Why Burke did not kill JonBenet

[Nehemiah]

Fleet ,if anyone,was the odd player that morning, much of what he did could raise an eyebrow if we look more deeply. He ,likely, insisted on taking Burke ! IMO

What do you base that on? Is there a source that lends that thought? Just wondering as I have never read that it was Fleet's idea, although I'm not saying that it wasn't.

IMO

 

[sissi]

Sissi,

I can agree with that opinion. One of my BDI theories has an older accomplice with Burke. I believe the ransom note reflects the writings of a male of about 14 years old.

However, Sissi, you cannot factor out a Ramsey directly involved in this crime. The Ramseys would not be lying, refusing to fully cooperate, and covering up for a non-family member unless a family member was also involved.

JMO

Yep, it does seem to be the writing of a young teen. Could we take it a step farther and consider what kind of teen? ....one obsessed with videos and violent tapes, one who has little if any social interaction with peers?

The Ramseys weren't lying, they weren't refusing to cooperate and were not covering for a family member or for anyone. They saw the focus aiming at them and opted out to ,instead, find the killer. IMO they didn't want to be a part of an investigation that they KNEW wasn't going to find the person responsible. How frustrating this must have been to continually go over pineapple and bedwetting incidents when they KNEW they didn't kill their child. I can only imagine the hopelessness they must have felt when the questions didn't include important things that could have jogged their memories. There have been cases solved with questions as simple as ,"who walked a dog past your house everyday", but no, nothing in the questioning addressed the exposures of Jonbenet to anyone outside of that house. There are those that can be blamed for the failure of solving this case , they include the Mayor and LE of Boulder. The PR would be bad for Boulder, a killer was loose in their pristine community and no one was willing to accept this truth . How convenient for Boulder that the Ramseys were "aliens", lord a southern woman and a beauty queen to boot! They musta' dunnit!
IMO

 

[Jayelles]

How convenient for Boulder that the Ramseys were "aliens", lord a southern woman and a beauty queen to boot! They musta' dunnit!
IMO

I think the fact that they avoided police interviews, refused polygraphs and expected to be given an automatic "pass" because of the "type of people" they were ... had more to do with causing people to suspect them than the fact they were not from Boulder and that patsy had won a couple of beauty contests!

I don't understand why they couldn't just give police their unconditional co-operation. No-one begrudged them legal representation. They could have had a whole team of lawyers in those interviews with them but only the Ramseys could answer many of those all-important questions about the events surrounding Jonbenet's murder.

I've seen case after case where innocent people have demanded polygraphs to 'prove' they were telling the truth. The Ramseys say their lawyers advised them not to take polygraphs. I'd love to know EXACTLY what their lawyers said to them regarding that.

 

[Nehemiah]

Every murder investigation focuses on the center and moves outward. According to everything we've read, the Rs didn't cooperate enough to move the investigation outward. I agree, Jayelles, only they had the answers to some of the questions that were asked, and when they wouldn't/didn't/couldn't (pick one) answer, that thwarted the effort to search outside the center for the intruder.

My cousin's husband hired hitmen to murder her. The investigation was the same: center and then outward. There were those naysayers who badmouthed the police because they didn't "look" for the random murderers. But the police never got past the husband because he avoided their questions and didn't satisfy their investigation enough to move beyond him. He just didn't have the money to lawyer up in the way that would have kept the police at bay for very long. I see the Ramsey case as the same. They didn't cooperate fully enough to get past the center. One can chalk that up to bad advice, or grief, or guilty, or whatever, but I think it stymied the system. It was akin to riding a stationary bike. IMO

 

[sissi]

Then you don't believe this....from RMN
Boulder police officers interviewed them throughout Dec. 26, 1996, the day JonBenet's body was found.

Police questioned them both Dec. 27 and John again Dec. 28. Officers were with the Ramseys 24 hours a day from 6 a.m. Dec. 26 through 2 p.m. Dec. 29, when the Ramseys left for the funeral in Atlanta.

Police questioned Burke Ramsey on Dec. 26. The conversation was tape-recorded without either parent present and without parental consent. A police psychologist interviewed Burke on Jan. 6. Burke was interviewed again, over three days, in May 1998.

Handwriting samples were given by John (Dec. 26, 28, Jan. 5, 1997); Patsy (Dec. 28, Jan. 4, 1997, Feb. 28, April 12, May 20), and Burke (Dec. 28).

After the Ramseys returned from JonBenet's funeral in Atlanta, their attorneys offered to make them available for a joint interview Jan. 18, 1997. "The police declined this offer and stated in writing that such an interview would not 'be helpful' because 'the time for interviewing John and Patsy as witnesses who could provide critical information that would be helpful in the initial stages of our investigation has passed."'

Okay...they were told the TIME HAD PASSED..so JUST WHAT DID THE BPD WANT?

 

[twizzler333]

From what I have read they weren't really avoiding anything. They gave hair, DNA samples before she was even buried, they weren't ASKED to come down that day, they were asked to move to their friends house so LE could finally secure the crime scene (something that should have been done from the time they got there that morning- a kidnapping is considered a crime too- should have secured the scene). They knew she was dead, they wanted to plan a burial for her, Eller wanted to hold the body hostage (which is absolutely absurd), by the time they actually buried her the media had got hold of this story and ran with it, then it was total chaos, no wonder they were afraid to do anything.

IF this case had been handled properly from the get-go, I believe they would have cooperated just as we might expect one to cooperate, but things did not happen the way it should have from the start and thus the ball went a-rollin' in the wrong direction right off the bat.

Once the lawyers and DA, etc were involved that is when things got all messy, cannot necessarily blame the R's for that. We all know how sometimes lawyers screw everything up! Don't we?

 

[Nehemiah]

The lawyers were involved by 7 p.m. of Dec. 26th and the DA's Trip DeMuth was assigned that very afternoon by Pete Hofstrom.

IMO

 

[Ivy]

If the Ramseys had cooperated and quit stalling and agreed to be interviewed, Eller wouldn't have felt the need to "hold the body hostage." What was absurd is that the Ramseys' butts weren't hauled to police headquarters pronto so they could be interrogated--separately.

 

[K777angel]

This nonsense about the police "talking with" the Ramseys and "questioning" them on the 26th, 27th and 28th demands clarification!
First of all, on the 26th the police were acting under the assumption that this was a "kidnapping." The body was found at 1:05pm and the Ramseys were gone just an hour later. No interview or interrogation EVER happened. Not that day, not the next day nor the next.
Patsy was "too distraught" they said. Neither were in a condition to talk to the police they said.
Then came the lawyers. Who made SURE they didn't talk to the police at all.
And they came on board the night of the 26th.

So it is very manipulative and dishonest for John Ramsey and his entourage to try and make the claim that they spoke to and cooperated with the police and were "questioned" all those days. To him being questioned might mean
"John where is your restroom?" Does NOT mean they sat them down, separately (like ANY other average American couple would have to do) and questioned them in detail about the hours leading up to the body being discovered. Didn't happen. And the Ramseys KNOW it.

Yet the Ramseys had plenty of time on Jan. 1, 1997 (just one day after they buried their murdered daughter) to answer all kinds of questions from Brian Cabell on CNN in front of the whole nation.
What a sham. Avoid the police but focus on public opinion and how they can influence it.

 

[BrotherMoon]

All this is my opinion, and may change by the next post.

Fence post?

 

[KATKAT19691]

It's possible Burke inflicted the head trauma and was immediately sent to his room and only in his absence did JonBenet lapse into an uncounscious state. Both parents committed the mercy killing and staged the rest to protect Burke with Burke unaware JonBenet was mortally wounded. Burke was as manipulated as the general public.

By now Burke has surely figured it out thought may not be able to admitt it to himself.

In my town about 20 years ago there was a murder of a 5 year old girl. She was in my oldest neice's class. I live in a pretty small town, so when her mother reported her missing everyone came out and looked for her. On the 3rd day she was missing the body was found in a pasture next to the school. Police thought this was strange because many people had searched this area. Want to know what happened to her?
Well, when police told her mother that they thought she was involved her son bucked up and told police he knew what happened to his sister. He said they were playing on the front porch he threw a laso around her neck and pulled, he threw the rope over a beam and lifted her up. He said he had no idea this would kill her since he had only done it for a second. What happened was when he pulled the rope back and she fell it broke her neck. He then took the body and put it under the house. Two days later he confessed to his mother and told her where gloria was. The mother took the body wrapped it in a blanket and put it in the pasture to protect her son. The blanket she was wrapped in was on the couch everyday the police were there and one remembered it.
It was discovered that gloria had been sexually abused and it was the land lord that fessed up to that. My point is her brother was only 7 1/2 years old. Not only did he kill his 5 year old sister, but he hide the body. He also had police convinced that a man in a pick up had picked her up by the school. People do not give children enough credit. Some can be quit smart when the sit. calls for it. So do not under est. that Burke COULD had killed JBR, and do not doute, that Patsy would cover up for her remaining child. Being a mother, I can not say that if my child did the same I would not protect him. As a matter of fact I would take the blame for him if needed.

Something to consider.

Also, her mother was on T.V. day one and day two praying to God that her child be returned and safe. She asked everyone to light a candel for gloria and to pray for her. I don't think this made her a psyco. Only someone who believed in God. Brothermoon, just assumes everyone who believes in god is like our neighbors in the East. He does not understand, though I do know why that someone one who believes very strong in god is not a nut. I do understand that he views this as someone who would believe in Santa Clause, it is the same to him. So everyone try to understand his view even if it seems silly, because to him you thinking there is a god is silly.

Kat
IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

My point is her brother was only 7 1/2 years old. Not only did he kill his 5 year old sister, but he hid the body ..... People do not give children enough credit.

Kat,

Thank you for that story. I too wish people would recognize the devious abilities of children, whether it be mischief or murder.

JMO

 

[Nehemiah]

Kat,

Thank you for that story. I too wish people would recognize the devious abilities of children, whether it be mischief or murder.

JMO

BlueCrab, this is off topic, but is the new hurricane headed your way?

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab, this is off topic, but is the new hurricane headed your way?

Nehemiah,

Thanks for asking. Ivan, a category 5 hurricane (they don't get any stronger), will be headed for the Florida panhandle if it maintains its present course, so the eye will likely miss us. I live in southwest Florida. But if Ivan turns sharply east after entering the Gulf, it can score a direct hit on us. Schools and government offices are closed today so everyone can get ready for possible high winds on Tuesday.

JMO

 

[Jayelles]

There are numerous recorded cases of children who have brutally murdered other children. Mary Bell and the Jamie Bulger cases are just two of the British ones - notable because they involved torture and sexual sadism. The killers in both cases were only 9/10 years old.

Children can and do kill.

Would I cover for one of my children if he/she killed another? I really don't know. If it had been an accident or if the killer-child hadn't realised he/she was responsible .... possibly. I don't think I would cover for my child if he/she had killed a sibling in cold blood and knew exactly what he/she had done.

I don't believe Burke Ramsey killed his sister but I do agree with others that he was physically capable of killing her and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves on.

My son has been able to overcome me in fun-wrestling since he was in primary school. Not that we indulge heartily or frequently in fun-wrestling but you know how things can occasionally escalate

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't believe Burke Ramsey killed his sister but I do agree with others that he was physically capable of killing her and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves on.

My son has been able to overcome me in fun-wrestling since he was in primary school. )

Jayelles,

I can vouch for that. I'm 5' 10", 185 pounds, and in excellent shape. But when my hyper-active 10-year-old grandson gets out of control it takes every ounce of my strength to settle him down. He can hit with a fist just as hard as any man.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

KATKAT, your post #171 is excellent. It illustrates the dynamics that may have come into play in the JonBenet case.

I am a BDIer who thinks that John and Patsy may have initially considered removing the body from the house but changed their minds for any number of reasons...one reason being that they couldn't bear the thought of dumping the body of their precious daughter somewhere, knowing that animals might find it. I think the note was written before they changed their minds about removing the body. When I read the note with that in mind, it makes sense.

imo

 

[BrotherMoon]

Kat,

Thank you for that story. I too wish people would recognize the devious abilities of children, whether it be mischief or murder.

JMO

This is something I've been harping on for years, only in less prosaic terms.

Many of the characteristic behaviors of sociopaths and psychoapths are due to failure at adaptation, socially and psychologically with the result being infantile retentiveness. Infants and young children are amoral, having not yet developed an ego. Once a person does develop an ego and can make moral decisions there is the possibility of moral transgressions and psychological regressions.

This has been one of my major points: Patsy was in a psychological regression, facing major developmental issues she did not face and resolve satisfactorily at the appropriate age in favor of developing a social persona to gain identity and acceptance. Patsy fused her identity with JonBenet and attempted to resolve her inner conflicts by proxy through using JonBenet.

Sorry these things are over most of your heads, but some of you may be able to actually read about them in books written by professionals with education and experience. The subjects are; Borderline Personality Disorder, Pathological Narcissism. Dissociative Identity Disorder and Psychosis.

And guess what? The subject of infantile amorality and deadly violence does come up.

 

[sissi]

Brother Moon, do you have a psychopath in your life? I DO! Patsy was Patsy, she may not have been the brightest bulb, however she was an achiever who helped her husband climb that ladder, helped her children thrive academically and emotionally, was a good friend to many, a good wife ,daughter and sister. She gave of herself,not for profit butshe, as all of us who are blessed, willingly shared her gifts of time and talents to benefit those not so "lucky". She didn't pretend to be anything, she was herself. Had she been a psychopath she would have ditched the glitter and bought the birkenstocks and blended herself into the Boulder community. Psychopaths rip the heart out of their friends,lovers and family. Psychopathy doesn't rear it's ugly head and make you kill your child in one crazed act. Psychopaths tease their victims like cats playing with mice, wounding them each and every day in every conceivable way. Every wife, child, sister ,brother who "owns" a psychopath can testify to the malignant force they have on every one they touch; they do not love, they do not share, they clearly do not care, IT'S not something you can in retrospect say "he musta been a psychopath", it's palpable, it's clear, ya can't miss it, and you can't do anything about it!
They CAN NOT BE FIXED!

 

[BrotherMoon]

Brother Moon, do you have a psychopath in your life? I DO! Patsy was Patsy, she may not have been the brightest bulb, however she was an achiever who helped her husband climb that ladder, helped her children thrive academically and emotionally, was a good friend to many, a good wife ,daughter and sister. She gave of herself,not for profit butshe, as all of us who are blessed, willingly shared her gifts of time and talents to benefit those not so "lucky". She didn't pretend to be anything, she was herself. Had she been a psychopath she would have ditched the glitter and bought the birkenstocks and blended herself into the Boulder community. Psychopaths rip the heart out of their friends,lovers and family. Psychopathy doesn't rear it's ugly head and make you kill your child in one crazed act. Psychopaths tease their victims like cats playing with mice, wounding them each and every day in every conceivable way. Every wife, child, sister ,brother who "owns" a psychopath can testify to the malignant force they have on every one they touch; they do not love, they do not share, they clearly do not care, IT'S not something you can in retrospect say "he musta been a psychopath", it's palpable, it's clear, ya can't miss it, and you can't do anything about it!
They CAN NOT BE FIXED!

Are you done with the straw man? I don't think she is a psychopath, rather a borderline and/or narcissist with sociopathic tendencies.

If psychopthy is clear to you, you owe it to society to work with law enforcement and/or psychiatric medicine. My bet is you'd get laughed out of any such institution (or offered residency), just like I laugh at you.