Why did Madeleine 'go missing'?

[BritsKate]

Well that is what happened n jersey accoring to a report, they just dug where the dog barked and then it turne dout the dog may have alerted to bodly fluids on tissues (it was an area used by couples - nice). I have wondered when grimes has said that the dogs are so ncredibly accurate that they react to even tiny and hstorc scent if that coudl cause problems, and it appears it does.

I also wonder how many alerts I may have cause din the past. I have spent a lot of time in morturies or anatomy labs and contrary to what some peole think I have never worn much protective gear, no-one really did normally. Sometimes if I could be bothered I wore a basic lab coat, but I also wore this when I would go to the canteen, carry it in my bag on the bus etc and it certianly did not cover all of my clothing. I would have transferred the scent everywhere I went, and onto everything and everyone I came into contact with. Its not something I ever thought about to be honest. But if dogs alert to historic scent, then they woudl alert to wherever I have been!

BBM

I find that shocking and a bit scary to be honest considering that is against recommended health and safety protocol and regulations widely available online both for mortuaries as well as universities. I certainly could never, would never, do that type of work without protective gear. MOO

Sorry for the off topic, guys! :seeya:

 

[badhorsie]

BBM

I find that shocking and a bit scary to be honest considering that is against recommended health and safety protocol and regulations widely available online both for mortuaries as well as universities. I certainly could never, would never, do that type of work without protective gear. MOO

Sorry for the off topic, guys! :seeya:

Shocks me too. As a nurse, I don't wear my uniform unless I am at work. I assumed only shabby organisations would not pay attention to protective wear and the problems of infection control

 

[Donjeta]

But one never knows when it might come in handy to have an explanation if ever in trouble with a cadaver dog.

 

[brit1981]

do you really think people in university anatomy labs are wearing protective gear? At most students wear normal lab coats not even howies, even in the presevation rooms. And I hardly think britain's medical schools are shabby. I have never known anyone get an infection from helping to preserve or disecting someone who died of old age. Do you think GPs are wearing protective gear when they go to certify someone dead at an old people's homes. Of course not they just wear their normal clothese unless someone has died from somethign very nasty and contagious. I was on a ward as a student when an elderly perosn died, and we did not all rush to change into protective gear - might be a tad insensitive if we all suddenly rushed off and came back togged up as if we were dealing with radioactivity. You just wear your normal clothes and a lab coat on top. And when you are a student you shove the lab coat in your bag with everything else, you certainly did not have a seperate coat for anatomy work. Do you honestly think that when a person on a ward dies the doctors do not go near them unless they are wearing gloves and full protective gear?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Regardless, the dogs picked up on cadaver likely from Madeleine.

Kate was a part time locum GP which means she would not be anywhere near a dead body in a month of Sundays. Snot noses and high temperatures abound, but dead bodies are actually quite rare and NOT a common occurence for a GP.

 

[Tink]

do you really think people in university anatomy labs are wearing protective gear? At most students wear normal lab coats not even howies, even in the presevation rooms. And I hardly think britain's medical schools are shabby. I have never known anyone get an infection from helping to preserve or disecting someone who died of old age. Do you think GPs are wearing protective gear when they go to certify someone dead at an old people's homes. Of course not they just wear their normal clothese unless someone has died from somethign very nasty and contagious. I was on a ward as a student when an elderly perosn died, and we did not all rush to change into protective gear - might be a tad insensitive if we all suddenly rushed off and came back togged up as if we were dealing with radioactivity. You just wear your normal clothes and a lab coat on top. And when you are a student you shove the lab coat in your bag with everything else, you certainly did not have a seperate coat for anatomy work. Do you honestly think that when a person on a ward dies the doctors do not go near them unless they are wearing gloves and full protective gear?

I have to tell you, I work at a university with anatomy classes and they are VERY strict about everyone wearing lab coats and appropriate protective gear. A student who showed up in ordinary clothes would be promptly kicked out. And no you are not allowed to walk off wearing the lab coat or stuff the coat in a bag; it is either placed in a locker (outside the lab room) or put in the lab laundry. I am frankly shocked to read this.

TP

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

sorry if posted before!

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/madeleine-mccann-and-bianca-jones.html

 

[fabgod]

sorry if posted before!

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/madeleine-mccann-and-bianca-jones.html

Thanks for posting this, A sad outcome for little Bianca and well done Martin Grimes and those dogs :rocker:

 

[Clutchbag]

Does she have a history to alerting to anybody who ever stubbed their toe?

Got it in one

that this dog that has been trained onBOTH pig and human cadAvers and trained to ignore various chemicals was alerting to all and sundry whi,st only alerting to all and sundry in the mccanns flats, is quite a pathetic argument, it's like anything has to be made up to show that he wasn't alerting to a dead body scent

masslve failure

 

[brit1981]

tink,
Do you work in the UK, because I have worked in several anatomy labs and there has never been such strict practices obviously extremly strict when it comes to keeping track of human tissue). yes people wear lab coats, but just basic ones not howies or anything or any other protective gear and you just left them open, and yes everyone took their lab coats home - people used their own lab coats and there would just not be enough room to store everyones coats. And to be honest it was not uncommon to not wear labcoats especially if you were there out of classtime. The only problem was that you went home stinking of preservatives (there was more care in the labs that dealt with viruses and things like e-coli). I have never ever been anywhere where there was a lab laundry for students, even the places where people might spill ecoli on themselves.
And the same for others who come into contact with bodies, unless someone has died of soemthign highly contagious people do not rush off to put protective gera on. Do people honestly think that when a GP calls to certify soemoe dead they attend wearing protective clothing or when someone dies in a traffic accident the police show up in protective clothing etc?

Donjeta, and clutchbag
we have no idea why the dogs alert if they do not find a body do we. that is the problem when it comes to measuring their success rate. Grime stated that keela had previously alerted to a tiny bit of blood from the early 1960's that had been washed away! To me it seems odd that she woudl not be alerting everywhere she went as there can be very few places where in nearlr half a century there has not been a drop of blood which has been washed away. but then for all we know she has given alerts in all homes or cars she has searched in. We know she alerted everywhere she was used in the mccann case (she was only used where eddie alerted)
Eddie is according to Grime trained to alert to bodily fluids including blood from a living person. Paul Gordon a previous occupant of 5A said he bled for 45 minutes and walked around the flat trying to stem the blood. Now my opinion is that eddie could have alerted to this, but that begs the question how likely it is that no-one in the other flats has ever bled. But Grime states eddie alerts to dried blood even tiny amounts so we have to go on what he says.

 

[badhorsie]

do you really think people in university anatomy labs are wearing protective gear? At most students wear normal lab coats not even howies, even in the presevation rooms. And I hardly think britain's medical schools are shabby. I have never known anyone get an infection from helping to preserve or disecting someone who died of old age. Do you think GPs are wearing protective gear when they go to certify someone dead at an old people's homes. Of course not they just wear their normal clothese unless someone has died from somethign very nasty and contagious. I was on a ward as a student when an elderly perosn died, and we did not all rush to change into protective gear - might be a tad insensitive if we all suddenly rushed off and came back togged up as if we were dealing with radioactivity. You just wear your normal clothes and a lab coat on top. And when you are a student you shove the lab coat in your bag with everything else, you certainly did not have a seperate coat for anatomy work. Do you honestly think that when a person on a ward dies the doctors do not go near them unless they are wearing gloves and full protective gear?

Well they should be. Don't be ridiculous, no Dr would don protective gear to pronounce a death but any nurse dealing with the dying would be wearing a uniform anyway and common decency as well as infection control guidelines would prevent them from wearing it to the supermarket afterwards

 

[Donjeta]

I had to attend some demonstrations at the university anatomy lab a few years ago and everybody wore masks, gloves, lab coats, had to protect their shoes with plastic baggies and no one went home with any of that stuff in their bags, I don't think. But this was not in the UK and it involved cutting tissues up, not just looking at someone and saying yep, he's dead.

 

[fabgod]

Donjeta
I think you can work out for yourself how strict the UK health regulations will be, just as well as you have worked out the dogs and everything else :shush:

 

[brit1981]

I had to attend some demonstrations at the university anatomy lab a few years ago and everybody wore masks, gloves, lab coats, had to protect their shoes with plastic baggies and no one went home with any of that stuff in their bags, I don't think. But this was not in the UK and it involved cutting tissues up, not just looking at someone and saying yep, he's dead.

WOW, and this was just anatomy lab demonstrations not an actual autopsy? I have never once been in an anatomy lab where baggies and masks were used. Gloves are sometimes used as it is unpleasant to handle human tissue without gloves, but not all the time. The anatomy labs I have been in, everyone wore their own coats which they took home with them (yes in their bag on the bus). I have a feeling that people not used to UK anatomy labs at unis would get a shock if they went in. As long as someone was not carrying some sort of infection that coud be passed on after death, or is decomposing or it is a forensic case there just is not that much need for protective gear. Why would you need protective gear if there is no risk of infection, a normal lab coat is plenty.

I would like to point out that all the rules in the human tissue act are followed, people who donate their bodies are treated very respectfully, and every single piece of tissue however tiny is kept and placed with the correct person so at the end of the three years every single bit of the person is there.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Standard operating procedure for autopsies in Australia includes the use of protective gear including gloves, boots, eyewear, masks, full gowns, sterlised and one-useage instruments.

This is to prevent cross-contamination either from an onlooker or from another corpse, as happened in Jon Benet Ramseys case where her nails were cut with dirty scissors.

 

[Tink]

I'm in Canada. I am quite surprised that the rules are ignored so much in the UK!

Tink

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm in Canada. I am quite surprised that the rules are ignored so much in the UK!

Tink

Unfortuntately we have a lot of opinion being presented as fact on this thread, and a lot of fact being dismissed as "lies".

What may have been normal procedure 30 years ago is no longer acceptable.

Apart from anything else, the living must be protected from the dead - putrification can be acidic and quite toxic and can cause damage if splashed on uncovered skin...quite apart from the smell.

Unless and until we have a verified expert posting on details like this in the UK, the opinions of a layman can be largely disregarded.

 

[Clutchbag]

mark harrison states (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html) that the evrd will locate very small samples of human remains, bodily fluids, and bood.

Martin grimes states "'eddie' the enhanced victim recovery dog (e.v.r.d.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/pj/martin_grimes.htm


the evrd is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. And decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. [COLOR="DarkRed"]they find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.[/[/COLOR]b]

That is why the alerts are meaningless without a body, the dog could be alerting to some washed away dried blood (previous occupants of 5a state they bled there shortly before the mccanns were there) from a living person, or saliva from a living person (the saliva would decompose even if the person was still alive). once outside the body bodily fluids decompose in exactly the same way regardless of whether the donor was living or dead. Just because an odour is not live it does not mean that the donor is not alive, it just refers to the status of the fluid itself (hence old saliva is not a live odour).

If you look up the jersey case it was belived the alerts were due to seman on tissues.

no where have you proved mr grime said his dog alerts to bodily fluids apart from blood from a live person, he continually talks about decomposed remains from dead bodies, want to try again? Because if that were the truth that the cadaver dog alerts to live human scents a) it would never be called a cadaver dog and b) would be alerting left rift and centre anywhere and everywhere which is a bit nonsensical at best

 

[brit1981]

Unfortuntately we have a lot of opinion being presented as fact on this thread, and a lot of fact being dismissed as "lies".

What may have been normal procedure 30 years ago is no longer acceptable.

Apart from anything else, the living must be protected from the dead - putrification can be acidic and quite toxic and can cause damage if splashed on uncovered skin...quite apart from the smell.

Unless and until we have a verified expert posting on details like this in the UK, the opinions of a layman can be largely disregarded.

I am talking about the present. All that is required in antomy labs, even in the preservation rooms, are lab coats and soemtimes gloves. People are not going to become ill from a normal dead body.

During an autopsy more covering is required, but still not up to clean room levels for instance. But in normal anatomy rooms a lab coat is fine, nothing forensic is going on so it does not matter if an eyelash gets dropped for instance because there is no forensic examination. Do people think that autopsies are the only time people come into contact with dead bodies, what about all the students doing medicine, dentistry, anatomy, people working in care homes, hospices, hospitals, those in the home sof people who die at home, paramedics. Do people honestly think that when someone dies in hospital everyone rushes to put on masks and gloves? Of course not everyone stays in the same clothes, doctors just wear their white coats, nurses their uniforms and other people there stay in their normal clothes. Nurses might leave their uniforms at work, but do you think they do not come into contact with others in the hospital, go to the canteen etc and transfer any scent. Its like the belongings of someone who has died at home, there is not a plague style burning of the things in the house. They are normally kept by relatives, sold, given to charities etc. Very few places will not have either had someone die in them, or objects that have been in the home of someone who died.

clutchbag
I have never said grie said eddie alerts to odour sapart from blood. I said Grime and ahhrison have stated the following

mark harrison states (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html) that the evrd will locate very small samples of human remains, bodily fluids, and bood.

Martin grimes states "'eddie' the enhanced victim recovery dog (e.v.r.d.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/pj/martin_grimes.htm

that is eddie will locate bodily fluid sincluding blood.

And as for the claim "otherwise he woudl not be called a cadaver dog", well he is not called a cadaver dog apart from in media headlines (often the red tops). neither eddie or grime refer to eddie as a cadaver dog.

 

[brit1981]

I'm in Canada. I am quite surprised that the rules are ignored so much in the UK!

Tink

I do not know the rule sin canada but ther eis a chance they are not the same for the UK. remember we are talking about anatomy rooms in unis, not autopsies.