Why Burke did not kill JonBenet

[Shylock]

For examply, Ubowski said he thought Patsy wrote the ransom note, but he wasn't prepared to say it in a court of law at 100%. That doesn't sound like "4.5 out of 5" to me, or that she "likely didn't write it." In fact, it is the exact opposite.

Exactly Cherokee! BlueCrab likes to take too much freedom with his handwriting facts:

*TWO of BlueCrab's six examiners were hired by the Ramseys so anything they said can be thrown out the window. The only thing worth noting is that even though they were PAID by Team Ramsey, they still were not willing to give Patsy a pass.

*Chet Ubowski knows Patsy wrote the note.

*Leonard Speckin said he could not identify Patsy as the author because of the disguised writing, but the odds some stranger broke into the house and wrote it are ZERO.

*Cina Wong says Patsy wrote the note.

*David Leadman says Patsy wrote the note.

*Gideon Epstein says Patsy wrote the note.

*Larry F. Siegler says Patsy wrote the note.

*Don Lacey says Patsy wote the note.

*Tom Miller says Patsy wrote the note.

*Donald Foster says Patsy wrote the note.

Anyone with EYES can look at the writing exemplars and see how they match Patsy's writing. And she was the only one who showed evidence of trying to change her writing style AFTER the crime--going as far as to cross-out a matching letter "a" when she wrote it by force of habit.

 

[BlueCrab]

Exactly Cherokee! BlueCrab likes to take too much freedom with his handwriting facts:

*TWO of BlueCrab's six examiners were hired by the Ramseys so anything they said can be thrown out the window. The only thing worth noting is that even though they were PAID by Team Ramsey, they still were not willing to give Patsy a pass.

*Chet Ubowski knows Patsy wrote the note.

*Leonard Speckin said he could not identify Patsy as the author because of the disguised writing, but the odds some stranger broke into the house and wrote it are ZERO.

*Cina Wong says Patsy wrote the note.

*David Leadman says Patsy wrote the note.

*Gideon Epstein says Patsy wrote the note.

*Larry F. Siegler says Patsy wrote the note.

*Don Lacey says Patsy wote the note.

*Tom Miller says Patsy wrote the note.

*Donald Foster says Patsy wrote the note.

Anyone with EYES can look at the writing exemplars and see how they match Patsy's writing. And she was the only one who showed evidence of trying to change her writing style AFTER the crime--going as far as to cross-out a matching letter "a" when she wrote it by force of habit.

Shylock,

Okay Shylock, we'll use your logic.

Let's see now, Ubowski was paid by the State of Colorado, so we can throw his analysis out of the window. Dusak was paid by the U.S. Secret Service, so we can throw his analysis out of the window. The rest of them were paid by either the Colorado Bureau of Investigation or by Darnay Hoffman, so we can throw their analyses out of the window. I'm not sure who paid Foster, but someone did, so we can throw his analysis out of the window.

Now, where are we? Oh yes -- getting paid for services rendered. The cops were all paid, so we can throw the case evidence out of the window. The D.A.'s staff was paid, so any criminal charges they come up with can be thrown out of the window. The judges were all paid, so anything they decide can be ignored and their orders thrown out of the window.

JMO

 

[Britt]

Now, where are we? Oh yes -- getting paid for services rendered. The cops were all paid, so we can throw the case evidence out of the window. The D.A.'s staff was paid, so any criminal charges they come up with can be thrown out of the window. The judges were all paid, so anything they decide can be ignored and their orders thrown out of the window.

Uh huh. Now let's add some common sense, not to mention a grasp of how the justice system works:

Public servants and justice system employees work for the people. The experts are hired and consulted to solve the crime, period. They have no stake in who the perp turns out to be (despite what Ramseyists and other idiotic conspiracists would have us believe).

"No stake in" = impartial.

The defense, on the other hand, works only for the suspects, who do have a stake in who the perp turns out to be. Duh.

"Stake in" = biased.

Two entirely different interests here, one of which is 100% SELF-interest.

Most of us would go with the impartial side.

 

[BlueCrab]

Uh huh. Now let's add some common sense, not to mention a grasp of how the justice system works:

Public servants and justice system employees work for the people. The experts are hired and consulted to solve the crime, period. They have no stake in who the perp turns out to be (despite what Ramseyists and other idiotic conspiracists would have us believe).

"No stake in" = impartial.

The defense, on the other hand, works only for the suspects, who do have a stake in who the perp turns out to be. Duh.

"Stake in" = biased.

Two entirely different interests here, one of which is 100% SELF-interest.

Most of us would go with the impartial side.

Britt,

How many bridges do you own?

JMO

 

[Britt]

For instance, the National Enquirer published an article on 1/20/04 "from a source close to the investigation" that the blood DNA sample found on JonBenet's underwear does not match the people who have been at the center of the case from the very beginning.

Among the individuals whose DNA does not match:

Chris Wolf

Bill McReynolds

John Ramsey

Patsy Ramsey

Gary Oliva

Why would they leave out that Burke's DNA didn't match? Burke's name is conspicuous by its absence in the above list because John, Patsy, and Burke were the only known people in the house that night.

Maybe that's significant and maybe not. Obviously it's only a partial list. The list also doesn't include John Andrew, Melinda, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh or Fleet White, does it? And what about the Paughs?

Maybe since LE didn't consider Burke a suspect any more than JAR and Melinda, listing him (and them) wasn't necessary.

 

[Britt]

How many bridges do you own?

lol... none, but don't ask about my beachfront property.

But y'know, if you can't see the huge conflict of interest between a defense expert and a state expert, maybe you'd like to help me unload some of my properties

 

[Shylock]

Okay Shylock, we'll use your logic.

No, let's be realistic BlueCrab. The two experts hired by the Ramseys were paid to say Patsy didn't write the ransom note--the same way John Douglas was paid by Team Ramsey to develop a profile of an intruder.

If you want to discount the reality of paid-for-opinions by Team Ramsey then I guess we can throw your whole BDI theory out the window because obviously John Douglas is right and an intruder did the crime.

 

[vicktor]

Not if they told him (and I bet they did) not to say anything to anyone for any reason. NO CHILD is going to quietly just go away from home esp when they are anticipating going to the airport, and not ask questions about why all those people are there, why the cops are there and where his sister is!



I disagree. Burke LIED to the cop who interviewed him while he was at the White's the very day this all happened. Burke has been in therapy for literally years according to his parents. Burke is/was a weird kid who smeared his own feces on the wall and talked to himself at school and described how he thought about his sister in a series of nintendo game type beeps (talk about detachment!) Burke was probably told to tell anyone who asked him if he heard anything that he was asleep. Kids who are almost 10 years old ask a zillion and one questions about things, esp things that are happening in and around their home unless their parents instruct them to keep their mouths shut.



You don't have kids do you? When kids are excited about upcoming events they usually don't fall right to sleep and sleep the entire night through. Often times they wake up in the middle of the night....

No, I don't have any kids, but I was 10 at one time. Maybe John told Burke he could play nintendo in his room til he got tired. He could have woken up later on, probably still didn't hear anything. Knowing a 10 year old, he was probably excited about flying regardless of how tired he was. John could have viewed this as being a pest, or maybe he would have enjoyed teaching Burke about flying. JB no doubt would have slept some.

Burke no doubt had questions before going over to the Whites. Either John explained a little of what happened or Burke asked a few before leaving. John would have asked him if he heard anything, and (assuming he didn't) might have said to tell whoever asked that he went to bed, didn't hear anything, then woke up hearing his parents that morning. What did Burke lie about to the BPD? Unless he was coached A LOT, how could he make it through questioning on the 26th by the BPD, without giving the appearance of withholding or lying?


Where did the info come from about being in therapy for years( one source mentioned it in a time frame of months), being weird, etc.? Its not surprizing a 10 year old would dodge a adult question about his sister. He wasn't prepared to handle it on his level. Kids involved in a traumatic situation will sometimes regress in some areas of their behavior.

 

[BlueCrab]

1. What did Burke lie about to the BPD?

2. Where did the info come from about being in therapy for years( one source mentioned it in a time frame of months), being weird, etc.?

victor,

1. Burke lied to the cops during his 3-day interview in late May and early June of 1998. He told them he was asleep in bed when his mom made the 911 call at 5:52 A.M. The enhanced 911 tape proved he was up and engaged in conversation with his parents at that time. John and Patsy, in their respective 3-day interviews in June of 1998, lied about the same thing in an obvious conspiratoral attempt among John, Patsy, and Burke, to distant Burke from the crime.

2. Burke has apparently been in therapy for years. Patsy Ramsey and Tom Haney from the 1998 interviews:

TH: "How about with the moving and all of that, has that caused some problems for him, change of schools?"

PR: "Yeah. And I have been in touch with the counselors and the teachers and everybody, alert to this. And they said that -- they are remarkably surprised at how well he is doing. He just makes friends and gets good grades."

TH: "So his adjustment's been pretty -- "

PR: "Been pretty good.

TH: "You mentioned I think when I asked you yesterday, had you seen an interview from last week with Burke. You said no?"

PR: "No."

TH: "There were like three days, and the first two days were pretty basic questions, but on the third day, there were questions where the discussion was around JonBenet and the death. And I am no psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor. He's curled up on his chair something like this, not sitting like this, but a chair like this, and he's half in a fetal position and it seems to be a struggle, a real difficult time. I am wondering if you noticed anything similar, any changes?"

PR: "Well, I may have -- I have had him in therapy just for this reason. So that, I mean, the therapist explained to me that -- that Burke may be trying to hold together and be real strong for John and I, you know. And because I was saying it seemed to me like he needs to let it out, you know. He said, well, children handle things differently, you know, than adults. And he doesn't -- he thinks Burke is just fine. So I have to just take him at -- I respect his opinion, Dr. Jaffe. But no, I have not -- I have not directly, you know, noticed anything."

TH: "Does it seem like he knows more than he's saying, and obviously he's not saying much?"

PR: "Right."

TH: "Like he's keeping something in, like something?"

PR: "Well, I think he does, you know, in our conversations when our friends call and when, you know, he has confrontations with the media and I am sure all that affects him. As far as something about who did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he would say."

TH: " Has that -- is that something that you have asked the -- Dr. Jaffe to explore?"

PR: "I don't know if I have directly asked him that. I don't -- "

TH: "And you know that's a thought?"

PR: "Yeah. Well, I knew that's -- I was presuming that's what they were doing last week, kind of seeing if he remembered anything."

TH: "And they were, yeah, but you know Dr. Jaffe and he works with him on a fairly regular basis?"

PR: "Right."

TH: "How often?"

PR: "Oh, every three weeks, maybe."

TH: "Okay. But a lot more than -- "

PR: "Sure, yes. Quite -- sure. I am quite sure he is alert to that. You know. If the thing would come up -- "

JMO

 

[K777angel]

victor,

1. Burke lied to the cops during his 3-day interview in late May and early June of 1998. He told them he was asleep in bed when his mom made the 911 call at 5:52 A.M. The enhanced 911 tape proved he was up and engaged in conversation with his parents at that time. John and Patsy, in their respective 3-day interviews in June of 1998, lied about the same thing in an obvious conspiratoral attempt among John, Patsy, and Burke, to distant Burke from the crime.

2. Burke has apparently been in therapy for years. Patsy Ramsey and Tom Haney from the 1998 interviews:

TH: "How about with the moving and all of that, has that caused some problems for him, change of schools?"

PR: "Yeah. And I have been in touch with the counselors and the teachers and everybody, alert to this. And they said that -- they are remarkably surprised at how well he is doing. He just makes friends and gets good grades."

TH: "So his adjustment's been pretty -- "

PR: "Been pretty good.

TH: "You mentioned I think when I asked you yesterday, had you seen an interview from last week with Burke. You said no?"

PR: "No."

TH: "There were like three days, and the first two days were pretty basic questions, but on the third day, there were questions where the discussion was around JonBenet and the death. And I am no psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor. He's curled up on his chair something like this, not sitting like this, but a chair like this, and he's half in a fetal position and it seems to be a struggle, a real difficult time. I am wondering if you noticed anything similar, any changes?"

PR: "Well, I may have -- I have had him in therapy just for this reason. So that, I mean, the therapist explained to me that -- that Burke may be trying to hold together and be real strong for John and I, you know. And because I was saying it seemed to me like he needs to let it out, you know. He said, well, children handle things differently, you know, than adults. And he doesn't -- he thinks Burke is just fine. So I have to just take him at -- I respect his opinion, Dr. Jaffe. But no, I have not -- I have not directly, you know, noticed anything."

TH: "Does it seem like he knows more than he's saying, and obviously he's not saying much?"

PR: "Right."

TH: "Like he's keeping something in, like something?"

PR: "Well, I think he does, you know, in our conversations when our friends call and when, you know, he has confrontations with the media and I am sure all that affects him. As far as something about who did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he would say."

TH: " Has that -- is that something that you have asked the -- Dr. Jaffe to explore?"

PR: "I don't know if I have directly asked him that. I don't -- "

TH: "And you know that's a thought?"

PR: "Yeah. Well, I knew that's -- I was presuming that's what they were doing last week, kind of seeing if he remembered anything."

TH: "And they were, yeah, but you know Dr. Jaffe and he works with him on a fairly regular basis?"

PR: "Right."

TH: "How often?"

PR: "Oh, every three weeks, maybe."

TH: "Okay. But a lot more than -- "

PR: "Sure, yes. Quite -- sure. I am quite sure he is alert to that. You know. If the thing would come up -- "

JMO

Wow Bluecrab - thanks for posting this exchange. I don't remember reading this before. Patsy sure stumbles around talk of Burke doesn't she?
Her statement "As far as something about who did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he would say."
She "doesn't THINK he knows?" What kind of a statement is that? You use that kind of language when there is room for DOUBT. Otherwise she would
say with confidence, "He does not know who did it."
Very interesting.

So often over the past few years when the subject of Burke has come up in interviews with the Ramseys - from Scott Ross of the 700 Club to even commments that Lin Wood has made - and the question of 'how he is doing' is raised - they seem to take a deep breath, squirm in their seats a little and pad their answers carefully with comments like they "worry about him when he is 40" and he is a "typical teenager" and the like.
I still say that there is SOMETHING fishy about their uprooting themselves and Burke from their proffessed "home" in Atlanta and starting over in Michigan. You don't do that to a 17 yr old teenage boy in high school without grave reasons. What were those reasons?
I hope the people of Michigan are asking that question of John Ramsey.
They deserve an answer.

 

[Britt]

Wow Bluecrab - thanks for posting this exchange. I don't remember reading this before.

Me, neither. Very interesting. Thank you, BC. What page is that on? Or was it part of the edited stuff?

 

[BlueCrab]

Me, neither. Very interesting. Thank you, BC. What page is that on? Or was it part of the edited stuff?

It had been edited out.

JMO

 

[VespaElf]

Something ,imo,happened in Atlanta but we'll never know what as I think the Ramseys tactic of sue the hell out of anyone who mentions Burke has scared off any sort of "journalistic inquiry".

I still belive Patsy wrote the note but Im starting to really belive that Burke is involved ,more involved than just lying to LE.
I think Hunter as good as told us and I think thats why the Grand Jury didn't come back with an indictment.THEY COULDNT because of Colorado law.
Other than knowing The Ramseys were guilty of, at the very least ,covering up what really happened I couldnt form a theory as to which Ramsey was the killer ,until now.I think there was ALOT going on in that family and theyd do anything to keep their secrets.I think Burke was involved in JBR's murder and his parents covered up for him(I dont think however Burke was the sole molester of JBR ).



I really wonder what Burke will be like,away at College far from the watchful eyes of John and Patsy....................

 

[K777angel]

Bluecrab - Do share other "edited" transcripts if possible.

The transcript I would love to see is the UN-edited one of John and Patsy's CNN interview on Jan. 1st, 1997.
Does anyone know where I can get a video copy of that interview as well?

Thanks,
~Angel~

 

[Britt]

I think there was ALOT going on in that family and theyd do anything to keep their secrets.I think Burke was involved in JBR's murder and his parents covered up for him(I dont think however Burke was the sole molester of JBR ).

I agree there was a lot going on in that family, which IMO was reflected in Burke's demeanor in the interview. I wouldn't be surprised if all three Ramseys were abusing JonBenet in some way or other. I think Patsy's use of JB as a little pageant doll was only the tip of the dysfunctional iceberg.

Another possibility is that the parent(s) abused Burke as well as JonBenet.

Burke's partial fetal position reaction looks like plain old fear, doesn't it? It could mean he was involved, or it could just be fear of his parent(s). He knew they had lied about that night; he knew HE lied because they forced him to; he knew the family was covering up something even if he didn't know what it was; he may've suspected his parents killed his sister and he was terrified -- of them, of the police, of the truth.

I don't think his response necessarily means HE was involved in JB's abuse and/or death. Maybe, maybe not.

Many people think Burke was/is weird because he was involved in JB's death. Maybe he's "weird" because he was also an abused child, just like JonBenet. And he knows JB was abused.

IMO Patsy's statement I don't think he knows means she and John don't think he knows what THEY did. Obviously, that statement makes no sense in any kind of intruder scenario and IMO it makes no sense in a BDI scenario either... unless he has a dissociative identity (multiple personality) disorder, in which case that "don't think he knows" would make sense.

BlueCrab - Thanks very much for sharing that outtake with us. Got any more?

 

[Shylock]

IMO Patsy's statement I don't think he knows means she and John don't think he knows what THEY did. Obviously, that statement makes no sense in any kind of intruder scenario and IMO it makes no sense in a BDI scenario either...

I think that statement reflects the fact that the Ramseys are just in total denial. Just like O.J., after tell the same lie over and over again they actually believe it themselves. An all-out effort was made from Day-1 to brainwash Burke into believing there really was an intruder--and in order to accomplish that feat they had to believe it themselves.

 

[K777angel]

Speaking of handwriting and the Ramseys - I was visiting John Ramseys campaign website and I had to do a double take while looking at one of the photos! In the background is a huge campaign sign that has the name
"RAMSEY" in big letters. It looks almost EXACTLY like the "Ramsey" in the
"Mr. Ramsey" written on the ransom note. It made me wonder if Patsy designed the sign and wrote the "Ramsey" herself!
It is also right up at the top of the webpage in bold letters.
Check it out.

~Angel~

 

[twizzler333]

I have to say this.....I cannot stand it anymore.

First of all, the strangulation was what caused her to die. Secondary to that was the head trauma. Look, when a skull is cracked in that manner and a human being is still alived there is a tremendous amount of hemorrhaging and blood would have been EVERYWHERE!!! The petechial hemorrhages around the ligature on her neck are there because she had blood flowing at the time she was being strangled. She was alive! They choked her to death! She had petechial hemorrhages in her eyes, and around her neck. Some of the markings on her neck could very well be consistent with her attempting to remove the ligature, and her fingernails could have caused small scratches there as well.

A skull fracture of that magnitude would have caused bleeding out her nose, mouth, ears and the actual wound itself. Massive amounts of blood, people! The fact that there was so little blood in her hair, and no scalp trauma tells you right there that the head trauma was secondary to the neck trauma. There was some hemorrhaging of the brain (subdural and subarachnoid) which is consistent with the skull fracture POSTmortem!!!!!! The ears were not full of blood, her nares were not covered in blood. Burke nor Patsy struck this baby over the head in a rage or to keep her quiet and then decided to stage a strangulation/sexual assault. It is NOT possible!!!!!!!!!

While, in my opinion, they had NOTHING to do with it, for arguments sake, it is possible that they are involved in some cover up, but this is not the way it happened!!!! Chronic inflammation of her vaginal mucosa can be the result of chronic vaginitis. Let me tell you, vaginitis itches!!!!!!! It itches a LOT (women know- yeast infections itch) and what do children do when they get an itch? Bingo! That does NOT mean she was sexually abused prior to this terrible murder. She was sexually abused at the time of her murder with a stick (presumably from the paint brush) but it was not a very invasive penetration. Her hymen was not completely disrupted, I believe is what I read. Will look into that again.

I am just going on the facts of the case, not the heresay and what is written in papers and books. Those sources are not reliable. I even doubt some of the things regarding the handwriting analysis on the internet. That can be manipulated to suit anyone's belief with a simple program on a pc. I know. Seen it before!

I am venting I suppose, but I could not take another minute of reading the Burke/Patsy bashing in her skull theory. This is just my opinion.

 

[K777angel]

I have to say this.....I cannot stand it anymore.

First of all, the strangulation was what caused her to die. Secondary to that was the head trauma.

The fact that there was so little blood in her hair, .

Uh, twizzler333 - there was no blood in JonBenet's hair. You might want to check your facts.

Also, the head blow most certainly COULD have come first. The fact that there was not alot of bleeding does not discount this possibility - and indeed likelihood - that JonBenet was first struck in the head in a fit of rage and then with little life left in her, the perp thinking that she was already dead and needing a visible way to "explain" why she was dead - concocted the string and cord around her neck (and loosely tied at her wrists) to lead investigators to believe she was ONLY strangled to death. The head wound was HIDDEN. (As was the vaginal trauma by the way...) Nothing on JonBenet gave an obvious indication of how she died. So one was invented.
Unbeknownst to the perp though - she DID have a little life left in her after the head blow. Enough to cause some petechial hemorraging and neck bruises - but NOT your typical damage usually done to the tongue and to the hyoid bone and strap muscles of the neck. JonBenet had none of these injuries typically found in strangulation.
Even the coroner himself was hesitant to list one or the other injury as cause of death - so he listed BOTH.
Because BOTH did cause her death. Much to the perps' horror as he/she thought it was the head blow only.....

The FBI said this crime not only was staged - but had staging within staging as well.

You are not correct about head blows always producing all the blood you mentioned.

 

[Nehemiah]

I am just going on the facts of the case, not the heresay and what is written in papers and books. Those sources are not reliable.

With all due respect, where are you finding the facts, if not in papers/books?

Imo