Why deny?

[Nuisanceposter]

Why would the housekeeper say that she saw those Size 12's in JB's pantie drawer?? That's the only reason that I suspected that they were in her drawers. Unless the housekeeper lied.

I agree about her not ever being dressed in them either, while conscious or alive.

Did LHP say the ones in JB's drawer were the day of the underwear, meaning JB's size, or did she say that they were the size 12/14 day of the week underwear?

 

[Ames]

Did LHP say the ones in JB's drawer were the day of the underwear, meaning JB's size, or did she say that they were the size 12/14 day of the week underwear?

From what I read...she said that it was the 12/14 ones....but, maybe she was mistaken. And I can't even remember where I read it at....it may not have even been a reliable source.

 

[coloradokares]

Why would the housekeeper say that she saw those Size 12's in JB's pantie drawer?? That's the only reason that I suspected that they were in her drawers. Unless the housekeeper lied.

I agree about her not ever being dressed in them either, while conscious or alive.

I dont doubt you in the least but I have never see where LHP says those size 12's were in the panty drawer that I can remember anyway.. Would it be a lot of trouble to see that link or where it said that . I mean it blows me away!

 

[rashomon]

I also agree. The FAO Schwartz packages were opened in the basement when the size 12's were found.

DeeDee, sorry if I'm misreading your post, but didn't the police find no size 12 panties in their house search? Or do you mean by size '12s', the pair which JonBenet was wearing?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, sorry if I'm misreading your post, but didn't the police find no size 12 panties in their house search? Or do you mean by size '12s', the pair which JonBenet was wearing?

Yes, rash, you are misunderstanding my post. You are correct, however, that the police did not find any size 12 panties in the house. But that does not mean they were not there. They WERE there, but in the basement, where they had been wrapped as a gift for JBR's cousin Jenny. PR and/or JR unwrapped them and took the Wednesday pair out to put on their dead/dying daughter. Then the remainder of the panties in the package were taken from house before the police searched it, either by the Rs, who left the house that night UNSEARCHED wearing heavy coats. The police did NOT do a thorough search that day. There were searches later. Or the panties were removed along with other evidence, by Aunt P when she was allowed to enter the home ALONE to remove whatever the Rs asked her to.
Months later, the R's handed size 12 panties over to LE. I don't know if these were the same panties, because the Rs could easily have bought another set. Keep in mind if it WAS the same set, there should have been only 6 pairs -one was missing- the Wednesday pair was the one put on JBR.

 

[Ames]

I dont doubt you in the least but I have never see where LHP says those size 12's were in the panty drawer that I can remember anyway.. Would it be a lot of trouble to see that link or where it said that . I mean it blows me away!

CK..I don't even remember where I read it, and it may not even be a reliable source.

 

[hellolovely]

Both JR and PR said all along that Burke slept through it all and had to be awakened.

The 911 call that was made by PR on Dec. 26, 1996 - was enhanced. And Burke's voice was on it - at 5:51 a.m.

I mean, how do you get this wrong? Was he awake or wasn't he?



http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm



Since the murder of JonBenet, the widespread belief has been that John or Patsy Ramsey is the killer. These suspicions ratcheted up 19 months later when word came of the enhancement of the original 911 call on Dec. 26, 1996.

The Ramseys had always maintained that Burke Ramsey slept through the entire grisly episode, until John Ramsey and Fleet White awakened him, several hours after the police arrived at the Ramsey residence. That was why the police allowed Burke to be taken away from the Ramsey house – to Fleet White's house – in mid-morning, after being "awakened." It's been reported that Burke walked past all the police, and assembled people, without asking what was going on. As he left, he took with him one of his Christmas presents, a Nintendo game. On the way to Fleet White's house, Burke talked about his Nintendo game.

However, when Patsy Ramsey called 911 at 5:51 a.m., Dec. 26, 1996, she failed to hang the phone up immediately.

The tape of that call had been sent to a California sound laboratory for enhancement.

Patsy Ramsey is said to be heard saying, "Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus." Then she fumbled with the phone, trying to hang it up.

Prior to the phone being hung up, a voice in the background, described as Burke Ramsey's, is said to be heard, followed by John Ramsey saying, "We weren't speaking to you."

Burke Ramsey: "But what did you find?"

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, rash, you are misunderstanding my post. You are correct, however, that the police did not find any size 12 panties in the house. But that does not mean they were not there. They WERE there, but in the basement, where they had been wrapped as a gift for JBR's cousin Jenny. PR and/or JR unwrapped them and took the Wednesday pair out to put on their dead/dying daughter. Then the remainder of the panties in the package were taken from house before the police searched it, either by the Rs, who left the house that night UNSEARCHED wearing heavy coats. The police did NOT do a thorough search that day. There were searches later. Or the panties were removed along with other evidence, by Aunt P when she was allowed to enter the home ALONE to remove whatever the Rs asked her to.
Months later, the R's handed size 12 panties over to LE. I don't know if these were the same panties, because the Rs could easily have bought another set. Keep in mind if it WAS the same set, there should have been only 6 pairs -one was missing- the Wednesday pair was the one put on JBR.

DeeDee249,
So the police failed to find any gift-wrapped underwear in the basement or upstairs in JonBenet's bedroom?

So who retrieved the size-12 underwear and why, since it they were allegedly returned at a later date, what is the percentage here?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
So the police failed to find any gift-wrapped underwear in the basement or upstairs in JonBenet's bedroom?

So who retrieved the size-12 underwear and why, since it they were allegedly returned at a later date, what is the percentage here?

.

The police found partially unwrapped gift boxes. No size 12 underwear. MONTHS later after they moved back to Atlanta, the Rs sent the size 12's to police, saying they had "just found them". The panties could have been either snuck out of the house that night with one of the Rs or cronies, OR could have been retrieved by PR sister when she made her mammoth raid on the house, without police supervision. LE waited OUTSIDE. The Rs wanted funeral clothes, but she just HAD to bring the golf bag that JR "NEEDED". In Winter. Before the funeral. (Tryin' to get a few holes in, JR?) I don't understand what you mean by "percentages" but I think police didn't find them in the house search because the search was not as thorough as it should have been (The DA's office demanded the Rs be treated as "victims, not suspects". And the Rs were allowed to leave the house UNSEARCHED wearing heavy coats. Kids cotton undies are small and these were packed in a small plastic tube. I've seen Bloomies' kids' undies. The tube is small enought to fit in a coat pocket.

 

[UKGuy]

The police found partially unwrapped gift boxes. No size 12 underwear. MONTHS later after they moved back to Atlanta, the Rs sent the size 12's to police, saying they had "just found them". The panties could have been either snuck out of the house that night with one of the Rs or cronies, OR could have been retrieved by PR sister when she made her mammoth raid on the house, without police supervision. LE waited OUTSIDE. The Rs wanted funeral clothes, but she just HAD to bring the golf bag that JR "NEEDED". In Winter. Before the funeral. (Tryin' to get a few holes in, JR?) I don't understand what you mean by "percentages" but I think police didn't find them in the house search because the search was not as thorough as it should have been (The DA's office demanded the Rs be treated as "victims, not suspects". And the Rs were allowed to leave the house UNSEARCHED wearing heavy coats. Kids cotton undies are small and these were packed in a small plastic tube. I've seen Bloomies' kids' undies. The tube is small enought to fit in a coat pocket.

DeeDee249,
Sure I've seen Jayelle's picture of the bloomingdales. So you are stating the police found partially unwrapped gift boxes, but no size 12 underwear?

That means the police did search and did find something, but you are stating there was no size 12 underwear, is this correct?

Percentage means what is the advantage, it can be seen as the opposite of the risk factor, e.g. the Ramsey's remove the size-12's thus leaving an empty gift-wrapped container, then at a later date they return them. Also Patsy states she purchased them, gave them to JonBenet, and placed them in her underwear drawer. So why remove them as per Patsy's sisters house raid?


Something is inconsistent here.


.

 

[rashomon]

DeeDee249,
Sure I've seen Jayelle's picture of the bloomingdales. So you are stating the police found partially unwrapped gift boxes, but no size 12 underwear?

That means the police did search and did find something, but you are stating there was no size 12 underwear, is this correct?

Percentage means what is the advantage, it can be seen as the opposite of the risk factor, e.g. the Ramsey's remove the size-12's thus leaving an empty gift-wrapped container, then at a later date they return them. Also Patsy states she purchased them, gave them to JonBenet, and placed them in her underwear drawer. So why remove them as per Patsy's sisters house raid?

Something is inconsistent here.

UKGuy,

Suppose JonBenet had been wearing her size 4-6 Wednesday pair. This pair was destroyed because it got incriminating forensic evidence on it. Down in the basement, Patsy then took a pair from the larger size 12-set to put on her and hid the rest, so that the investigators should think it belonged to the (smaller) set which already was in her drawers.
I don't think Patsy, when quickly putting on in the size 12s on JonBenet in the poorly lit basement, was really aware of how big they would look on JonBenet. Nor did she think about the size tag imo, or had any idea of how closely the police would later look at those size 12s. Which is why she got so flustered in the interveiw when asked about them - she became aware tht she had made a big mistake by putting on the size 12s, and now had no choice but to lie about being in JonBenet's drawers because she "might" have given them to her. Bu no size 12s were found there.

Another explanation: since virtualy all laundered pairs contained stains from prior soiling, Patsy may have wanted to put fresh underwear on JonBenet to avoid any association with a possible soiling problem. In terms of the pair of jeans lying in JB's room inside out which had traces of soiling, Patsy may have overlooked it in all her haste and panic. The whole staging was a mess anyway. Geez, they even forgot to stage a point of entry, something which could be easily done.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Sure I've seen Jayelle's picture of the bloomingdales. So you are stating the police found partially unwrapped gift boxes, but no size 12 underwear?

That means the police did search and did find something, but you are stating there was no size 12 underwear, is this correct?

Percentage means what is the advantage, it can be seen as the opposite of the risk factor, e.g. the Ramsey's remove the size-12's thus leaving an empty gift-wrapped container, then at a later date they return them. Also Patsy states she purchased them, gave them to JonBenet, and placed them in her underwear drawer. So why remove them as per Patsy's sisters house raid?


Something is inconsistent here.


.

There is nothing inconsistent- just confusing maybe. Let me try a bit to make it clearer:
1. JR/PR needed to change the original panties because they likely had significant blood on them, as there was enough bleeding to cause her thighs to need wiping. This was found by the coroner.
2. The identical panties, but in a larger size 12 were right there handy in the basement wrapped as a gift.
3. The stager knew where the new panties were, unwrapped them, put the larger ones on JBR AFTER wiping her down. They did not think anyone would notice they were too large.
4. The rest of the set of panties, AND the plastic container, were removed from the house BEFORE the searches, either the night of the 26th by one of the Rs, or by Aunt P in her "recovery" mission to the house.
5. Therefore the police found NO PANTIES, NO PLASTIC CONTAINER. There were NO size 12 panties found in her drawer, though PR said that's where they were. They weren't found because PR was lying, and the panties were never put in there. She was just trying to fabricate a reason for her daughter to be wearing them. She was trying to give the impression that JRB had worn them to the White's, and went to bed with them on. This is impossible, because the autopsy showed her pubic area and thighs had been wiped of blood. Of she'd been wearing the size 12s all day, they would have had much more blood on them then the few drops that was found (which the Rs did not know had happened).
6. PR did admit buying those larger panties. It would be an impossible coincidence for an intruder to have brought with them the SAME kind of panties in the SAME size 12 which PR admitted she bought for a niece.
7. The Rs sent the panties later because PR knew LE knew she had bought them, so it would be even more suspicious for them to disappear. The fact that there WERE none of those size 12 panties found AFTER PR already admitted she bought them just would point right to her as far as who redressed the body in the larger panties. It was just too suspicious for the Rs to ignore. They HAD to come up with the size 12s eventually.
Because whether they were new and still wrapped as a gift, or whether they had been opened and put in JBR's panty drawer, they should STILL have been in the house, and they were not. So the Rs sent them later, saying "oh, look, we found them." They had them because they were the ones who removed them from the house.
To put it as simply as possible- The Rs had to come up with those panties somehow because they admitted buying them. The fact that LE couldn't find them in the house is suspicious in itself.

 

[JMO8778]

There is nothing inconsistent- just confusing maybe. Let me try a bit to make it clearer:
1. JR/PR needed to change the original panties because they likely had significant blood on them, as there was enough bleeding to cause her thighs to need wiping. This was found by the coroner.
2. The identical panties, but in a larger size 12 were right there handy in the basement wrapped as a gift.
3. The stager knew where the new panties were, unwrapped them, put the larger ones on JBR AFTER wiping her down. They did not think anyone would notice they were too large.
4. The rest of the set of panties, AND the plastic container, were removed from the house BEFORE the searches, either the night of the 26th by one of the Rs, or by Aunt P in her "recovery" mission to the house.
5. Therefore the police found NO PANTIES, NO PLASTIC CONTAINER. There were NO size 12 panties found in her drawer, though PR said that's where they were. They weren't found because PR was lying, and the panties were never put in there. She was just trying to fabricate a reason for her daughter to be wearing them. She was trying to give the impression that JRB had worn them to the White's, and went to bed with them on. This is impossible, because the autopsy showed her pubic area and thighs had been wiped of blood. Of she'd been wearing the size 12s all day, they would have had much more blood on them then the few drops that was found (which the Rs did not know had happened).
6. PR did admit buying those larger panties. It would be an impossible coincidence for an intruder to have brought with them the SAME kind of panties in the SAME size 12 which PR admitted she bought for a niece.
7. The Rs sent the panties later because PR knew LE knew she had bought them, so it would be even more suspicious for them to disappear. The fact that there WERE none of those size 12 panties found AFTER PR already admitted she bought them just would point right to her as far as who redressed the body in the larger panties. It was just too suspicious for the Rs to ignore. They HAD to come up with the size 12s eventually.
Because whether they were new and still wrapped as a gift, or whether they had been opened and put in JBR's panty drawer, they should STILL have been in the house, and they were not. So the Rs sent them later, saying "oh, look, we found them." They had them because they were the ones who removed them from the house.
To put it as simply as possible- The Rs had to come up with those panties somehow because they admitted buying them. The fact that LE couldn't find them in the house is suspicious in itself.

well done !!

 

[JMO8778]

To put it as simply as possible- The Rs had to come up with those panties somehow because they admitted buying them. The fact that LE couldn't find them in the house is suspicious in itself.

In any OTHER murder case,that would have been PROOF that evidence was hidden and removed from the house...but ohhh no......not in this one !!

 

[DeeDee249]

In any OTHER murder case,that would have been PROOF that evidence was hidden and removed from the house...but ohhh no......not in this one !!

Spot on. Of course, a dead child found in the basement of her home with the family home at the time of death would ALSO be evidence that someone in the family killed the child. But not in THIS case.

 

[UKGuy]

There is nothing inconsistent- just confusing maybe. Let me try a bit to make it clearer:
1. JR/PR needed to change the original panties because they likely had significant blood on them, as there was enough bleeding to cause her thighs to need wiping. This was found by the coroner.
2. The identical panties, but in a larger size 12 were right there handy in the basement wrapped as a gift.
3. The stager knew where the new panties were, unwrapped them, put the larger ones on JBR AFTER wiping her down. They did not think anyone would notice they were too large.
4. The rest of the set of panties, AND the plastic container, were removed from the house BEFORE the searches, either the night of the 26th by one of the Rs, or by Aunt P in her "recovery" mission to the house.
5. Therefore the police found NO PANTIES, NO PLASTIC CONTAINER. There were NO size 12 panties found in her drawer, though PR said that's where they were. They weren't found because PR was lying, and the panties were never put in there. She was just trying to fabricate a reason for her daughter to be wearing them. She was trying to give the impression that JRB had worn them to the White's, and went to bed with them on. This is impossible, because the autopsy showed her pubic area and thighs had been wiped of blood. Of she'd been wearing the size 12s all day, they would have had much more blood on them then the few drops that was found (which the Rs did not know had happened).
6. PR did admit buying those larger panties. It would be an impossible coincidence for an intruder to have brought with them the SAME kind of panties in the SAME size 12 which PR admitted she bought for a niece.
7. The Rs sent the panties later because PR knew LE knew she had bought them, so it would be even more suspicious for them to disappear. The fact that there WERE none of those size 12 panties found AFTER PR already admitted she bought them just would point right to her as far as who redressed the body in the larger panties. It was just too suspicious for the Rs to ignore. They HAD to come up with the size 12s eventually.
Because whether they were new and still wrapped as a gift, or whether they had been opened and put in JBR's panty drawer, they should STILL have been in the house, and they were not. So the Rs sent them later, saying "oh, look, we found them." They had them because they were the ones who removed them from the house.
To put it as simply as possible- The Rs had to come up with those panties somehow because they admitted buying them. The fact that LE couldn't find them in the house is suspicious in itself.

DeeDee249,
Yes maybe it happed that way, but:

2. The identical panties, but in a larger size 12 were right there handy in the basement wrapped as a gift.

This is an assumption you make so your theory remains consistent e.g. LHP stated she saw the size-12's in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer. Patsy stated she placed them into the bathroom underwear drawer for JonBenet to wear.

4. The rest of the set of panties, AND the plastic container, were removed from the house BEFORE the searches, either the night of the 26th by one of the Rs, or by Aunt P in her "recovery" mission to the house.

This is possible, or they were in the house in another room e.g. Patsy's underwear drawer?

5. Therefore the police found NO PANTIES, NO PLASTIC CONTAINER. There were NO size 12 panties found in her drawer, though PR said that's where they were. They weren't found because PR was lying, and the panties were never put in there. She was just trying to fabricate a reason for her daughter to be wearing them. She was trying to give the impression that JRB had worn them to the White's, and went to bed with them on. This is impossible, because the autopsy showed her pubic area and thighs had been wiped of blood. Of she'd been wearing the size 12s all day, they would have had much more blood on them then the few drops that was found (which the Rs did not know had happened).

OK so what happened to the gift wrapping, was this discovered during any search of the basement?

If there is empty gift wrapping and with Patsy stating she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, but this is contradicted by the investigators, then Patsy's version is not only inconsistent but as the person to wrap the xmas-gifts she is linked directly to the size-12's?

Also:

Of she'd been wearing the size 12s all day, they would have had much more blood on them then the few drops that was found (which the Rs did not know had happened).

I reckon the clean size-12's were part of the plan attempting to hide JonBenet's sexual assault.

7. The Rs sent the panties later because PR knew LE knew she had bought them, so it would be even more suspicious for them to disappear. The fact that there WERE none of those size 12 panties found AFTER PR already admitted she bought them just would point right to her as far as who redressed the body in the larger panties. It was just too suspicious for the Rs to ignore. They HAD to come up with the size 12s eventually.

I disagree with the above, simply because the alleged intruder may have taken the remaining pants as a trophy.

The size-12 underwear are inconsistent on many levels, and unlike the pineapple, we know Patsy is making false statements, what is the percentage in returning forensic evidence that draws attention to the fact that the size-12's were either missed by the police or spirited out of the house, and contradicts Patsy's interview answers?

If the size-12's are missing why not pin it on the intruder who kidnapped and killed JonBenet?

The Ramsey's must know something about the size-12's that the police know but we do not, otherwise why bother returning them?

It was just too suspicious for the Rs to ignore. They HAD to come up with the size 12s eventually.

Why though?


Why did the Ramsey's think removing the size-12's would benefit them, or did the police really miss them altogether?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

There WAS evidence of the gift wrap in the basement- it is seen in some crime scene photos AND police list partially unwrapped gifts on their evidence. PR tried to explain this away by saying she used the wineceller to wrap presents. Have you SEEN the wineceller photos? No one would wrap presents in there. There was no table for one. It was a damp, moldy, dirty room. She no more wrapped gifts in there than I did. That was an excuse to explain why there was gift wrap in that room where the body was.
As far as the Rs having to come up with the panties- I can't explain it any more clearly than I did. PR already admitted buying them. And she already admitted not giving them away yet. So where were they? If they played no part in the crime, why hide them? If she really DID let her daughter keep them, why weren't they in the house when it was searched? Here's why- They DID play a part in the crime- she was redressed when she was killed in one of the pairs in the set. NO ONE but an R knew they existed. The panties on JBR were NEW. If they'd been given to JBR, the rest of the set would be in her drawer with her other undies. There is NO reason for PR to have them in her own drawers. The police didn't find them there either, and they did search them as well. THAT is why it is far more suspicious that police COULDN'T find them. That's why the Rs sent them later. It was as if to say to LE- "HERE, YOU GUYS- YOU MUST HAVE MISSED THESE IN YOUR SEARCH". But in reality, they didn't "miss them"- they were GONE by then.

 

[UKGuy]

There WAS evidence of the gift wrap in the basement- it is seen in some crime scene photos AND police list partially unwrapped gifts on their evidence. PR tried to explain this away by saying she used the wineceller to wrap presents. Have you SEEN the wineceller photos? No one would wrap presents in there. There was no table for one. It was a damp, moldy, dirty room. She no more wrapped gifts in there than I did. That was an excuse to explain why there was gift wrap in that room where the body was.
As far as the Rs having to come up with the panties- I can't explain it any more clearly than I did. PR already admitted buying them. And she already admitted not giving them away yet. So where were they? If they played no part in the crime, why hide them? If she really DID let her daughter keep them, why weren't they in the house when it was searched? Here's why- They DID play a part in the crime- she was redressed when she was killed in one of the pairs in the set. NO ONE but an R knew they existed. The panties on JBR were NEW. If they'd been given to JBR, the rest of the set would be in her drawer with her other undies. There is NO reason for PR to have them in her own drawers. The police didn't find them there either, and they did search them as well. THAT is why it is far more suspicious that police COULDN'T find them. That's why the Rs sent them later. It was as if to say to LE- "HERE, YOU GUYS- YOU MUST HAVE MISSED THESE IN YOUR SEARCH". But in reality, they didn't "miss them"- they were GONE by then.

DeeDee249,
OK, one thing that is missing is where the investigators ask Patsy that question, e.g. where are the other 6-pairs? Since they can present the evidence of the empty gift-wrapping from the basement?

I agree with much of what you write except I can see no rationale for removing the size-12's, since they are not going to offer any forensic leads, unless John's fingerprints are all over the container, Patsy's would be unremarkable.

I reckon the size-12's were returned so no claims that any evidence was removed from the house could be levelled at the Ramsey's. Since as you suggest the size-12's should be somewhere in the house.


By returning the size-12's Patsy has highlighted her involvement in the staging, since her statements regarding the size-12's can be shown to be invalid. Without the size-12's their vanishing can be blamed on the kidnapper, similarly with her size-6's. So I am convinced the Ramsey's knew something we dont and they reckoned the police knew it also, since Patsy takes a risk by returning those size-12's it must be outweighed by any evidential advantage to them?


.

 

[teeray]

I believe so....not sure. It was in John's study...the bathrobe was, not sure where the dictionary was. Cookie said that John had a very small room off of his bathroom, where he had a desk and a chair...and that the Ramsey's referred to it as John's Study....it is my understanding that he ALSO had one downstairs too, according to the house plans, that was right off of the garage, on the first floor. It is not clear where this bathrobe was dropped, but I am assuming that it was the small study, because Patsy said, that John must have dropped it when he got out of the shower, and heard her scream. IF it was found on the FIRST floor study, now THAT would have been weird. I also find it VERY ironic...that Patsy screams JUST AS JOHN is getting OUT OF THE SHOWER....at the precise moment....so, what are the odds of THAT?? To me...that is just WAY TOO IRONIC. Anyway, getting back to your question....excuse me, I went on a tangent there. I am not sure where the dictionary was found...it COULD have been in the first floor study. Who knows.

Just a thought, could it be that Patsy was screaming and John heard her screams when the water was finally shut off?

 

[JMO8778]

If that was the case,then not only was it an extremely long shower,JR also bothered to put on underwear,even though his wife was screaming her head off for him.