You're so Vain by Carly Simon mystery man

I think she's talking about rich people in general. How they flaunt their money, are so full of themselves, say a lot of sweet-nothings, and cheat on every woman or man they date.

It could also be about a certain woman who was her friend.
That direction has never been looked at.
When so many celebs were having orgies and exploring their sexuality openly in the 70s.
Why assume it's a man she's talking about?
 
It could also be about a certain woman who was her friend.
That direction has never been looked at.
When so many celebs were having orgies and exploring their sexuality openly in the 70s.
Why assume it's a man she's talking about?
snip

Interesting angle.
 
I always thought Warren Beatty, but reading this thread makes me wonder now.
Very mysterious!
I wonder if she'll ever reveal who it is, or take that information to the grave.
 
With the song written in 1971, and saying, "You had me several years ago, when I was still quite naive" persuades me that it's about someone she was involved with in the 60s not the 70s, and before she came to have any sort of real fame (which began in perhaps 70-71) and was younger. As the Mama Cass lover "mystery" {mentioned above) shows us, even if you're close to the family, finding those never-became-famous names can be an exercise in chasing nameless shadows, and CS has never indicated this was anyone particularly well-known at all (other than to her memory, of course).

While that might mean it could be a dead-end for us to try to figure out here, maybe not. Obviously she recalls who she had in mind. So why not check her remembered-and-written account of those years when she would have been "naive" and then working her way through Struggling Musician World, and see who has made enough of an impression for her to include a mention many years later.

Then if I was intent on figuring out the answer, I would
1 make a list of every possible relationship she mentioned in her account,
2 explore each of those possibilities to see if any stand out, and
3 see if any can be eliminated, or might be more likely, using the events and descriptions in the song.
Here is exactly what she wrote about those years, from when she was 19 to about 25:

Lucy and I taught ourselves guitar (three chords each) and hitchhiked up to Provincetown, MA in the summer of '64. We sang at a local bar called The Moors. Our repertoire consisted of folk music, peppered with a few of our own brand new compositions - the most famous and delightful of which was my sister's musical interpretation of Eugene Field's Wynken, Blinken and Nod.

We were signed to our first recording deal (Kapp Records) that year and Harold Leventhal and Charlie Close became our managers. We played the Bitter End and the Gaslight clubs in Greenwich Village, opening for Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, Dick Cavett and other soon-to-be-famous people. We wore matching dresses and caught the train, very late at night, back to our schools in the private sector.

Fancy schools. Quiet campuses, where dorm mothers frowned upon our late night arrivals and professors thought even less of overdue papers. I left school after a few years and went to live with my boyfriend in the south of France. While there, I had the first of many nervous breakdowns, brought on by an allergy to the local wine. My sister had had enough of my nerves and got married to a psychiatrist and had a child, Julie. About her I wrote Julie Through The Glass, which I later performed on my album Anticipation - but I won't go there quite yet.

Once Lucy was married, I got involved with manager Albert Grossman. Without my dear sister's protection, I was a sitting duck. He offered me his body in exchange for worldly success. Sadly, his body was not the kind you would easily sell yourself for. My record, produced by Bob Johnson was shelved - which was a shame because it was actually quite good.

When this didn't work, Albert got Bob Dylan to re-write an Eric VonSchmidt song for me, called Baby Let Me Follow You Down. It was good - funky. I was backed by Robbie Robertson, Paul Griffin, Mike Bloomfield and Levon Helm. But that ended up on the shelf too. Then followed another attempt at commerciality, in which Grossman teamed me up with Richie Havens - as Carly and The Deacon - but the team never made it into the studio. After this I fell into silence for another few years.

During that time, I worked as an overweight secretary in the offices of a production company. I pretended to type and take shorthand while extending my luncheon breaks to drown my sense of failure in more and more puff pastry and puddings. There was a very nice man working for the production company named Len Friedlander. His wife had been a great childhood friend of mine. He thought I would be a fine girl to take care of the talent on one of the shows they were launching called From the Bitter End. I took care of Marvin Gaye and Redd Foxx and the Staple Singers and the Chad Mitchell Trio and Peter, Paul and Mary. I brought them tea and honey and didn't try to sell them my songs. However, I did go for a term to Julliard School of Music around that time to learn how to notate music. (I have since lost this skill---sadly).

I was writing songs. I wanted to be able to send them to singers in hopes that I could make some money from the publishing. I won't say that I was poor, because it is well known that my family had money, but my mother (my father died in 1960) had a strict attitude about allowances (none), and the relatively small sum of money I inherited when I was 21 was spent in three years on the psychiatrist I saw about that wine-allergy-induced nervous breakdown. I sent my four or five songs to Dionne Warwick (I had met her on the plane coming back from France the year I lived with my boyfriend, just as Walk On By was about to be released), Cass Elliot, Burt Bacharach, and Judy Collins. I never heard from any one of them until years later, but never on the issue of my songs.

In 1968 (ish) I left the TV production company and got a job as the lead girl singer for the band Elephant's Memory. In that I have a poor memory for dates, I don't remember like the good elephant that I purported to be. In fact I don't remember much about it at all, except that no-one liked each other very much, and the trombone and sax player were very good, and someone's name was Stan and someone else's name was Myron and there was a Rick and a Richie. I hated the gigs. We played clubs where everyone smoked dope and cigarettes at the same time. The sound systems were so dreadful I lost my voice easily and regularly, and after a summer I quit. They then became John and Yoko's band for a while.

After this experience, I moved to Murray Hill in NYC, which was the first apartment I had on my own. My mother came down and installed serious locks on the doors but I still had a hard time sleeping alone and so I never did. It was 1969 and there was no reason to. Somewhere in 1968 I dated Milos Forman. He put me in his movie Taking Off starring Buck Henry. I was appalled when I saw it. I looked so gooney and gawky singing Long Term Physical Effects. I suspect I had a certain energy that he liked. It wasn't a big part at all. The movie was about a series of people doing auditions. I was one of them.

The same year I went to be a counselor at a summer camp and met Jacob Brackman, who became my best friend. When I moved to my apartment on 35th St. (Murray Hill), Jake lived around the corner and we were inseparable, sharing our social lives. He introduced me to so many of the friends I still have. One night there was a man at his house, the husband of actress Janet Margolin. This man, Jerry Brandt, offered to be my manager. I accepted. As soon as I'd made a demo (a fairly unmemorable experience, with a fairly unremarkable result), Jerry took it around to record companies. The first stop was Clive Davis at Columbia who apparently rejected it out of hand. Jac Holzman, at Elektra, was more positive, however, and even though his whole staff had vetoed signing me, he was willing to override them. I was signed in 1970.

Thinking I wasn't much of a writer, Jac was hoping to join me with some of the great writers of the day. I remember Tim Buckley and Paul Siebert. He introduced me to Eddie Kramer. We began production on my first solo album in the summer of 1970. By the fall, I was mixing it alone. Eddie and I had had a falling out over the drum sound on That's The Way I've Always Heard It Should Be and he walked out. Jerry Brandt also went on to do things other than manage me.
 
I think she's talking about rich people in general. How they flaunt their money, are so full of themselves, say a lot of sweet-nothings, and cheat on every woman or man they date.

It could also be about a certain woman who was her friend.
That direction has never been looked at.
When so many celebs were having orgies and exploring their sexuality openly in the 70s.
Why assume it's a man she's talking about?

With the song written in 1971, and saying, "You had me several years ago, when I was still quite naive" persuades me that it's about someone she was involved with in the 60s not the 70s, and before she came to have any sort of real fame (which began in perhaps 70-71) and was younger. As the Mama Cass lover "mystery" {mentioned above) shows us, even if you're close to the family, finding those never-became-famous names can be an exercise in chasing nameless shadows, and CS has never indicated this was anyone particularly well-known at all (other than to her memory, of course).

While that might mean it could be a dead-end for us to try to figure out here, maybe not. Obviously she recalls who she had in mind. So why not check her remembered-and-written account of those years when she would have been "naive" and then working her way through Struggling Musician World, and see who has made enough of an impression for her to include a mention many years later.

Then if I was intent on figuring out the answer, I would
1 make a list of every possible relationship she mentioned in her account,
2 explore each of those possibilities to see if any stand out, and
3 see if any can be eliminated, or might be more likely, using the events and descriptions in the song.
Here is exactly what she wrote about those years, from when she was 19 to about 25:

Lucy and I taught ourselves guitar (three chords each) and hitchhiked up to Provincetown, MA in the summer of '64. We sang at a local bar called The Moors. Our repertoire consisted of folk music, peppered with a few of our own brand new compositions - the most famous and delightful of which was my sister's musical interpretation of Eugene Field's Wynken, Blinken and Nod.

We were signed to our first recording deal (Kapp Records) that year and Harold Leventhal and Charlie Close became our managers. We played the Bitter End and the Gaslight clubs in Greenwich Village, opening for Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, Dick Cavett and other soon-to-be-famous people. We wore matching dresses and caught the train, very late at night, back to our schools in the private sector.

Fancy schools. Quiet campuses, where dorm mothers frowned upon our late night arrivals and professors thought even less of overdue papers. I left school after a few years and went to live with my boyfriend in the south of France. While there, I had the first of many nervous breakdowns, brought on by an allergy to the local wine. My sister had had enough of my nerves and got married to a psychiatrist and had a child, Julie. About her I wrote Julie Through The Glass, which I later performed on my album Anticipation - but I won't go there quite yet.

Once Lucy was married, I got involved with manager Albert Grossman. Without my dear sister's protection, I was a sitting duck. He offered me his body in exchange for worldly success. Sadly, his body was not the kind you would easily sell yourself for. My record, produced by Bob Johnson was shelved - which was a shame because it was actually quite good.

When this didn't work, Albert got Bob Dylan to re-write an Eric VonSchmidt song for me, called Baby Let Me Follow You Down. It was good - funky. I was backed by Robbie Robertson, Paul Griffin, Mike Bloomfield and Levon Helm. But that ended up on the shelf too. Then followed another attempt at commerciality, in which Grossman teamed me up with Richie Havens - as Carly and The Deacon - but the team never made it into the studio. After this I fell into silence for another few years.

BBM

I think that's the time she spent with this man.

Grossman is dead and so I rule him out.
 
Within that account are a lot of names, but almost none of them seem to me to qualify as someone who would have had enough of a relationship with her that he would ever say he would never leave her, as the song tells. I only see two, and if I was a betting man, I'd say one of these is most likely the guy:

1 An unnamed "boyfriend" who was stable enough that he had a place in "the south of France," and involved enough that they lived together for a year. Was he a rich New Yorker, who liked horse racing and could afford to own or lease a Learjet to see an eclipse in 1970? She notes having nervous breakdowns (plural) which might imply her being insecure in this relationship, and which might fit.

2 Her manager-boyfriend named Albert Grossman, of whom she noted that "I was a sitting duck. He offered me his body in exchange for worldly success." She then snipes at his appearance, but it certainly sounds like a deal which she accepted completely, and maybe there was also some degree of romance and naivete included, who knows. Clearly he would have been a New Yorker, and he was very successful and liked to make an impression. Much older than her (b 1926), he would have been in his early 40s with her as his young-20's girl (she may have been a mistress rather than a girlfriend).
 
BBM

I think that's the time she spent with this man.

Grossman is dead and so I rule him out.

I saw why you think he must be alive. I don't take that comment that seriously, and in fact I truly question whether Stern has a clue who it is. It wouldn't surprise me - and in fact, I think it more likely - that she did NOT tell him, and then he put on an act of pretending to know, saying coyly, "Oh, that guy! He's not so vain!" to make it look like he had been let in on the secret. And she, of course, would play along, because it is part of her game.

The comment "I fell into silence for another few years" is a commentary on her musical journey, of course, but it also reminds me that I forgot to add the rest of her 60s story when I was pasting it. I'll go back and add it to the original post, and maybe there is someone else there. Although, was she still the naive girl after Grossman? I dunno.
 
wine allergy? :no:

LOL yeah, that was her preferred explanation for multiple nervous breakdowns. I'm pretty skeptical and figure there were insecurities galore that were in play, with a young naive bronx girl living in France with (perhaps) a successful, self-confident (and maybe vain) man who may have been much her elder and who she was certainly enamored with. (I of course have assumed my description of him, because we know nothing, but that's how I imagine he was.)
 
Has this been solved yet? I have not read the whole thread--but I thought the guy was Warren Beatty.
 
That reminds me of Van Halen's remake of Nicolette Larsen's version of a Neil Young song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsxPxGmeL7Y

:D

Nicolette Larsen died way too soon. She had a golden voice. I read "Shakey" the authorized biography of Neil Young and IIRC, he played the acetate for her in his car and she loved it so much he told her she could have it. Both Larsen and Young's versions are really good. JMO

The Van Halen version. :facepalm:

BTW, I love music trivia and I found this very interesting. Van Halen had a clause in their touring contract that there could be no brown M&M's mixed in with the others for them backstage.

At first blush it just looks like arrogant rock stars being Richards. However, David Lee Roth explained it and it's actually quite ingenious. When Van Halen started touring a lot of the venues they went to didn't have the stage or power requirements for them to do their full show. So by putting the brown M&M's thing into their contract they knew as soon as they got backstage whether or not the promoter had read the contract carefully or not. If there were brown M&M's then they knew they were probably going to have problems setting up.

I took a look at the band list for Another Door and noticed that Tony Levin played on it. I love him. He's the best bassist/stick player in the industry. He's worked with Peter Gabriel and my favorite lineup of King Crimson is Levin, Belew, Bruford and Fripp.

A friend of mine is a music engineer and he did some work for Jerry Marrotta. Tony Levin was there and Marrotta told my friend if he moved to Ithaca he could keep him in work. My friend didn't want to leave this area. It's a shame. From what my musician friends around here tell me he's got a golden ear for things.
 
I think the mystery man in the song 'You're so Vain' is Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones.
 
Very good sleuthing, but Paul was dating Jane Asher and I don't recall any allegations of cheating coming from them. Mal Evans is dead and so is Sinatra. Stern said: "He's not that vain." so, IMO the subject is still alive.

Beg to differ, Steely...Paul routinely cheated on Jane Asher; that's why they broke up. I know, because I was in love with him, too, and he broke my heart. How could be possibly resist a (then) scrawny 12-year-old with snaggle teeth?? Oh Paul...I love you still. You rat.

Hugh Hefner had a Learjet and ties to Nova Scotia.

Hefner only likes women who look like Barbie. Or Barbie Benton.

And as for David Geffen....at one time, he was bisexual. He and Cher were hot and heavy for a time, I remember. Hey, it happens.

I personally think the song is Carly's FU to all the guys who ran roughshod over her heart and acted like jerks. Back in the 60s and 70s, there was a lot of that! I think she cherry-picked traits from each of these dudes and made a composite character, and a great song, and a really fun urban legend.

Great thread, Steely!
 
Beg to differ, Steely...Paul routinely cheated on Jane Asher; that's why they broke up. I know, because I was in love with him, too, and he broke my heart. How could be possibly resist a (then) scrawny 12-year-old with snaggle teeth?? Oh Paul...I love you still. You rat.



Hefner only likes women who look like Barbie. Or Barbie Benton.

And as for David Geffen....at one time, he was bisexual. He and Cher were hot and heavy for a time, I remember. Hey, it happens.

I personally think the song is Carly's FU to all the guys who ran roughshod over her heart and acted like jerks. Back in the 60s and 70s, there was a lot of that! I think she cherry-picked traits from each of these dudes and made a composite character, and a great song, and a really fun urban legend.

Great thread, Steely!

BBM

I've read a lot about the Beatles and never heard that story before. Do you have a link? TIA
 
One more issue with Paul or any of the Beatles - and Mick Jagger too, of course - is how would Carly Simon have ever been in an actual relationship with any of them in the late 60s, when she was an unknown struggling singer with little acclaim, making ends meet and at times singing in club bands. On top of that, a relationship with them that's not a quick tryst, but rather one in which "he" (whoever that is) is promising that it will last forever and he'll never leave. I don't think there's anything to connect any of the Beatles to her in a relationship in the late 60s, and maybe not ever.
 
Just arrived from left field and my guess is Lester Bangs (writer and music critic for Creem and Rolling Stone magazines). Perhaps Carly wrote "You're So Vain" in response to Lester Bangs' essay "James Taylor Marked For Death".

Anyway, great thread, Steely Dan.
 
One more issue with Paul or any of the Beatles - and Mick Jagger too, of course - is how would Carly Simon have ever been in an actual relationship with any of them in the late 60s, when she was an unknown struggling singer with little acclaim, making ends meet and at times singing in club bands. On top of that, a relationship with them that's not a quick tryst, but rather one in which "he" (whoever that is) is promising that it will last forever and he'll never leave. I don't think there's anything to connect any of the Beatles to her in a relationship in the late 60s, and maybe not ever.


There's actually quite a few links between Carly & The Beatles, they had several people in common, including the bass player on You're So Vain. But I agree it doesn't really fit 'never leave' -- unless this was a wry poke at the fact that the promise always was empty, seeing as they were based in England. The Beatles' final album as a proper group was released the day after (or the day before, I can't recall) the total eclipse. Coulda been two "total eclipse" references there... and John and Yoko were in Canada at the time, I think, so maybe one of the others had a good excuse for flying up there... in Franks' borrowed learjet!

Just playing with the idea. ;)
 

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