Zellner Tweets

[BigCityAccountant]

No he didn't say she didn't show up. He was visited Thursday evening by Colborn, and he told him she was there. I'm not sure where the story of him saying she wasn't there started, but I have never read anything that indicated that, other than assumptions as to why he called later that day. IIRC, he did say he saw her leave and I think turned left on to the highway.

..and if she turned left, she would have been heading to I-43.

 

[krkrjx]

It seems to me SA would have street smarts. Maybe not a high IQ but he wasn't mentally retarded or low functioning. And I can't see anyone spending 18 years in state prison and coming out without street smarts. There's just no way this man would have been "too stupid" to know he would be the Number One Suspect if he lured a woman onto his property, killed her, burned her body and her belongings, etc.

He had no motive to set something like this in motion. He had a lot more going for him than people think and his going down for a horrific crime at that precise time saved a lot of people in high places a lot of grief.

Why are some people in this discussion not seeing that brand of circumstantial evidence and how it calls into question so many things about the investigation and trial?

 

[dexter75]

It seems to me SA would have street smarts. Maybe not a high IQ but he wasn't mentally retarded or low functioning. And I can't see anyone spending 18 years in state prison and coming out without street smarts. There's just no way this man would have been "too stupid" to know he would be the Number One Suspect if he lured a woman onto his property, killed her, burned her body and her belongings, etc.

He had no motive to set something like this in motion. He had a lot more going for him than people think and his going down for a horrific crime at that precise time saved a lot of people in high places a lot of grief.

Why are some people in this discussion not seeing that brand of circumstantial evidence and how it calls into question so many things about the investigation and trial?

Yes. My point for months

If I could " thank " 100 times for this:happydance: Tread lightly though, and try not to change anyone's mind.
Just be glad YOU see it:cheers:

 

[dexter75]

BBM

I couldn't agree more with this entire post, Missy. Especially the points I took the pleasure of making BOLD

I have also read many posts where Avery & Dassey's story changed, therefor they are guilty & being untruthful.

If we go back ( Dawn here, being a prime example ) & look, other's stories changed, too.
Stories were " told " but not written in reports or vice versa, PERJURY by LE on the stand, missing phone records,witness statements were taken that couldn't possibly match physical evidence, calls deleted , vm hacked, reports showing up to be turned in months later..So enough folks being untruthful all around, right?

Brendan & Steve were so sinister in that they told different stories. Details didn't match up from one interview to the next, etc. Lets send em both away for life, they're none the wiser, right?

And these upstanding LEO's , prosecutors, business owners/workers get a free pass?? Blows my mind how acceptable this still is to some.


How in the world can so many fingers be pointed at Avery over *67 when there were deleted calls & hacked voicemail?:facepalm:
Missing phone records, what's up with that?:waitasec:

But he wasn't conducting business when selling the van. He was no different than you or I if we called Auto Trader to put a vehicle in the magazine. It was his personal cell phone, not a business phone, and it wasn't being sold under Avery Salvage Yard, the van was Barb's, thus being sold as Barb's. When he sold vehicles before this date, they were under his own name, because he owned them. Tom Janda (Barb's ex), also had Teresa come out in September for a vehicle he sold, it was in his name. And your point about phoning a business and not blocking the number is what some of us have been arguing. When he called Auto Trader (the business), he did not use *67, he was calling a business. It IMO is reasonable that if he was calling her and wasn't sure if it was her number, would use *67.

I think we are all at a disadvantage because of the lack of additional information, so we are assuming things based on our own personal experiences and on tidbits of information that we have learned over the last few months. Strang said that SA used *67 all the time... I would like to see those records. Did he use it when he was buying/selling these vehicles? Was it common for him to use it when calling places that weren't business/gov't agencies? or family/friends.

As far as what he told Auto Trader.... I really don't think we "know" what he did tell Dawn that morning. Her retelling of the story changed. It's evident if you look at the CASO report and then look at her testimony. For example.... she said on November 3rd (3 days after the 31st when she talked to SA), that she knew the Janda's were the Avery's, but when the trial came along, she had no clue. How is that possible? And we aren't supposed to doubt what she says? One small fact like that, which is crucial to the "luring" theory, makes the rest of what she said at the trial in question IMO

The smell ~ I think you are making a point that many of us have made, but the conclusion for me is different. If I understand you correctly, you are saying if someone else burned the body there to frame SA, why didn't he smell it? My thinking is, if SA (or anyone else for that matter), burned the body there, why didn't anyone smell it? Barb? Scott? Earl? Fabian? Brendan? Bobby? Blaine? shoot, I imagine even Delores and Charles could have smelled it if the wind was blowing the right way, other family members IIRC were around that evening too because it was Halloween night.... or even the employee's in the quarry. I agree with you about the smell... but my conclusion is, that she was burned elsewhere and her remains were moved to the firepit and the barrel behind the Dassey/Janda residense. JMO

 

[missy1974]

..and if she turned left, she would have been heading to I-43.

Since you know the area... does that make sense to you? LOL I can look at a map, but sometimes it's not the same as real life experience

 

[dexter75]

BBM

I feel the same as you, Safeguard. The last statement down there, BBM, rings 100% true with me, too:highfive:

My very first post on MAM highlighted what I felt were the real issues we were getting a look at. and I still feel exactly the same. ( incidentally, Missy, your first post was three posts from mine lol! We both watched at the same time! Haha!) I wanted to re-post that first post here, because these are still the issues I would hope to see recognized, when Zellner does what she does best. MAM is not about Steve Avery

sbm

"One thing that is beyond a shadow of a doubt; Making A Murderer exposed the problems in the system with brutal clarity.
"The documentary wasn't about whether Avery was guilty or innocent. It was about the abuse of authority;
confirmation bias;
mishandled conflicts of interest;
the fiction of presumed innocence;
the self-fulfilling prophecy of criminal suspicion;
the impact of emotional coercion in securing witness testimony;

the indulgence and self-congratulation of white hat press conferences and political posturing;
the saccharine of violence-reporting in the media;
the low quality product of state appointed public defenders;

the difficulty of maintaining a plea of innocence in the face of diffident (and seemingly lazy) counsel whose livelihood would be much simpler if everyone would just plea-bargain;
the dilemmas that poverty and low IQ present in a judicial system which presupposes and requires threshold levels of both money and intelligence in order to yield a just outcome;

the impact of pretrial publicity in prejudicing would be jurors;
the unimpeachable status of police 'character' and 'testimony';
the fraternal devotion that officers harbor primarily for their own;

the moral hazard of paid professional witnesses supplying scientific support as hired and directed by the prosecuting team;
the delivering of awards for securing high-profile convictions;
the cavalier and callous attitude that justice officials and employees often have with regard to the frustrated and broken lives of simple suspects;
the inadequacy of appearances in identifying sexual deviants/predators (Right Kratz?);

the troubling idea that a justice system may sufficiently fulfill it's social/communal purpose by merely providing the illusion of justice.

I think the directors did an excellent job of highlighting those problem elements of criminal litigation that are most relevant to cases beyond Avery. I'm persuaded that these types of problems plague almost all criminal proceedings. Again, the question is not whether Avery was or was not guilty (even though this is the leitmotiv that captivates the audience), it's about whether we can trust every single one of the thousands of other convictions reached in a system that is fraught with all of the above impurities."

I imagine most of us knew there was corruption in the system, but the In-Your-Face depiction of the callous disregard for the lives of those deemed somehow, less deserving of a fair shake, was what knocked the wind right out of me.

Last edited by Safeguard; 01-06-2016

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-Steven-Avery-2/page14&highlight=steve+avery

 

[dexter75]

I suppose you never ended up dead on the property of the person(s) who blocked their calls to you, with your remains burned behind their house. I suspect it would only be in hindsight that anyone would think maybe something was up with blocked calls from the person who was hosting your remains in their fire pit mere hours after your visit. Perchance.

Respectfully speaking,

IF this was it, Madeleine74, I absolutely see your point. It is not. what you have typed here isn't the entire picture, nor is there documented proof that the bones were Teresa's or she was burned behind his house.
In addition, there is SO much more to this case than where she was supposedly burned IF the " remains " are even hers to begin with.

Now, if authentic photos with documents from an expert should surface? Perchance

 

[dexter75]

I have a difficult time with a common sentiment of everyone else was lying or mistaken, but not SA. Evidence that might look bad or curious or strange toward SA, it's either ignored, or argued into being part of a conspiracy or framing or coverup or it's twisted into a meaning that is the kindest and most benign meaning for SA.

Frankly that seems far-fetched to me and smacks of not only an inability or unwillingness to be objective, but of pushing an agenda. Not every state witness lied. And there is evidence that can't be explained away unless one goes into the conspiracy abyss. I'm not willing to take that leap without proof. And not just the suggestion or insistence of it, but actual proof. This is why I eagerly await the tests being run by the Zellner team.

Conspiracy, here we go.


The way the investigation was conducted , got me to sit up and pay attention. Clearly I am not the only one, as folks are discussing this world wide.

NO one has said here, that every state witness lied.

I have seen many posts where we have all taken turns talking about things SA did that disgusted us. I have actually seen many agree that certain things SA has done were sick or cruel.

If indeed there are some here who choose to see the good in him, so what. Let them.
Agenda?

What type of agenda?

 

[dexter75]

thanks again... I didn't want to read that again.

Picturing Missy during one of our intense sleuthing sessionsullhair:

totally cross eye'd with hair a mess. circles for days under her eye's because she's not stopping until she finds the answer!:nerves::crosseyed: :giggle:
( 50 tabs open on your PC & all )

Your hard work and dedication doesn't go unnoticed, Missy. Thank you!
I appreciate you guys ( gals ) also, bunches! BCA, Jaiddie, Justiceseeker, Sinsaint, Mystic, Safeguard, CoolJ, Zerbert, & those who are newer & hittin it hard, sleuthing away! :grouphug:

 

[dexter75]

You could very well be right about not knowing if he was dialing the right number. After all, the picture had her number and the Zander Rd address on it. That same Zander Rd address that just bugs the heck out of Dexter. I will forever think of Dexter every single time I pass that road...LOL

:bang::giggle:

 

[Karinna]

She does? How if she hasn't run the necessary tests yet? If she already had the evidence needed to prove it was someone else than why would it take this long and she is still wanting to do tests? Did a test come back already that linked the murder to someone else? I can see her having suspicions about another suspect. Do you have a link Karrina to where she states definitively she knows who the killers is and has evidence to prove it? I would think that would be huge breaking news.

It seems if she had the evidence already of another killer she would bypass the courts and go directly to the Governor and present the evidence that shows BARD that it was someone else so Avery could be released immediately.

thank you in advance.

As i said it is a legal process and Ms. Zellner has to go through everything that process entails. In other words she is getting all her ducks in a row.
She can't submit everything just yet because she has to submit all the information together at the same time. I don't know what it is that people don't get about that?
She keeps reiterating that someone other than SA killed TH and she is going to prove that.

 

[Karinna]

A really good article on Kathleen Zellner,
(quote)
When Kathleen Zellner was little she had a friend across the street who kept a pet duck. Toothbrush was a peaceful soul who liked to eat wasps and paddle around a backyard kiddie pool in their neighborhood in small-town Bartlesville, Oklahoma, in the late 1950s. Zellner was definitely not a peaceful soul—she ordered martial arts guides out of comic books, then hid them behind the covers off her doll books so she could study judo and jujitsu moves without her mother noticing. Zellner regularly put those punches and kicks to practical use. One day, a mean teenage boy grabbed Toothbrush and threw him to hunting dogs penned in a neighbor’s yard. Zellner, about 8 at the time, was furious. “Kathleen was so mad she went over and beat him up. She was fierce,” says her brother, John Hall Thomas, a defense attorney in New Orleans, who remembers the boy’s nose bleeding as an adult pulled his sister off the boy. “Nobody messed with Kathleen after that, I’m telling you.”
Asked whether she and her team have identified suspects in the case, Zellner says yes—and that they are all men who knew Halbach. “We have a couple. I’d say there’s one, leading the pack by a lot. But I don’t want to scare him off, I don’t want him to run,” she says, explaining why she won’t say more. In that same conversation, Zellner said both law enforcement and defense attorneys failed to investigate Halbach’s life, noting that the victim was a very nice person just starting her career. When told that sometimes people who are very nice can still be murder victims, Zellner agrees, adding, “And women who have bad judgment about men are murdered.”
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/04/08/kathleen-zellner-making-murderer-attorney-steve-avery-441470.html

 

[Karinna]

And from the same article
(quote)
Zellner is now digging into every aspect of the Halbach murder and the investigation that followed. She is talking with experts and planning new forensic tests. She has already identified leads she says local detectives should have pursued instead of focusing solely on Avery, including two phone calls Halbach made two days before she was killed to a man recently arrested for sex crimes. She also says she’ll argue Avery’s conviction should be overturned because of ineffective assistance of counsel, arguing that lawyers Dean Strang and Jerry Buting bungled Avery’s defense by not arguing that Halbach’s cellphone records show she left Avery’s property alive. “It’s really hard to figure out how in the world did the defense not seize on this,” Zellner says. “It would have created reasonable doubt.”

 

[Limaes]

He never once denied to anyone that she had been there. Colborn was the first officer to question him about it (11/3) and he said she was there.

He told CA on the 31st that she didn't show up, so he did try to deny it initially.

 

[Limaes]

It seems they are relying on the blood vial being tainted or tampered with even though they already had a credible test recognized by the courts to detect additives and found none in this case. I don't see the results of the prior test changing. So that one retest should tell her a lot if it once again comes back negative. Then she has a problem explaining how his DNA was found in Teresa's vehicle.

There has been much ado about the way the smears looked inside of her vehicle that belonged to Avery. I have never quite understood why others found that suspicious when we have seen many cases that included smears when the suspect made a blood transfer smear when he came in contact with the area where the blood smears were found. It is quite common for suspects to leave part of themselves behind even if they try to be careful. Either they didn't see it at the time or were careless.

Maybe Avery had plans to destroy her vehicle by crushing it flatter than a sardine can and didn't worry about what was inside of it.

So does his innocence hinge on the blood vial having an additive in it, and if it once again, shows it doesn't have any, then what?

If it again shows no EDTA I doubt she will be making an announcement. If her testing claims it does then it means there are two different tests with two different results which will require a further test. The State will not be taking this lying down imo.

 

[Limaes]

Right. Plus he told everyone in the known universe he had to leave work early to meet up with her. So...

Of course he did. That is what made them suspects also. Can't cast suspicion on them if they never even knew she was coming. Can he?

 

[Limaes]

You can't trick someone into going to a known address. I can't speak for BCA, but I myself would not have been afraid to use that restroom just because I was all..ewwww, even if I knew they were having a threesome in there. (When you gotta go, you gotta go).

When Teresa arrived, she parked in front of the Janda home because that is who she thought had booked her services, not SA. So yes, she was tricked.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Since you know the area... does that make sense to you? LOL I can look at a map, but sometimes it's not the same as real life experience

Yes, absolutely. She would have turned left heading toward the on ramp to go south on I-43. She would then have exited at 10/310. I'd have to look at the map again, if she continued west from 147, I don't think she would have been pinging off that Whitelaw tower. Possible, but I think it is too far south.

 

[Safeguard]

Of course he did. That is what made them suspects also. Can't cast suspicion on them if they never even knew she was coming. Can he?

"That is what made them suspects also."?? Ummm... Yeah... ok. It wouldn't make them witnesses against him or anything. That Steve Avery guy truly IS an evil genius. I never would have thought of that.

 

[Karinna]

I don't think i would be relying too much on detecting EDTA from blood samples lifted for forensic testing because of the dilutions involved and because of the miniscule amount of EDTA in a vial used to preserve the sample. IMO it's junk science.