WI - Jason Pero, 14, shot & killed by police, Ashland County, 8 Nov 2017

[FinallyRegistered]

I am neither defending police or victims, but I do have a question that has always bothered me about these cases. Why, when confronted by a possibly dangerous individual, do police respond with deadly force? Is there no way to de-escalate a situation without killing them? If it is truly a case of “my life or yours” —- can they not attempt to shoot to injure without causing death? Surely they don’t shoot wildly, so they must be making a conscious decision.

I understand these are not circumstances that may allow time to weigh the options, but deadly force should not be first, IMO

Good point. A gun shot to the foot would be much better than killing someone. So many options were available, now lives are ruined.

 

[scmom]

The realities of stopping violence

First and foremost, we must continually educate the public that cops are not trained to “kill” — they are trained to stop a threat of death or great bodily harm to themselves or another person. That means putting rounds in center mass until that threat is on the ground and neutralized.
https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...n-to-the-public-why-cops-dont-shoot-to-wound/

 

[bluesneakers]

I am neither defending police or victims, but I do have a question that has always bothered me about these cases. Why, when confronted by a possibly dangerous individual, do police respond with deadly force? Is there no way to de-escalate a situation without killing them? If it is truly a case of “my life or yours” —- can they not attempt to shoot to injure without causing death? Surely they don’t shoot wildly, so they must be making a conscious decision.

I understand these are not circumstances that may allow time to weigh the options, but deadly force should not be first, IMO

If all officers know how to do is use their weapons deadly force is the first and only option.

 

[bears10]

Washington Post has a database of civilians killed by police... you can filter by age, race, state, gender etc. it’s pretty interesting IMO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/

Edit - it only includes fatal shootings... not deaths caused by police chases or other situations.

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[Cryptic]

I think he knew, and I think he reacted out of fear (and maybe anger) rather than making an honest effort to resolve the situation.

Jason did not deserve to be murdered.

He was not "murdered"- unless you can show that the officer had already made a pre-determined decision to kill any individual who:
A. Called in a report about a man with a knife.
B. Described himself as the threat
C. Walked towards the officer while carrying a knife
D. Ignored commands to drop his weapon.

The above is highly unlikely. Sure, this homicide might be one of those "justifable- but not truly justified" type police shootings. Then again, if might be entirely justifiable and justified. In either case, the victim was not murdered.

 

[Cryptic]

Wow, so cops don't carry mace anymore? Or billyclubs? Or large flashlights?

Using a billy club or a mag light against a threat that is armed with a large knife is a good way to have a law enforcement funeral.

Movie style endings where the officer neatly side steps any attempts to stab him- then deftly brings the billy club or flashlight down on the hand holding the knife causing the assailant to drop the weapon (of course on the first strike), followed by the officer accurately kicking the knife out of reach- while easily handcuffing the now knifeless assailant at the same time are rare.

But how can a grown man armed with a gun, a trained professional, be so afraid of a boy with a knife?

Because boys with large knives can kill people? http://nypost.com/2017/09/27/two-students-stabbed-at-high-school/

Do you believe a white boy in the suburbs would have been killed as quickly, or killed at all?

I have cousins who are large boys, live in the suburbs and are white.

I would caution them not to find out (not that any of them are inclined to call police about a man with a knife, describe themselves, then repeatedly lunge towards the officer with a knife when he gets there.... )

 

[bwt42]

I posted early on but stayed away because I knew where this thread was headed. For those that think many police shootings are unjustified, I would ask if poor training was not the cause than what was.

 

[FinallyRegistered]

All the important parts of an officer are covered in a bullet-proof vest. So, no, it's not a guaranteed "law enforcement funeral" to attempt to knock a knife out of the hand of a child.

 

[Cryptic]

All the important parts of an officer are covered in a bullet-proof vest. So, no, it's not a guaranteed "law enforcement funeral" to attempt to knock a knife out of the hand of a child.

Bullet proof vests don't necessarily stop knives (two different kinds of kinetic force). Likewise, I said "risking a law enforcement funeral"- and that is exactly what the officer would be risking.

Though there are questionable police shootings, this suicide by copy involving a 300 pound boy who described himself as a "man with a knife" to lure officers to the home is probably not a good example.

 

[bluesneakers]

All the important parts of an officer are covered in a bullet-proof vest. So, no, it's not a guaranteed "law enforcement funeral" to attempt to knock a knife out of the hand of a child.

Shooting a child is a guaranteed child funeral though.

 

[Cryptic]

Shooting a child is a guaranteed child funeral though.

Yes, shooting the child (who had the physical size of an adult and who described himself as an adult when luring police to the home) carried a high risk of a funeral.

 

[animlzrule]

We have a police force full of Barney Fifes and/or LE with a mindset of "citizens are the enemy." And it will just keep happening because of the blue wall upheld by LE as a monolith. LE refuses to look inward as to why these murders keep happening. Body cams mysteriously stop working. Eye witness testimony is contradicted. Evidence is planted. It's a mess. I don't see that it will ever change. We live in a racist society; there's no reason to think that the police force in general isn't any more racist than the average citizen. Their priority has become protect the badge, vs. protect and serve. I read once that a hair stylist had to put in more training hours than does a police officer in a particular city. Standards need to be much, much higher for entry into the force. But, that's difficult, time consuming, costly, so...

 

[kaen]

We have an issue in this country because we do not have adequate responses to high risk situations involving person with mental illness or disabilities.

I am saddened that in each of the instances where a thread is started the same conversation happens. Those who are on the side of LE will say the same thing and those who are on the side of changing the mortality rate of people who encounter the police say the same things. Unfortunately, we don't usually get to what matters--- every time we have a loss of life, we have missed on opportunity for it to be preventable. People with mental illness or mental disabilities cannot be the lone person responsible as they have an illness or disability. For all who advocate for the police on these threads and those who advocate for the shooting victims, is it possible to take the energy and begin to speak up for training and programs for LE, money for mental health programs, and awareness of all people about the issues that face those with mental illness? Otherwise, it is just the same back and forth. Cops good. Person killed bad. Cops bad. Person killed a victim. JMHO.

 

[animlzrule]

We have an issue in this country because we do not have adequate responses to high risk situations involving person with mental illness or disabilities.

I am saddened that in each of the instances where a thread is started the same conversation happens. Those who are on the side of LE will say the same thing and those who are on the side of changing the mortality rate of people who encounter the police say the same things. Unfortunately, we don't usually get to what matters--- every time we have a loss of life, we have missed on opportunity for it to be preventable. People with mental illness or mental disabilities cannot be the lone person responsible as they have an illness or disability. For all who advocate for the police on these threads and those who advocate for the shooting victims, is it possible to take the energy and begin to speak up for training and programs for LE, money for mental health programs, and awareness of all people about the issues that face those with mental illness? Otherwise, it is just the same back and forth. Cops good. Person killed bad. Cops bad. Person killed a victim. JMHO.

It's hard to have productive conversations about LE reforms when the Attny. General of the US has determined it's not important. LE won't do it of their own volition, and when the top dog shrugs it off, what is there to be done?

"“Attorney General Jeff Sessions is undermining and obstructing extensive efforts that have been made to promote policing reform in a small set of the most broken police departments in our country,” Clarke said in a statement. “In a 163-page report, the Justice Department laid out extensive evidence of unconstitutional policing practices including unlawful stops, searches, and arrests; racial disparities in the rates of stops, searches and arrests; and use of excessive force. The mayor, the community and the police department all support reform, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions is the obstacle standing in the way. This administration is making clear its intent to delay and obstruct federal civil rights enforcement across our country.” “Since when did protecting civil rights take the back seat to making sure police officers don’t get their feelings hurt?” she said. “Good police officers everywhere support the work of the Civil Rights Division. They know this is a giant step backwards for our country.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...lice-civil-rights_us_58e3039ee4b03a26a3656ff2

 

[bears10]

I do support police very much so and it’s probably because I have so many family members and close friends who are in LE. However, that’s not why I am so adamant about defending them in these cases. It’s bc people automatically turn it into a racial issue, when our country is in a state of racial tension. I’ve posted multiple cases where white teens were killed by cops, hell, I even posted the Wapo directory for anyone to filter thru the civilian gunshot deaths by cops. But none of my posts get acknowledged. Instead the people who say “well how come cops don’t kill white people” are thanked and cited. It’s just frustrating because there is a lot of misinformation spread. Unfortunately, when white people are killed by LE, justified or not, there isn’t a group rallying for justice for the deceased the way BLM does. I’m trying to tread as lightly as possible and am not looking to offend anyone.


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[HoneyWest]

I do support police very much so and it’s probably because I have so many family members and close friends who are in LE. However, that’s not why I am so adamant about defending them in these cases. It’s bc people automatically turn it into a racial issue, when our country is in a state of racial tension. I’ve posted multiple cases where white teens were killed by cops, hell, I even posted the Wapo directory for anyone to filter thru the civilian gunshot deaths by cops. But none of my posts get acknowledged. Instead the people who say “well how come cops don’t kill white people” are thanked and cited. It’s just frustrating because there is a lot of misinformation spread. Unfortunately, when white people are killed by LE, justified or not, there isn’t a group rallying for justice for the deceased the way BLM does. I’m trying to tread as lightly as possible and am not looking to offend anyone.


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I did follow your link to the database and tried to filter results by Native American race. We do not exist, apparently. We are invisible.

 

[bluesneakers]

I do support police very much so and it’s probably because I have so many family members and close friends who are in LE. However, that’s not why I am so adamant about defending them in these cases. It’s bc people automatically turn it into a racial issue, when our country is in a state of racial tension. I’ve posted multiple cases where white teens were killed by cops, hell, I even posted the Wapo directory for anyone to filter thru the civilian gunshot deaths by cops. But none of my posts get acknowledged. Instead the people who say “well how come cops don’t kill white people” are thanked and cited. It’s just frustrating because there is a lot of misinformation spread. Unfortunately, when white people are killed by LE, justified or not, there isn’t a group rallying for justice for the deceased the way BLM does. I’m trying to tread as lightly as possible and am not looking to offend anyone.


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Is anyone in this thread spreading misinformation about victims of police shootings?

It's unfortunate not all victims get the same amount of attention, but that's not the fault of people who are doing what they can to demand justice and expose the unfairness of the justice system on POC in the USA.

 

[bears10]

Is anyone in this thread spreading misinformation about victims of police shootings?

It's unfortunate not all victims get the same amount of attention, but that's not the fault of people who are doing what they can to demand justice and expose the unfairness of the justice system on POC in the USA.

Well someone literally said something along the lines of “why don’t we hear about white teens being killed by cops”, insinuating that white teens are never killed by LE, yes I think that’s misinformation. Just because there isn’t a rally or protest every time it happens, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen and that white people can face the same kind of injustice.


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[bears10]

I did follow your link to the database and tried to filter results by Native American race. We do not exist, apparently. We are invisible.

Native Americans seem to fall under the other category. Take that up with wapo, not me.


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[bluesneakers]

Well someone literally said something along the lines of “why don’t we hear about white teens being killed by cops”, insinuating that white teens are never killed by LE, yes I think that’s misinformation. Just because there isn’t a rally or protest every time it happens, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen and that white people can face the same kind of injustice.


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Can you link to it? I don't recall anyone saying white teens are not killed by cops.