WI WI - Robert Christian, 18, Madison, 16 Sept 1977

[Kitty7766]

My apologies to Sweet luv and Keiri - for some reason your recent posts were not showing. Again, it will be interesting to hear what is said about Bob's case.

 

[Quoththeraven]

Sauk Co. Sheriff's Office investigating well-known serial killer as potential suspect in 1977 cold case

SAUK COUNTY, Wis. (WKOW) — Detectives at the Sauk County Sheriff's Office and family members of missing 18-year-old Robert Christian are seeking information about his disappearance in 1977.

www.wkow.com

John Wayne Gacy is the suspect.

The discovery of a red light and police radio in Gacy's car leads authorities to surmise he might have posed as a police officer to lure unsuspecting victims into his late-model black Oldsmobile.

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graphics.chicagotribune.com

Oct. 12, 2011: The Cook County Sheriff’s Department announces that it is undertaking a new effort to identify the remains of eight Gacy victims whose names still were not known. The agency says DNA testing that wasn’t available when the remains were found in 1978 could help.

Timeline of serial killer John Wayne Gacy's life, case

CHICAGO (AP) — John Wayne Gacy was convicted of killing 33 young men and boys in the Chicago area in the 1970s.

apnews.com

 

[Keiri]

Sauk Co. Sheriff's Office investigating well-known serial killer as potential suspect in 1977 cold case

SAUK COUNTY, Wis. (WKOW) — Detectives at the Sauk County Sheriff's Office and family members of missing 18-year-old Robert Christian are seeking information about his disappearance in 1977.

www.wkow.com

John Wayne Gacy is the suspect.

View attachment 565387

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graphics.chicagotribune.com

Here? All his other victims were in Illinois. But… oh man then Bob died horribly if it’s true. It’s so tenuous, the draw to baraboo because of the circus museum. I wonder if they considered Edwards. But I’m back to thinking not serial killer unless they have something stronger than the museum. Can’t hurt to compare his dna to the remaining Gacy bodies.

 

[Quoththeraven]

Here? All his other victims were in Illinois. But… oh man then Bob died horribly if it’s true. It’s so tenuous, the draw to baraboo because of the circus museum. I wonder if they considered Edwards. But I’m back to thinking not serial killer unless they have something stronger than the museum. Can’t hurt to compare his dna to the remaining Gacy bodies.

This article below states Robert's DNA is on file, so maybe none of Gacy's found victims match. I think several of Gacy's victims were thrown in a nearby river and were never found.

Robert Lewis Christian, Missing Since September 16, 1977

Robert Lewis Christian went missing on September 16, 1977, but his car was found stripped. Please click the article headline to read the full article on his disappearance.

undergroundmysteries.com

 

[Keiri]

This article below states Robert's DNA is on file, so maybe none of Gacy's found victims match. I think several of Gacy's victims were thrown in a nearby river and were never found.

Robert Lewis Christian, Missing Since September 16, 1977

Robert Lewis Christian went missing on September 16, 1977, but his car was found stripped. Please click the article headline to read the full article on his disappearance.

undergroundmysteries.com

They may not have dna samples for the remaining 5 victim bodies, too. But they can compare that fingerprint with gacy’s, as I understand that unknown fingerprint is in the national database. I checked and Bob is not excluded from the Gacy bodies - he may not be compared yet. And Milwaukee police told me NaMus is a year behind on testing. But I emailed the dept with my reasoning why, if they go the serial killer route - they should talk to the investigators for Edward's 1980 murders.

 

[Quoththeraven]

Police Still Seek Tips​

Experts diverge on whether there are more than 33 victims, but Dart is convinced Gacy killed outside Illinois, citing hotel and gas receipts from other states.

Given Gacy’s boldness in murdering people on his home turf, “the notion he was relegated to one defined area, I find absurd,” Dart says.

“What sealed it for me was a phone call out of the blue…from an individual from Florida,” Dart recounts. The man said he was selling marijuana at a truck stop in Florida when Gacy pulled up and waved him over, only to pull out a gun. The man threw his wallet at Gacy and fled, unharmed.

“That guy’s ID was found in Gacy’s house,” Dart says.

The sheriff’s office is asking individuals with male relatives missing between 1970 and 1979 to call (708) 865-6244 or fill out this online form at the Cook County Sheriff’s Office website.

The Hunt to Find John Wayne Gacy's Unidentified Victims

Five of the Chicago serial killer's 33 victims from the 1970s remain unidentified, but the Cook County Sheriff's office is continuing the work to ID them.

www.aetv.com

I wonder if they still have those hotel and gas receipts still being held as evidence?

 

[Keiri]

The Hunt to Find John Wayne Gacy's Unidentified Victims

Five of the Chicago serial killer's 33 victims from the 1970s remain unidentified, but the Cook County Sheriff's office is continuing the work to ID them.

www.aetv.com

I wonder if they still have those hotel and gas receipts still being held as evidence?

I was thinking the same thing. I bet they are since not all victims have been identified.

 

[Quoththeraven]

Two of Gacy's victims:
Robert Edward Gilroy Jr, 18, murdered on 15 September 1977, found in the crawl space.
John Antheney Mowery, 19, murdered on 25 September 1977, found in the crawl space.

Could Gacy have gotten up to Wisconsin the next day?

Robert Christian, 18, Madison, went missing 16 Sept 1977.​

How many people John Wayne Gacy murdered and who they all were

Gacy was an aspiring politician, local contractor, and part-time clown-for-hire, who murdered scores of young men in the 70s

inews.co.uk

 

[Quoththeraven]

Two of Gacy's victims:
Robert Edward Gilroy Jr, 18, murdered on 15 September 1977, found in the crawl space.
John Antheney Mowery, 19, murdered on 25 September 1977, found in the crawl space.

Could Gacy have gotten up to Wisconsin the next day?

Robert Christian, 18, Madison, went missing 16 Sept 1977.​

How many people John Wayne Gacy murdered and who they all were

Gacy was an aspiring politician, local contractor, and part-time clown-for-hire, who murdered scores of young men in the 70s

inews.co.uk

According to the below info, Gilroy was buried on 15 Sept 1977, so Christian and Gilroy's deaths weren't a day apart so he was murdered at an earlier time.

Robert Edward Gilroy Jr

Robert Edward “Bob” Gilroy Jr. (1958-1977) - Find...

Robert was the son of Alice Moriarity Gilroy Durocher A note on Robert's Illinois, Archdiocese of Chicago, Cemetery Records indicated that information about Robert was not to be given out to anyone who inquired about his burial. According to a family tree on Ancestry.com, Robert was a victim of...

www.findagrave.com

A note on Robert's Illinois, Archdiocese of Chicago, Cemetery Records indicated that information about Robert was not to be given out to anyone who inquired about his burial. According to a family tree on Ancestry.com, Robert was a victim of John Wayne Gacy, another memorial card is attached to the family that shows Robert died 15 Sep 1977. This fact explains why the family did not want Robert's burial information given out. His remains were identified through dental records and the burial date shown on this memorial is actually the burial date.

 

[Keiri]

According to the below info, Gilroy was buried on 15 Sept 1977, so Christian and Gilroy's deaths weren't a day apart so he was murdered at an earlier time.

Robert Edward Gilroy Jr

Robert Edward “Bob” Gilroy Jr. (1958-1977) - Find...

Robert was the son of Alice Moriarity Gilroy Durocher A note on Robert's Illinois, Archdiocese of Chicago, Cemetery Records indicated that information about Robert was not to be given out to anyone who inquired about his burial. According to a family tree on Ancestry.com, Robert was a victim of...

www.findagrave.com

A note on Robert's Illinois, Archdiocese of Chicago, Cemetery Records indicated that information about Robert was not to be given out to anyone who inquired about his burial. According to a family tree on Ancestry.com, Robert was a victim of John Wayne Gacy, another memorial card is attached to the family that shows Robert died 15 Sep 1977. This fact explains why the family did not want Robert's burial information given out. His remains were identified through dental records and the burial date shown on this memorial is actually the burial date.

Do they mean the death date shown is actually the burial date? That can’t be. His body wasn’t recovered by then.

 

[Quoththeraven]

Do they mean the death date shown is actually the burial date? That can’t be. His body wasn’t recovered by then.

That's what they wrote, which doesn't make sense. "the burial date shown on this memorial is actually the burial date."

 

[Keiri]

That's what they wrote, which doesn't make sense. "the burial date shown on this memorial is actually the burial date."

I think they mean the death date shown on this memorial is the actual death date, not the burial date. Two memorials were merged and prior to this, I bet the burial date was in the death date spot. But I think your other point is really the important bit, did he kill someone on the 15th and get down to madison on the 16th for Bob? Seems weird, but possible. I still don't buy it though.

 

[Quoththeraven]

did he kill someone on the 15th and get down to madison on the 16th for Bob? Seems weird, but possible. I still don't buy it though.

Yeah, maybe they're clutching at straws like other LE agencies did with Henry Lee Lucas. "Lucas later recanted his confessions as a hoax with the exception of his confession to murdering his mother."
One thing, we now know a lot more than we did before. The vehicle with Robert's license plate was in the driveway of Durward’s Glen Retreat. The front license plate was in the brush near the abandoned car. At least that's how I interpret the article.

A nun had been staying on site there and returned home on September 16, the same day Robert went missing. When she got home, she realized it had been ransacked.

"Bed linens were unkept. Food was taken out of the fridge. Somebody had been smoking cigarettes," Pointon said.

I wonder what the nun meant that bed linens were unkept? Was someone sleeping in a bed while she was gone? By 'ransacked' do they mean burglarized? Was 'home' at the retreat or her private residence somewhere else? They (the police/the reporter) do a poor job of explaining the specifics. I also wonder why they even withheld this new information for 47 years and left the comment by the driver wrongly interpreted? Did Gacy even smoke?

Sauk Co. Sheriff's Office investigating well-known serial killer as potential suspect in 1977 cold case

SAUK COUNTY, Wis. (WKOW) — Detectives at the Sauk County Sheriff's Office and family members of missing 18-year-old Robert Christian are seeking information about his disappearance in 1977.

www.wkow.com

She approaches the driver, she asks him what he's doing. Tells him that this is private property. He says, 'I'm very sorry. I apologize. I'm looking for Bob. I'm looking for my friend Bob.'"

Maybe the driver was actually a friend of Bob Christian. And was driving Bob Christian's car (or a similar vehicle with the front license plate from Bob Christian's car). But was making up a quick excuse as to why he was in the driveway. And was the one who ransacked the building at that location. Whoever it was drove off in the opposite direction of the relay tower. And since the woman came forward sometime after the incident, one wonders why they didn't immediately report it to the SCSD the day it happened.

Henry Lee Lucas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BooImAGhost]

Reading the recent article posted on WKOW's website regarding Robert Christian and potential link to John Wayne Gacy. It may be worth noting that Gacy had been out of town in Pittsburg the day of Robert's disappearance and allegedly had a plane ticket that proved he returned to Chicago the night of the 16th (the day Robert went missing). I will link my source below:

Serial killer John Wayne Gacy had accomplices, lawyers say

 

[Keiri]

Reading the recent article posted on WKOW's website regarding Robert Christian and potential link to John Wayne Gacy. It may be worth noting that Gacy had been out of town in Pittsburg the day of Robert's disappearance and allegedly had a plane ticket that proved he returned to Chicago the night of the 16th (the day Robert went missing). I will link my source below:

Serial killer John Wayne Gacy had accomplices, lawyers say

So unlikely it's him then.
As for Gacy, he at a minimum smoked marijuana.

Isn't it possible the ransacker and the car stripper were the same people? And maybe had crimes of opportunity? Or is this just grasping at straws? You know the biggest thing I want to ask is did they pull and talk to all the burglary and car tire theft cases from 1976-1978 and talk to those still alive. I bet you some would talk now, knowing the burglary is well past statute of limitations. They might have seen something or more.

 

[BooImAGhost]

This does not feel serial to me. Perhaps the person who had been staying at the retreat had burglarized Robert, maybe it went bad and they quickly did what they did to the car and went back to the retreat only to find the nun and her friend. I would suspect that the person had the tires and Robert in the car at the time - it's unfortunate that they couldn't identify that anything was in the car, if the person had tires and a body inside, surely one would have to be in the trunk and the other in the back seat. It sounds very disorganized. Hopefully they retrieved those cigarettes for DNA!

Edit: If Robert's hunting gear and money were still in the vehicle, this may suggest that robbery was not the motive but if something went awry, that may have changed the perpetrator's plan and a quick getaway was necessary.

 

[BooImAGhost]

Here are photos of the vehicle shared by the Sauk Co. Sherriff's Dept.

- It seems odd that Robert would drive up into a spot tucked away like that unless that's where he planned to park to go hunting. Is this maybe where people would generally park when they went hunting in that area?

- Was the driver's side window up or down when the vehicle was found? Was it up because Robert then exited the vehicle to go hunting? Was it down so he could speak to someone outside of the car? Or was it down because someone got in the vehicle and was smoking in it?

- Why would someone go through the trouble of removing tires without a jack and a car battery without taking Robert's personal belongings or money inside?

 

[Keiri]

This does not feel serial to me. Perhaps the person who had been staying at the retreat had burglarized Robert, maybe it went bad and they quickly did what they did to the car and went back to the retreat only to find the nun and her friend. I would suspect that the person had the tires and Robert in the car at the time - it's unfortunate that they couldn't identify that anything was in the car, if the person had tires and a body inside, surely one would have to be in the trunk and the other in the back seat. It sounds very disorganized. Hopefully they retrieved those cigarettes for DNA!

Edit: If Robert's hunting gear and money were still in the vehicle, this may suggest that robbery was not the motive but if something went awry, that may have changed the perpetrator's plan and a quick getaway was necessary.

I was just reading a 2005 case in which the DNA test people in Milwaukee told the police cigarettes were "useless" for DNA pulls since the tech wasn't that advanced. They made the police do it over and get a real sample from the reluctant party. If that was 2005, I doubt they'd have kept the cigarette. We do know the fingerprint was, but I was not informed of what individual things were kept from the investigation beyond that.

 

[Keiri]

- It seems odd that Robert would drive up into a spot tucked away like that unless that's where he planned to park to go hunting. Is this maybe where people would generally park when they went hunting in that area?

Quick answer on this one - we have established hunting started the next day and Bob was going to Baraboo to meet his buddy Randy. Baraboo was still a ways away from Randy's house and had no known reason to park there. He was not the kind of guy to break the law and start hunting the day before it was legal, especially when he was supposed to hunt with Randy the next morning. According to some, this spot was known as a "lover's lane" of sorts, but nobody knows why the car was there. That's why the police are leaning towards Gacy, because he had a fake police light etc that he could pull someone over with. But it's unlikely for reasons Quoth and others point out above. But I'd lay a lot of money on the fact Bob was not quickly hunting when he was overdue for his meet with Randy.

 

[Quoththeraven]

This does not feel serial to me. Perhaps the person who had been staying at the retreat had burglarized Robert, maybe it went bad and they quickly did what they did to the car and went back to the retreat only to find the nun and her friend. I would suspect that the person had the tires and Robert in the car at the time - it's unfortunate that they couldn't identify that anything was in the car, if the person had tires and a body inside, surely one would have to be in the trunk and the other in the back seat. It sounds very disorganized. Hopefully they retrieved those cigarettes for DNA!

Edit: If Robert's hunting gear and money were still in the vehicle, this may suggest that robbery was not the motive but if something went awry, that may have changed the perpetrator's plan and a quick getaway was necessary.

I wonder if they searched for Robert along Tower Rd (formerly known as Albrecht Road at time of Robert's disappearance) and McLeisch Rd between the relay tower and the retreat? (Both roads merge at the Sauk/Columbia County line) The 'friend' of Robert may have been driving east away from the relay tower in his own vehicle with the front plate that he'd taken off Robert's vehicle, stopped in the driveway of the retreat on McLeisch Rd around 8/8:30 pm, ransacked the house, was surprised by the woman from Mauston and by the nun, gave an excuse about looking for his friend Bob, then left going northeast on McLeisch Rd which intersects with Durward's Glen Rd (which is on the way to Baraboo). Where he was going is unknown (maybe to dispose of Robert's body), but he may have returned, took Robert's license plate off his own vehicle and tossed it into the bushes next to Robert's already-stripped car and then most likely left. I highly doubt it was Robert who spoke to the woman from Mauston. Why would he say he was looking for himself? It's very possible that the person actually was a friend of Bob. Did Bob meet a friend of his on the was to Randy's house? Whoever it was seemed to know his way around Bob's hunting area.

Robert left Madison at 5:30 pm, travel time from Madison to the retreat area is about one hour. So, from 6:30 pm to 8 pm/8:30 pm, 1.5-2 hours, that vehicle could have been stripped.

Note: Gacy was raised Catholic (he used a rosary to demonstrate how he strangled his victims) and the retreat was a Catholic retreat so maybe there's a connection there? (If Gacy was even the one involved)
Another note: Gacy drove a newer Oldsmobile at the time of his arrest. I suppose one could speculate as to when he bought it or if tires from an AMC Hornet are even interchangeable with an Olds.
MOO.