Why did Madeleine 'go missing'?

[SapphireSteel]

It's pretty much off topic either way?

 

[brit1981]

I'm in Canada. I am quite surprised that the rules are ignored so much in the UK!

Tink

http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/lifesc...sciencessafetyhandbook/homeofficeregulations/

sorry, but could not edit my previous reply, but you can see here at the labs in Glasgow all one has to wear is a lab coat and provide it themselves. One has to have shoes which are encovered i.e not open toe sandals. I have never heard of a Uk lab where people where masks etc.

 

[badhorsie]

From Brit's link

Personal Protective Equipment
http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_207934_en.pdf

 

[brit1981]

From Brit's link

Personal Protective Equipment
http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_207934_en.pdf

You are talking about unpreserved material, and even then notice masks and hair covering are not required, just gowns and googles, with gloves and some shoe coverings. It mentions nothign about the actual anatomy rooms, the link I provided shows that students just wear their own lab coats. I am surprised that people think anatomy students are wearing all this gear.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Back to the thread - why did she go missing?

The sniffer dogs tracked her approximately 400m down the road, and the scent petered out at a supermarket.

Was there a vehicle parked there?

If so, why did no one see it or report one? Or report the man carrying the child near one?

 

[Clutchbag]

Back to the thread - why did she go missing?

The sniffer dogs tracked her approximately 400m down the road, and the scent petered out at a supermarket.

Was there a vehicle parked there?

If so, why did no one see it or report one? Or report the man carrying the child near one?

no this is not true, the supermarket was a newspaper myth, the live scent dogs tracked a scent around the apartments and ending up outside the tapas restaraunt area a route madeleine mccann woukd have normally taken

there was no man seeing a child being carried around the supermarket either

And no one can report seeing a car if there wasnt one there for starters let alone one for some reason seeming suspicious, cars are normally parked on streets,
common occurrence, even outside supermarkets

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

and if I ´d abducted myself a child, I´d have a car waiting for me right outside at the mcs appartment ;-)

 

[SapphireSteel]

no this is not true, the supermarket was a newspaper myth, the live scent dogs tracked a scent around the apartments and ending up outside the tapas restaraunt area a route madeleine mccann woukd have normally taken

there was no man seeing a child being carried around the supermarket either

And no one can report seeing a car if there wasnt one there for starters let alone one for some reason seeming suspicious, cars are normally parked on streets,
common occurrence, even outside supermarkets

This didn't happen in an average American town, it happened in a tiny sleepy fishing village in Portugal.

There are only 3000 people in PDL, one chemist, no police station, fire department or other services. There is a much larger town 6km away so people tend to drive there to shop, if they have cars at all. Car ownership rates are relatively low.

A town of this size has eyes everywhere. People notice cars parked about late at night, as it is unusual for people to even drive in the first place in very small towns like these.

I lived in a town of 3,000 once and people recognised you by your car, but would also notice and look twice at strange cars.


:cow:

Do you have a link for the "live scent" dogs? I had not heard that before.

TIA

 

[Clutchbag]

This didn't happen in an average American town, it happened in a tiny sleepy fishing village in Portugal.

There are only 3000 people in PDL, one chemist, no police station, fire department or other services. There is a much larger town 6km away so people tend to drive there to shop, if they have cars at all. Car ownership rates are relatively low.

A town of this size has eyes everywhere. People notice cars parked about late at night, as it is unusual for people to even drive in the first place in very small towns like these.

I lived in a town of 3,000 once and people recognised you by your car, but would also notice and look twice at strange cars.


:cow:

Do you have a link for the "live scent" dogs? I had not heard that before.

TIA

Try mccannpjfiles.com and do a search on dogs

What america has anything to do with its no of cars compared to portugal is beyond me.
anyway this is just one report
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

 

[Clutchbag]

I am talking about the present. All that is required in antomy labs, even in the preservation rooms, are lab coats and soemtimes gloves. People are not going to become ill from a normal dead body.

During an autopsy more covering is required, but still not up to clean room levels for instance. But in normal anatomy rooms a lab coat is fine, nothing forensic is going on so it does not matter if an eyelash gets dropped for instance because there is no forensic examination. Do people think that autopsies are the only time people come into contact with dead bodies, what about all the students doing medicine, dentistry, anatomy, people working in care homes, hospices, hospitals, those in the home sof people who die at home, paramedics. Do people honestly think that when someone dies in hospital everyone rushes to put on masks and gloves? Of course not everyone stays in the same clothes, doctors just wear their white coats, nurses their uniforms and other people there stay in their normal clothes. Nurses might leave their uniforms at work, but do you think they do not come into contact with others in the hospital, go to the canteen etc and transfer any scent. Its like the belongings of someone who has died at home, there is not a plague style burning of the things in the house. They are normally kept by relatives, sold, given to charities etc. Very few places will not have either had someone die in them, or objects that have been in the home of someone who died.

clutchbag
I have never said grie said eddie alerts to odour sapart from blood. I said Grime and ahhrison have stated the following

mark harrison states (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html) that the evrd will locate very small samples of human remains, bodily fluids, and bood.

Martin grimes states "'eddie' the enhanced victim recovery dog (e.v.r.d.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/pj/martin_grimes.htm

that is eddie will locate bodily fluid sincluding blood.

And as for the claim "otherwise he woudl not be called a cadaver dog", well he is not called a cadaver dog apart from in media headlines (often the red tops). neither eddie or grime refer to eddie as a cadaver dog.

what a rubbish post, eddie is a cadaver dog, well, was, now retired, searches for cadaver look it up in dictionary, means dead sigh, and a great career he has had, dont give up the day job brit, you cannot make black mean white however hard you try LOL

your efforts in trying to make out eddie alerted to blood only are invain as he alerted to many places for cadaver scent whichwere NOT from blood as keela the blood dog was sent in after him and foundNONE ergo he was alerting to remnant dead body scent, how hard is that for u to understand

 

[brit1981]

Eddie was not a cadaver dog, his handler refers to him as an enhanced victim reocovery dog (although I am not sure whether he decided to call him enhanced or hether that wa shis official title).

mark harrison states (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html) that the evrd will locate very small samples of human remains, bodily fluids, and bood.

Martin grimes states "'eddie' the enhanced victim recovery dog (e.v.r.d.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/pj/martin_grimes.htm

I really do not understand why people are trying to imply when he says the above.

It really is a huge leap to state that a dog, which will according to its handler alert to dried blood from a living human, alerting in a flat where a living human bled for forty five minutes must have been alerting to a dead body and not the blood. keela did also alert in the flat. It is all a moot point anyway as Grime clearly states the dog alerts need physical evidence to back them up and cannot be taken on their own, and unless we are going to buy into conspiracy theories about the covering up of mass child murder, we know eddie alerted where there were never any bodies (and alerted to coconut shell) in the jersey care home.

And whilst I do not know what life is like in villages in australia in the EU the smaller a place the more likely people are to use cars there as they have to drive out to get to many things. There was a car park behind the flat where madeleine was taken, and people do not tend to think parked cars in car parks are unusual. This was also a village used to having hundreds of strangers in it due to the hoiday resort.

 

[Clutchbag]

eddie was not a cadaver dog? Now i have heard it all

If eddie is only used to scent blood there would be no need for keela the blood dog

you are also ignoring all the alerts made in several places by eddie where keela did not alert proving that he was not alerting to blood

 

[brit1981]

No eddie is not a cadaver dog, that is the red tops who have come up with that one. If you look in Grime's report he never refers to eddie as a cadaver dog , only as an enhanced victim reocovery dogs. remember eddie was manily trained in the Uk which meant for the majority of his training he never went near a cadaver (although he did have a brief training period in the US with cadavers). According to Grimes he alerts to cadaver scent, and bodily fluids including blood from a living human. Therefore unless a person was actually there and saw a body they have no idea what he is actually alerting to, is it an old bodily fluid, old blood, the presence of a cadaver or transfer scent from a cadaver (i.e cross contamination). If anyone has any actual proof that eddie was alerting to the presence of a body and not cross contamination, old blood, old bodily fluids etc then they have kept it quiet because there is nothing in the files about it. If anyone has seen otherwise could they please link to it.

 

[fabgod]

From Mark Harrisons rogatory report

link here
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

snipped by me
"Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property

Yeah, Eddie the EVRD wasnt a Cadaver dog?
Mark Harrison didnt state this did he?

Statement proven yet again as false

 

[brit1981]

How is my statement proven as false? Not anywhere does you quote refer to eddie as a cadaver dog, all I can see is him consistently refering to him as an enhanced victim recovery dog, EVRD, or just dog. Not once in your quote does harrison use the phrase "cadaver dog", in fact you have even highlighted the fact he refers to him as an EVRD.

Harrison also states this about the evrd mark harrison states (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html) that the evrd will locate very small samples of human remains, bodily fluids, and blood. I really do not see any reason to think Harrison is lying about this.

 

[fabgod]

Cadaver definition - A DEAD Human Body

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/cadaver

Cadaver definition - A Corpse

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cadaver

As stated above, Eddie the EVRD dog alerts to Dead Body Scent according to Mark Harrison. Just to reiterate a Cadaver is a Dead body.

Eddie was a Cadaver dog no doubt about it

 

[Cappuccino]

As per the link posted on the bottom of the previous page - EVR dogs, sometimes known as cadaver or body dogs, are trained to alert to human remains, bodily fluids and blood. So while Eddie is indeed trained to alert to cadavers, that's not all he is trained to alert to.

 

[fabgod]

As per the link posted on the bottom of the previous page - EVR dogs, sometimes known as cadaver or body dogs, are trained to alert to human remains, bodily fluids and blood. So while Eddie is indeed trained to alert to cadavers, that's not all he is trained to alert to.

Really?

August 2007
Martin Grimes report

"SUMMARY

The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.

The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant"

Looks like the Man actually doing the training and working the Dogs has a different opinion, but hey, why would that matter?

Mark Harrison recommended the Dogs be brought in to search for evidence of a body, he obviously knew what he was doing when bringing in Eddie and Keela, so with all due respect, I would rather take the experts opinions rather than the opinions of random posters on the internet, who often seem to present fiction as fact

 

[Cappuccino]

I'm not presenting my opinion at all, I'm quoting directly from Mark Harrison's document. If you click on the link provided at the bottom of the previous page, you can read it yourself in black and white - EVR dogs, sometimes known as cadaver or body dogs, are trained to alert to human remains, bodily fluids and blood.

That's the words of the expert, not a random poster on the internet.

Here's the link again in case anybody missed it....

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html

Scroll down to where it says Appendix Victim Recovery Dogs and GPR.

 

[fabgod]

I'm not presenting my opinion at all, I'm quoting directly from Mark Harrison's document. If you click on the link provided at the bottom of the previous page, you can read it yourself in black and white - EVR dogs, sometimes known as cadaver or body dogs, are trained to alert to human remains, bodily fluids and blood.

That's the words of the expert, not a random poster on the internet.

Here's the link again in case anybody missed it....

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html

Scroll down to where it says Appendix Victim Recovery Dogs and GPR.

Oh,
are you pointing to the sections that states

"in this case barking to the presence of detected decomposing human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood"?

Because of how it is written with the commas and not full stops, I would say that grammatically speaking he is including the list of Human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood as being included in the "decomposing" items - I am sure some will disagree no doubt, but hey ho!

It is also known that VRD dogs EVRD dogs and Cadaver dogs are proofed off body fluids that can be trained against, ie, urine, vomit etc, so the dogs will not alert to any of these bodily fluids.
The fluids that cannot be as easily trained for are cadaver bodily fluids but being an EVRD dog
and having had the link provided by Cappuccino (Many thanks),
we now know that Eddie is a Cadaver dog as stated in the link provided and in addition, gained the EVRD tag due to his training with Cadavers - result!!!

the link again (again, thanks to cappuccino)
scroll down to appendix Victim Recovery dogs and GPR (page 8)

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html