17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #35

[vlpate]

[/B]
BBM
Why didn't GZ simply say, "hey, I'm with the neighborhood watch group. You look a little lost, can I help you?"

Because he wasn't supposed to approach him? Watching where he is going after he starts running is not approaching him, it's watching him to see where he is running to, which is why it's called "Neighborhood Watch". JMO

 

[Donjeta]

As soon as keeping an eye on a potential criminal trespasser is characterized as "stalking," I lose interest in the conversation.

Happily you are not obliged to be interested in anything I have to say but I will reply anyway in case someone else is.

This argument confuses two things that are in fact totally separate. What GZ thought he was doing and what TM thought he was doing. In George Zimmerman's mind he may have been keeping an eye on a potential criminal but TM had no access to George Zimmerman's private thoughts unless GZ told him what he was up to and couldn't have known that GZ was not a stalker. If he wasn't doing anything wrong at the time it may not have even occurred to TM that he was a potential criminal that needs to be followed to keep everyone safe.

Same for accepting and adopting the media's characterization of George as "white," as in white supremacist. Imo, George does not appear to be a stereotypical "white" person by a long shot, and suggesting that he could legitimately be stereotyped by Trayvon as such is, imo, completely beyond the realm of reasonable discourse. In fact, the MS account that recently surfaced ::cough::: pretty much establishes that George does not consider himself to be "white" and that his friends include blacks and other minorities in large numbers.

Again, this confuses things that we now know about George and assumes that TM should have known all these things about George Zimmerman at first sight, in the dark, never having heard of him before and never having seen his myspace.

He is identified as white in the jail logs. He looks white enough to me that I for sure wouldn't be able to tell that he couldn't possibly be a white supremacist if I saw him following me in the dark and the rain.

Furthermore, white supremacism is a state of mind, not a genetically determined feature. I know a couple of skinheads whose own ancestors are somewhat mixed but it doesn't seem to matter to them.

 

[Donjeta]

Idk, but I would guess it was because he perceived himself as, between the two of them, the person rightfully where he was and Trayvon as a person who was not. He had not seen Trayvon in the neighborhood before and perceived him as a potential criminal threat. Under the circumstances, rightfully or wrongfully, he probably wasn't putting himself into the mind of an innocent kid visiting the neighborhood, but rather putting himself into the mind of a potential criminal. If that was his mindset, and I believe that it was, I can see how his first thought would be to ask the questions, and not to respond to Trayvon. jmo

I wonder if you recognize that you allow that GZ couldn't have put himself in the stranger's proper mindset without knowing the stranger's motives but at the same time you expect that TM should have been able to read GZ's mind and identify his ancestral background and the ethnic variation in his friendship circle from one look in the dark.

 

[Karmady]

I wonder if you recognize that you allow that GZ couldn't have put himself in the stranger's proper mindset without knowing the stranger's motives but at the same time you expect that TM should have been able to read GZ's mind and identify his ancestral background and the ethnic variation in his friendship circle from one look in the dark.

I don't know what you're talking about. George is blatently, objectively, not "white" in his appearance. No need to make any assumptions. He was standing right there and Trayvon was looking at him. Probably why Trayvon called him homes, if he called him that.

My comment about his black friends on MS had nothing to do with Trayvon's perception...just more confirmation of the obvious. George is not "white."

 

[vlpate]

Great discussion - have a good night! illowfight2::bedtime:illowfight2:

 

[highflyer]

Karmady I'm sorry for the end of my last post to you. Came back to edit it and apologize but it is gone so I'll just say I was over the top on my last line in the post. I'm sorry.

 

[KateNY]

So which way did he run, according to these maps? He was running toward the back gate, according to the 911 call - he was walking down the "sidewalk" between the buildings, according to most news accounts and Tracy. So, please explain why, unless GZ was parked in the courtyard, TM had to go past his truck? TIA

Here's some posts, hope that helps explain what I was referring to


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7746504&postcount=121"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #14[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7801354&postcount=992"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7801527&postcount=1012"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26[/ame]



TM was at the Clubhouse area (perGZ)
TM had to pass by GZ truck to get to the other side of the complex

walking or running...only 2 ppl really know

and one is not here to give his account of events

 

[AngelWings444]

OT-I have been super sick. Woke up thinking it was early evening. :blushing:

Can anyone give me the short version from the past couple of days?

 

[Donjeta]

I don't know what you're talking about. George is blatently, objectively, not "white" in his appearance. No need to make any assumptions. He was standing right there and Trayvon was looking at him. Probably why Trayvon called him homes, if he called him that.

My comment about his black friends on MS had nothing to do with Trayvon's perception...just more confirmation of the obvious. George is not "white."

That is your perception but there is nothing objective about it imo. People's perceptions may differ and in fact there are are official documents disputing your opinion.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.commissary.purchases.pdf

Do you think none of the people in jail never got a good look at him in conditions that were a lot better lit than when TM was looking at him? They have listed GZ as white.

Maybe that's what GZ says when he gets asked his race. You'd think it would be important to him to have this corrected if it's going to be significant in his defense that he is not white.

I'm not sure what his friends list has to do with what he is.
White people may have Black friends and Asian friends on their myspace and vice versa, the last time I checked. and it wasn't like his friends list was all non-white people so I'm not sure what how his race can be determined from his MS.

Anyway, my point was not that George is a white supremacist or even that TM thought him as such, my point was that you are giving GZ slack when saying that he couldn't have known that TM was just a kid with Skittles going home and not a burglar and at the same time you're saying that TM should have been able to read GZ's mind and instinctively know that he was an overzealous NW captain who had mistaken TM for a burglar and would have happily trotted off if he was informed that TM lived there. There are several other things that might occur to a person when they see someone following them and GZ's NW status was not immediately obvious TM unless he identified himself as a NW person.

So we can't judge TM's actions on the basis of what a reasonable person would have done if they were confronted by a mistaken NW person unless he actually knew that he was dealing with a mistaken NW person. If he thought he was dealing with a pervy stalker or a mugger or someone who hates AA kids he wouldn't have responded similarly.

 

[sleonardelli]

Yes. This.

Prejudice. I think that would have been a better word than racism, but it all comes from the same place. Hatred based on something a person can not control. Their race, sexual orientation, gender, nationality.

I'm not really stunned by the MS page? It is what it is. I always thought he was a punk himself and had no reason to prejudge others as punks.

MOO

IMO, bigot would be the appropriate term.

 

[sleonardelli]

I personally think he has watched way too many movies. His postings on his MS page makes him sound like a gangbanger/ himself, which I find ironic because that is what he was calling other people --- he didn't even know.

MOO

IMO, his own language on that MS page matches how he described what Trayvon said to him (will look for link).

"What's you're problem homes?"

 

[Ambrosia]

For one, imo, George obviously wasn't concerned about his own safety, but that of his neighbors and, two, in connection with your earlier post, he did call the police.

Imo, it's all about the context. It is established that there were recent break-ins in the community which are known to have been perpetrated by young men, the majority of whom were black. George had recently assisted a woman whose home was broken into by this same group of criminals while she was in the home with an infant. That woman had to hide with the baby, most certainly praying for her and her child's life the entire time, and George was aware of this and had assisted her. These same criminals or "a&%holes" (personally, I think the shoe more than fits) did, in fact, "get away," as they fled out her back door just as the police arrived.


It was completely fortuitous that George was wrong about Trayvon. Imo, he had every right to be suspicious and I would have been, as well. Very much so, in fact.

For those reasons, I believe that what George did up to the moment of confrontation is, potentially, completely reasonable. It's what happened in those last seconds that matters to me.

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at *advertiser censored* address."

I made up this myself. Think of it as a story I made up based of both fact and fiction. And when GZ, the same stranger who you described to your GF as watching you from his vehicle moments ago and out of sight from the road, appears suddenly in front of you in the flesh on the path. LOL He took the short cut. You know that first cut-through right down the street from his truck. One of his NW pals lives there. You can even see the whole central path walkway right from his porch. The "oh sh** naw!" moment came when he tried the porch and found it was locked. But good thing he knew the signal. Only Z would knock like that. Now standing there out of the weather and plotting the next move. Seeing but not being seen. By now he knew the routine and how long it would take for them to arrive. You would be his catch. If anything went wrong he would also have a witness, or so he thought. He will go around the other way and wait for police and if you tried to run? Z had you spotted from that porch by the time he got off the phone to dispatch. Yet said nothing. And as soon as he hungs up it will be time to act and you will make him look real good. He's sizes you up to hold you there? You size him up to get away? You are tall and lanky in your tennies in the slippery wet grass. He is shorter, stocky, down to 180 and wearing his boots. He's blocking your path and when you ask him why he is following you? He didn't answer and didn't identify himself as NW either, but came back with a question: "what are you doing here?" You hope he doesn't try and grab you. He reaches, then you see the gun. He's got a hold on you. You scuffle and break free and run, and your phone goes. You head down the sidewalk, turn corner at the T. As you do you see someone else standing there with the intention to capture you. You panic and as you turn around, realize that you still holding on to that can of tea, which you toss in the grass. You want to stay on the sidewalk to get a grip. You head towards the top of the T but he is there. You attempt to run past his left, in the grass. You are tackled.... Perhaps you should have given your name and address to that stranger who never identied himself. Even if he never thought to ask. But then you never thought it would get this crazy did you? Nobody did. That's why they are saying you ambushed him out of the blue. Yeah, that will work. Just ignore a few tiny things, cover your ears and put it in context.

 

[claudicici]

I don't know how much the newfound myspace has been discussed but wow it was really disturbing to me how much of a GZ really is.
I think that Myspace clearly shows his frame of mind is that he thinks he is superior,he is proud of his charges and even more proud to beat them and gives "shout outs" to a pressumed fan club.

 

[sleonardelli]

To hold us to something we did at 21 when we are 28, yes, not right. To hold someone like TM to something they did a week or two before, is reasonable. And I am not talking about the "bling", as that is a fashion thing. I am talking about the two extended middle fingers, the empty pot baggie, the jewelery (which was being investigated) the vandalism of the school, etc. These are things he (TM) was CURRENTLY doing.

But the bottom line is that they HAD to smear GZ, because all the physical evidence and even the CIRCUMSTANCIAL evidence points to TM being the aggressor in the fight.

IMO, but flipping the bird is part of teen culture even though it appalls me as to how often I have to correct my 15-year-old or have him remove offensive comments from his FB page.

IMO, the photos of GZ's injuries aren't even "circumstancial" evidence of who was the aggressor. They are evidence of a struggle but the injuries could've been cause by a wide variety of things during a scuffle. Apparently, in your eyes, Trayvon had no right to stand his ground when he had no idea if GZ would cause him harm.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://reliablesources.blogs.cnn.co...rter-attacked-for-coverage-of-trayvon-martin/

Miami Herald reporter, Frances Robles, joins Howard Kurtz to discuss covering the controversial Trayvon Martin case in Sanford, FL.

 

[sleonardelli]

The marks on GZ. Now present YOUR evidence that GZ struck first.

GZ's injuries, while indicative of a struggle, do NOT suggest who INITIATED the confrontation. IMO, it seems reasonable that Trayvon could've just as easily been defending himself while GZ may have been trying to detain him.

 

[Gin]

[quote=Karmady;7862108]As soon as keeping an eye on a potential criminal trespasser is characterized as "stalking," I lose interest in the conversation.

Same for accepting and adopting the media's characterization of George as "white," as in white supremacist. Imo, George does not appear to be a stereotypical "white" person by a long shot, and suggesting that he could legitimately be stereotyped by Trayvon as such is, imo, completely beyond the realm of reasonable discourse. In fact, the MS account that recently surfaced ::cough::: pretty much establishes that George does not consider himself to be "white" and that his friends include blacks and other minorities in large numbers.[/quote]

JMO/IMO BBM
There have always been people with lots of free time on their hands that like to "keep an eye" on their neighbors, visitors. If someone wants to peer out of their window for hours a day, aspiring to be a 2012 version of Mrs. Kravitz, that's their choice.

If they want to "watch" as they walk around the block, that's also their choice.
But if/when they choose to start following, stalking, that's creepy. Few people want a creepy stalker for a neighbor.

Private citizens have no business acting like police officers. 911 is an easy number to remember. If there's a problem, call.

 

[rossva]

Post of the day.


JMO

While I understand that the "jmo" at the bottom should give one a piece of mind that they are ONLY stating an opinion, but the opinion you have stated appears to contain information that is lacking. First, he did not assault a "law enforcement agent", he PUSHED an UNDERCOVER cop, who had NOT identified himself as an officer. NOT the same. And that was 7 YEARS ago. As for the domestic violence, there was NEVER a conviction, just a claim by his soon to be ex, and after it went to trial, BOTH sides were granted protective orders.

I do find it interesting on here how the Trayvon supporters are grasping onto ANYTHING that points to Zimmerman as a racist, and poo pooing anything that paints Martin in a bad light, and that is very sloppy "sleuth" work.

 

[rossva]

BBM Please do not speak for "ALL" of us.

BBM Sounds an awful like what could have happened when Trayvon was confronted by George? Wonder if it would have been alright for this undercover officer to shoot and kill George right then and there? Self-defense an all?? :banghead:

Also, I don't have to grasp. I know what George Zimmerman is. I just choose not to turn a blind eye to it for whatever reason. Casey Anthony wasn't found guilty for Caylee's murder, but we all know she murdered Caylee. Just because George was able to wiggle out of any charges doesn't mean that he doesn't have violent tendencies.

MOO

 

[rossva]

BBM link please?

You know what makes sense to me? George Zimmerman getting out of that truck with the mindframe that "These *advertiser censored**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "*advertiser censored**ing punk" He admits that Trayvon was running away from him. He admits that he is following Travyon. When George finally caught up to Trayvon and Trayvon asked "Why are you following me?" Don't you think it might have been a nice time to identify himself and not reach for his "phone"? Which imo, reaching for his phone was reaching for his gun! This is when Trayvon seen the gun, according to Daddy Zimmerman, which would also make sense that the girlfriend heard a pushing sound right before the phone went dead. George was going for his gun. Trayvon was protecting himself.

MOO

ETA: You know what also makes sense? Trayvon was running away from a confrontation. George was running towards one.