Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams & Liberty (Libby) German - The Delphi Murders - #149

[M. Kay]

KAK, in my opinion easily has the manipulation skills to get a couple of young girls to leave their home for a casual meet up, and make them think it was their idea. Isn't that what "grooming" all about? Making the victim(s) feel special and gain their trust? Isn't that what predators do in nature...isolate the young from protective adults?

This expresses very clearly, so well, the probable. That he was already confident in her interest. I am remembering that age, waiting for the phone call, feeling chosen. Another post in this thread now uses the word 'power' in his control, reminding me of D.Carter. saying "we know this is about power to you." CSAM obsessions of the K's, all so overpowering and yes, as Ravenmoon mentions, those vulnerable are expendable in predators' eye. Heartbreaking.

 

[sandy_80]

SANDY80...Hmmm, I did read something in your post that has a VERY SIMPLE and SPECIFIC answer. And, I never would have thought about it if I hadn't read your post.
My killer(s) (ie killer with his look out/spotter) The location is actually a "no brainer" answer. Where else could one lure two unsuspecting teenagers to ensure proximity and isolation. We are talking about 2 young girls who had to rely on others for transportation. It wasn't as if they could have gotten their parents or siblings to drive them 45 miles to Kokomo to meet Anth_Shots, huh? It would be so easy to lure two young girls to a large public park, not raise parental concern and yet have areas where he could also isolate them, too. However, if A_Shots said he was going to be in Delphi, looking for modeling locations, two young girls would jump at the opportunity to catch a glimpse of him. KAK, in my opinion easily has the manipulation skills to get a couple of young girls to leave their home for a casual meet up, and make them think it was their idea. Isn't that what "grooming" all about? Making the victim(s) feel special and gain their trust? Isn't that what predators do in nature...isolate the young from protective adults?
And sending my searchlight out for @gitana1 (No problem if you are busy else where, as my answer can surely wait as long as it takes) ... a spouse can not be compelled to testify, right? But what about other closely related family members?

what you imply..is based on assumptions
assumption that there was an actual in depth long contact between libby and the account..which we have no evidence off ..and if it is there ..then why wasn't it found on libby's phone ?
and why take a gf with her..or this was also instructions she received?
this by all means looks like an innocent girls hiking trip..in my books

 

[sandy_80]

If you don't mind I would like to ask you something about your own thoughts.
You believe that this is the work of a Serial Killer, correct? I certainly cannot disagree with you here- but can we say for certain that KAK is not a budding SK or that the person closest to him is already that, and has remained undetected for a stretch of time?
Do you believe that this person (the SK) stays within a certain mile radius or that they travel?
I am guessing you might lean towards the first because of his familiarity with that area?
I believe that some Serial Killers are referred to as being "Visionary." This typically would mean that this individual believes they are being directed by god, demonic forces or even a made up person to carry out killings for the better of society.
I can't see how someone with that particular affliction would go undetected in this particular case and in this particular area.
Another type could be A Hedonistic Killer. This is one that I could see getting away with this crime for a while. This one gets pleasure from murdering. They love the way it makes them feel and they do not see people as valuable. They see them as expendable. Guess who I believe would fit this to a "T"? (Pun intended.")They also like the power and control they get from being able to decide who lives and who dies.
I enjoy reading your posts. You give us something extra to think over.
Now...I would love to hear more about why you feel adamant that the K's aren't responsible.

As always,
JMO

EBM to add a thought.

I don't necessary think he is a SK ..its not the 80s and we cant use the term so freely as they are def not as common as before and much harder to detect
what I suggest is def a sociopath and a potential SK ..unusual enough for our times to leave a shocking crime scene with ( not what you expect to see at a crime scene ) ..

concerning the klines...I feel that i know this case well enough to know which suspects are possible or not
you don't pick a suspect and then force him to fit the case.. which what i see ppl doing here
first I can not accept any possibility of kak as BG .. for me its impossible cause i have that video ..and sure ur free to see what you want to see
about his dad..he doesn't even have that violent criminal past that makes me consider him..not to mention a team of dad/son killers with targeted young girls with a staged crime scene .. makes no sense to me ..nor does it fit this case
and when you have a suspect for a case you know.. then motives should be apparent ..not a host of theories like i see with the klines

 

[iamnotagolem]

I don't necessary think he is a SK ..its not the 80s and we cant use the term so freely as they are def not as common as before and much harder to detect
what I suggest is def a sociopath and a potential SK ..unusual enough for our times to leave a shocking crime scene with ( not what you expect to see at a crime scene ) ..

concerning the klines...I feel that i know this case well enough to know which suspects are possible or not
you don't pick a suspect and then force him to fit the case.. which what i see ppl doing here
first I can not accept any possibility of kak as BG .. for me its impossible cause i have that video ..and sure ur free to see what you want to see
about his dad..he doesn't even have that violent criminal past that makes me consider him..not to mention a team of dad/son killers with targeted young girls with a staged crime scene .. makes no sense to me ..nor does it fit this case
and when you have a suspect for a case you know.. then motives should be apparent ..not a host of theories like i see with the klines

The video and sketches make it hard for me to believe the Klines killed the girls. But then I think, what if there was no video? Would I believe it then? A couple years ago I got to thinking maybe the video isn’t the killer and that’s what is keeping this case from being solved.

There are a few cases where I wonder if the video is actually hindering the investigation because there is too much focus on the video rather than actual investigation. Missy Bevers, Elizabeth Barraza, and another that escapes me right now.

 

[Ozoner]

I don't necessary think he is a SK ..its not the 80s and we cant use the term so freely as they are def not as common as before and much harder to detect
what I suggest is def a sociopath and a potential SK ..unusual enough for our times to leave a shocking crime scene with ( not what you expect to see at a crime scene ) ..

concerning the klines...I feel that i know this case well enough to know which suspects are possible or not
you don't pick a suspect and then force him to fit the case.. which what i see ppl doing here
first I can not accept any possibility of kak as BG .. for me its impossible cause i have that video ..and sure ur free to see what you want to see
about his dad..he doesn't even have that violent criminal past that makes me consider him..not to mention a team of dad/son killers with targeted young girls with a staged crime scene .. makes no sense to me ..nor does it fit this case
and when you have a suspect for a case you know.. then motives should be apparent ..not a host of theories like i see with the klines

As an amateur, I don't expect my opinion to mean much to many people. However, I will point out that even though I'm an amateur, I'm an amateur who has followed and researched hundreds of contemporary and historical true-crume cases over the past 37 years, starting with the disappearance of Cindy Moore in May of 1985 and the abduction, murder, and dismemberment of Detroit-area psychiatrist Alan Canty that same summer. I was aware of cases that made the headlines even earlier, but those were the first two cases that I followed closely.

In my considered opinion, the motive for these murders was sexual gratification—period. Even if the perp only planned to rape the girls, which I doubt, the escalation to murder occurred because the killer experienced
sexual gratification by killing the girls.

That is true regardless of whether BG is KAK, TK, or someone else. It is true regardless of whether the killer knew the girls would be there or whether he chose them at random because the opportunity presented itself, in my opinion.

Any theory that requires a different motive can be rejected as totally invalid, in my opinion.

 

[TL4S]

The video and sketches make it hard for me to believe the Klines killed the girls. But then I think, what if there was no video? Would I believe it then? A couple years ago I got to thinking maybe the video isn’t the killer and that’s what is keeping this case from being solved.

There are a few cases where I wonder if the video is actually hindering the investigation because there is too much focus on the video rather than actual investigation. Missy Bevers, Elizabeth Barraza, and another that escapes me right now.

So much emphasis and speculation surrounds that video, which is understandable because it's footage of who LE has claimed to be the suspect, but I go back to something I posted here about a month ago:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

The grainy photo police released was taken on the popular Monon High Bridge. Police say the picture has already been enhanced, and their description is no better than a white male in a blue jacket and blue jeans.

"We can't provide height or weight," Slocum said. "The picture speaks for itself."

And now the description has been removed from the ISP and FBI sites, because ISP doesn't want people focusing just on that. I think the description was originally based on witness accounts, not the video, and at this point with the descriptions gone, I'm not then going to wholly relying on what I see in that video, because it's of poor quality and I have no idea if there's distortion. I'll neither entertain nor dismiss a suspect based solely on his comparison to that video.

 

[MichMan015]

I agree the motive was sexual gratification. Don’t forget that Abby supposedly had phone issues and had someone help her reset her phone. This wipes clean chat logs etc. This was done just prior to her sleepover with Abby before the murder and after the sleepover at their friends. Conveniently erasing how long she had been conversing with AS. There is no history to know if this communication with AS went on a few days or weeks and before their first meet up the phone is wiped clean, how convenient.

I really don’t believe that this murder was random at all, I used to but not any more. It’s not co-incidental that she is groomed by a child predator for sex pictures, that is 100% intentional! I don’t think it was coincidental she wiped here phone days before the meet up. She was likely following instructions to do that. That info was to revealing. Did KK, have the other phone she was communicating with?

Did they go to the bridge and was randomly spotted as prey for a child predator? Doubtful! In a small town, in a location that provided the perp all he needed to hide from any watchful eyes. Doubtful! Remember my comment about if walks and talks like a duck. Well there is a twist that is what we don’t know. The police know the how and we know the when and where but we don’t have The Who nailed down. KK is talking and what he knows is coming out albeit slowly.

Michman015

 

[IQuestion]

what you imply..is based on assumptions
assumption that there was an actual in depth long contact between libby and the account..which we have no evidence off ..and if it is there ..then why wasn't it found on libby's phone ?
and why take a gf with her..or this was also instructions she received?
this by all means looks like an innocent girls hiking trip..in my books

bbm above: I am feeling more assured of my assumptions. In the absence of any new information all any of has is assumptions. But, I prefer to think of it as common sense combined with history and Mother's intuition. Technically, KAK not having a previous criminal history puts him in the category of a "young first time offender with health issues who fell victim to an online addiction. A young man who has never caused any problems for the community and lives with his ailing father." Blah, blah, blah and gagging as I type those words. The fact is, KAK remains in jail for two years and NO ONE has posted bail for him. Is he a flight risk? Put him on home monitoring, and forbid him from accessing the internet. Afterall, he is innocent until proven guilty, right? I find myself asking, "What is it about this guy that makes everything different?" Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why???

 

[M. Kay]

I find myself asking, "What is it about this guy that makes everything different? Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why???

"You're guess is as good as mine" ...or, maybe even better.

 

[minazoe]

"You're guess is as good as mine" ...or, maybe even better.

my best guess would be certain clientele..

 

[sandy_80]

I agree the motive was sexual gratification. Don’t forget that Abby supposedly had phone issues and had someone help her reset her phone. This wipes clean chat logs etc. This was done just prior to her sleepover with Abby before the murder and after the sleepover at their friends. Conveniently erasing how long she had been conversing with AS. There is no history to know if this communication with AS went on a few days or weeks and before their first meet up the phone is wiped clean, how convenient.

I really don’t believe that this murder was random at all, I used to but not any more. It’s not co-incidental that she is groomed by a child predator for sex pictures, that is 100% intentional! I don’t think it was coincidental she wiped here phone days before the meet up. She was likely following instructions to do that. That info was to revealing. Did KK, have the other phone she was communicating with?

Did they go to the bridge and was randomly spotted as prey for a child predator? Doubtful! In a small town, in a location that provided the perp all he needed to hide from any watchful eyes. Doubtful! Remember my comment about if walks and talks like a duck. Well there is a twist that is what we don’t know. The police know the how and we know the when and where but we don’t have The Who nailed down. KK is talking and what he knows is coming out albeit slowly.

Michman015

we dont know why the phone was reset
also
they actually instructed her to be at the bridge all that time before at a specific date/day and then nothing !
i find all that so much harder to believe than a random killer
being fooled by a picture online is one thing and implying this was a case of complete manipulation of smart girls is something else.. those were aware girls who caught their killer ..

 

[gitana1]

SANDY80...Hmmm, I did read something in your post that has a VERY SIMPLE and SPECIFIC answer. And, I never would have thought about it if I hadn't read your post.
My killer(s) (ie killer with his look out/spotter) The location is actually a "no brainer" answer. Where else could one lure two unsuspecting teenagers to ensure proximity and isolation. We are talking about 2 young girls who had to rely on others for transportation. It wasn't as if they could have gotten their parents or siblings to drive them 45 miles to Kokomo to meet Anth_Shots, huh? It would be so easy to lure two young girls to a large public park, not raise parental concern and yet have areas where he could also isolate them, too. However, if A_Shots said he was going to be in Delphi, looking for modeling locations, two young girls would jump at the opportunity to catch a glimpse of him. KAK, in my opinion easily has the manipulation skills to get a couple of young girls to leave their home for a casual meet up, and make them think it was their idea. Isn't that what "grooming" all about? Making the victim(s) feel special and gain their trust? Isn't that what predators do in nature...isolate the young from protective adults?
And sending my searchlight out for @gitana1 (No problem if you are busy else where, as my answer can surely wait as long as it takes) ... a spouse can not be compelled to testify, right? But what about other closely related family members?

Other close family can be compelled to testify.

 

[IQuestion]

Other close family can be compelled to testify.

gitana1 YOU ARE THE BEST!!! Thank you.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

what you imply..is based on assumptions
assumption that there was an actual in depth long contact between libby and the account..which we have no evidence off ..and if it is there ..then why wasn't it found on libby's phone ?
and why take a gf with her..or this was also instructions she received?
this by all means looks like an innocent girls hiking trip..in my books

Everything, everybody here, including you and me, are saying is speculation and assumption. Thoughts about serial killers, theories about locals and LE involvement, psychopaths and sociopath, catfishers and internet predators…everything. And I think most everybody keeps all these things in their brains stored away. I know I do. I have my main opinion at this moment, but I I know those others are still possibilities. I know this because LE in this case has given us absolutely nothing in this case.

Here is a list of information LE has officially put out for us:
…a photo of the guy on the bridge
…a 2 second video of BG
…a 4 word audio clip
…a mention of a vehicle at the CPS parking lot with no description of the vehicle
…two useless sketches
…a request by the Delphi Task Force for information on the anthony_shots internet profile

I don’t know how you expect definitive evidence about anything considering we all know virtually nothing. There is no evidence, from LE, that Libby communicated with KAK, but many people theorize it is so, based on other things. There is no evidence, from LE, that the killer is a sociopath, or a serial killer, or a psychopath, but many people theorize that he is From other things. No evidence the killer is local or in LE, but some people think so.
We can’t discount anybody’s speculation based on evidence that has been provided since hardly any has been provided. All of our opinions are based on things we have seen and read that did not come from LE. We are all in a way grasping at straws. It is maddening and frustrating and frankly, it’s a shame LE has allowed this to happen.
My point is, everyone’s theory on what happened has merit at this point and deserves respectful discussion instead of being dismissed out of hand like something that should be flushed down the toilet.
The truth will come out eventually and however it falls I will be jubilant whether it is how I thought it would be or not.

 

[TL4S]

We certainly have not been told by LE or anyone else that KAK or anybody related to him or his a_shots account is, without doubt, the killer of these two girls. Fair enough. But, the ISP did request tips on a_shots go to the A&L tip line. BP and KG have both confirmed that L had communicated with the a_shots account. KG communicated with a_shots herself the night L and A went missing, after KG logged into L's SM accounts to contact those people L had been in contact with. KAK was interviewed in 2020, and regardless if we believe the things LE said, he was asked about Delphi, nonetheless, and admitted at least to being in contact with L's friend. In fact, although somewhat contradictory to him saying he'd only talked to her friend, he later admitted as much as saying he knew it looked bad since he'd been in contact with "her," referring to L.

So whether or not KAK/a_shots is the killer, this admitted and charged catfisher DID communicate with L. No, we don't know to what extent, especially considering that LE could have lied about things in the interview, but IMO, there's no denying some sort of connection between a_shots and L during a period shortly before her death. JMO.

 

[Arkay]

what you imply..is based on assumptions
assumption that there was an actual in depth long contact between libby and the account..which we have no evidence off ..and if it is there ..then why wasn't it found on libby's phone ?
and why take a gf with her..or this was also instructions she received?
this by all means looks like an innocent girls hiking trip..in my books

Unless any of us here are directly involved with this case, we are all distant bystanders, and assumptions are all we have. Speculation, opinion, conjecture and assumptions.

When you say, "in my books," that means an assumption, too.

 

[Boxer]

We certainly have not been told by LE or anyone else that KAK or anybody related to him or his a_shots account is, without doubt, the killer of these two girls. Fair enough. But, the ISP did request tips on a_shots go to the A&L tip line. BP and KG have both confirmed that L had communicated with the a_shots account. KG communicated with a_shots herself the night L and A went missing, after KG logged into L's SM accounts to contact those people L had been in contact with. KAK was interviewed in 2020, and regardless if we believe the things LE said, he was asked about Delphi, nonetheless, and admitted at least to being in contact with L's friend. In fact, although somewhat contradictory to him saying he'd only talked to her friend, he later admitted as much as saying he knew it looked bad since he'd been in contact with "her," referring to L.

So whether or not KAK/a_shots is the killer, this admitted and charged catfisher DID communicate with L. No, we don't know to what extent, especially considering that LE could have lied about things in the interview, but IMO, there's no denying some sort of connection between a_shots and L during a period shortly before her death. JMO.

She opened a door to hell with SnapChat and Yellow at a minimum. So the years where trying on identities

 

[MichMan015]

Agree!!!!

 

[M. Kay]

sandy_80 said:
what you imply..is based on assumptions
assumption that there was an actual in depth long contact between libby and the account...

I posted this resource previously: Libby German's sister spoke publicly to all at Crime Con. She detailed her personal discovery that night of search, how she went into Libby's phone account to see who she was last in touch with. Kelsi German was shocked and angry that her little sister had an ongoing, intimate interchange with A_Shots. Many at a slumber party had witnessed their video interaction. Crime Con venue is a solid source here on WS/TOS. Let's remember that family and investigators have had this information as well as the phone found at creek site from beginning.
No, this is not evidence of murder; it is evidence of associations meriting thorough local inquiry of what possibly led to murder.

 

[Boxer]

sandy_80 said:
what you imply..is based on assumptions
assumption that there was an actual in depth long contact between libby and the account...

I posted this resource previously: Libby German's sister spoke publicly to all at Crime Con. She detailed her personal discovery that night of search, how she went into Libby's phone account to see who she was last in touch with. Kelsi German was shocked and angry that her little sister had an ongoing, intimate interchange with A_Shots. Many at a slumber party had witnessed their video interaction. Crime Con venue is a solid source here on WS/TOS. Let's remember that family and investigators have had this information as well as the phone found at creek site from beginning.
No, this is not evidence of murder; it is evidence of associations meriting thorough local inquiry of what possibly led to murder.

Agree. Libby’s internet contact with online predators is what changed her from a well supervised teen living in a good home with low risk factors, to a teen with a high risk factor of being known to and engaging with online predators.