2008.07.03 CA's Myspace-...doesn't make sense REVISITED

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For what its worth, its my opinion. I think this family is some what normal. Ca is a little controlling, but nothing out of the ordinary. The children were well taken care of. I can tell this by the pictures of the bedrooms and all the clothes and shoes. Caylee was loved by all. Lee was just doing his part and helping in anyway he could. Kc is much closer to Ga than anyone can even imagine. They are not estranged. She has always been able to depend on her dad for help. Does not surprise me that she went to him. She can hand the cans over and say heres your *advertiser censored**** gas cans because she knows her father loves her unconditionally. I am not convinced that Kc is a sociopath. Not sure what that is, but am waiting for a professional diagnosis. Not sure about the lies either, since everything she was interogated about was a false date, june 9th. I think we can disect any family and find where there could be flaws and personallity disorders. We have learned so much about this family without actually seeing them interact with Caylee, we have learned to hate them. Normally you would see the good and the bad and the ugly and in the end say, hmmm normal american family, but here we are only seeing the bad and the ugly, so our imagination begins to wander. In my opinion, this is a simple typical american family. MOO
Normal and typical...yeah, those are words you hear every day when discussing the Anthony family dynamic...normal as can be and typical...of? :waitasec: I don't know what kind of folks YOU know :) but I know a LOT of messed up people, and am related to a great number of them, and the Anthonys do not fit into what I think of as normal in any way shape or form. Nothing about them says normal or typical...unless we are looking at the segment of society who have emotional problems, psychological issues, and control dilemnas...THEN, in that case, yep, they are as normal as it gets in their own segment of society...Normal...huh...that's a new one.
Well I will agree that you can not use that as the only thing, but with the testimony of others saying Kc was a good mother and that Caylee seemed happy,normal, and the pictures that show it, I came to that conclusion. Caylee was well taken care of and cared for. I buy my children clothing all the time and I don't consider it junk, but it certainly does not mean I am materialistic in anyway. Its okay folks to buy your children clothing and shoes. IMO

Ps, heres a news flash: Its not only okay to provide food shelter and clothing for our children, its our responsibility... MOO
It is ok to provide those things for your children, but here is a headline you may have missed, CASEY is Caylee's mother and it was not Casey providing ANY of those things...that was ALL Cindy. She even admits she GAVE Casey money all the time...Now I have at least one full grown child, with a child, and I do not "give them money all the time". If they get in hard spot I am happy to help out, but THEY provide for the care of their own child and for themselves...isn't THAT the way it is supposed to be? Parents are there to hold you up when you falter, not to be the entire foundation of your livelihood and that of your children.
AND I might add, there was definitely excessive spoiling where Caylee was concerned. My God she had more than five "normal" middle class children would even dream of having. There is providing and then there is spoiling, and according to scientific research? Spoiling leads to children who grow into criminals, and engage in criminal activities...I give as my example: Casey Anthony.:blushing:
 
I am going to offer another perspective FWIW. Feel free to leave it at the door. I personally, don't consider anything about the A family to be normal. HOWEVER, normal varies based upon ones perspective.

I consider my own family normal.....yet when I compare it to other families it clearly differs.

Normal for some, means what is familiar and comfortable. Normal for others, means what is compatible with preconceived ideas or impressions.

As an outsider......I consider the A family anything but normal. However, that is based upon my own perspective. When you are raised in an environment where "circular rhetoric, avoidance issues, and narcissism" is prevalent, that is your normal. When you are raised in an environment that stresses "honesty, accountability, and empathy" then things appear much differently.
 
NTS, "normal family" is defined by what our own sense of "normal" is. I have to say, if this family feels "normal" to you, it may not reflect what others feel is "normal" to them. Some things just can't be denied

1) Normal parents don't "lose" their children for 31 days without asking for help (IMO most would ask for help within 31 minutes or less!)
2) Unconditional love means "I love you always but I don't condone your negative behaviors".
3) A good parent doesn't have to shower their children with gifts, and some of the best ones were poverty stricken but never let their kids know it!
4) Normal families try to raise their children to become productive members of society, and teach consequences for their behaviors at home - so they don't have to learn it in jail.

Ok, well at least that is my sense of "normal", and I cannot generalize to the masses but I respectfully disagree with you on the A family being "normal".
 
I think Cindy let's us know clearly that the roles were not right here. She says
MY Caylee is missing...

Her Caylee...

That says it all in a nutshell.

ITA! It seems through many of their jailhouse phone convos Casey lets her attitude and anger regarding such spill out! I will find it most interesting to see how on earth CA will explain the myspace page and other statements away...
 
CA knew precisely when she last saw Caylee, IMO.
  • She's a nurse. Nurses are trained to note dates and times. It's been true of every nurse I've ever known, and I've known quite a few.
  • Even in her position as an administrator, she had to be conscious of dates.
  • She hadn't seen Caylee in a month when she made that statement. It's not as though she was asked to recall a date on the spur of the moment. We know from her MS post that by July 3rd, she was quite concerned. I'm sure she had reviewed all of the events over and over in her mind a million times and knew the day, date, hour and minute when she last saw Caylee.
The date discrepancy has been discussed since the beginning. Some of us came to the conclusion that CA might've lied to prevent her parents from becoming involved. She knew that if she said June 15th, LE would ask her to recall the events of that day, which would mean telling them about the nursing home visit, and she was adamantly opposed to LE talking to her parents. (Remember how she threatened not to cooperate if YM questioned her father?) In the beginning it might've seemed inconsequential to her, a little white lie that would protect her parents. After all, except for that one day she spent with Caylee, the last time she saw her was about a week earlier.

GA and LA might've been telling the truth. GA got with the game later and changed his story to June 16th. I think SP went along to protect CA. She e-mailed her sister about the FD visit. I'm pretty sure she knew the date. That's my take, FWIW. As for the tart mom, I'm not sure why she lied. Was she just confused? She sure had the 31 days down. If anyone has a theory on why she gave the wrong date, please share.

Sorry, Mods, for being OT.

Quote Respect bessie

Everything you wrote makes so much sense to me. Great post. Thank you. I also wonder why Casey gave that date. Maybe we should start a thread? Or is there already a thread? I am sure it has been discussed, I'll keep an eye out for it...

IMHO everyone is right re: one fight, two fights, on going fight...it is all of these. Cindy is controlling and as long as children are small, so are the rifts but when kids reach teen and young adult-things can get messy. To say the least. Cindy says she "gave and gave", she makes her feelings of being betrayed and used open when she posted the myspace message. Cindy never forgets and she never forgives: any fight is just the continuation of the struggle. A battle in the war.

Why has Cindy not acted in the best interests of Caylee, Casey, her family, nor even herself? Because it is not about those things, it is only about being in control.

This is the kind of control game that can only be seen by knowing the details, Cindy gives only to have control. To use it against anyone later, to get the upper hand, again. I.E. Giving TM the "back pills" and then throwing that in his face later.

Cindy's myspace message says: poor me. Look everyone, at all I did-for this ungrateful daughter who betrayed me. And the whole time she is using Caylee for this purpose. IMHO these are immature games, not the dealings of a mature caring matriarch. Control freaks don't care about what they are trying to control, only that they are in control.

Cindy was engaged with Casey in this struggle from the moment she(Casey) was born and they are still engaged. In Mommy Dearest, when Joan beats Christina at swimming(again)she says to her daughter, "I will always win." Not all mothers are mammalian in there instinct to raise offspring. IMHO, some mothers behave as reptiles, seeing their children as enemies. Hatching them and then leaving them to their own devices or lording over them as masters to be obeyed and feared.

Cindy wanted to control Casey and Caylee was one of the things she used to do so-imo. Nothing Cindy has done throughout this whole case has made any sense, she has put her self in situations that could have been avoided easily. But she can't help herself, she has to be in control.

I had held off watching the video where the protesters/media is outside of the Anthony home, and Cindy has her hammer. I knew it would make my blood boil and I do not enjoy being angry at these people, I am just following a case for reasons that are elusive. Anywho: I did see it recently. What I did not know was (and please correct me if I am wrong, please):

Casey was in the house! Caylee had not been found in the woods yet, and that family had Casey out of jail, like she had wanted-and they were just hanging out at home. Huh. Wow. :crazy: In that video, IMHO-we see what Cindy really cares about: being in control. Where's Caylee? Oh, I don't know...but I know I want you off of my property!

Cindy argued with her brother about things their own mother had told him, just to be "right" and in control. Basically, calling her own mother a liar. Cindy was willing to lie bold faced straight to her own mother and father about Casey being pregnant, yet when LE wanted to speak to her parents she plays the "respect my parents" card. Just like Cindy tells some people that Casey is "unfit" and a "sociopath", while becoming enraged at anyone suggesting Casey was anything other than mother of the year.

IMHO, this is generational. SP obviously covers for Cindy and her lies, enables Cindy. Why didn't SP confront Cindy at the wedding, she allowed Cindy to perpetuate the "truth" that Casey was not pregnant, when it was obvious to everyone she was. The July 3rd message makes perfect "sense" to me. That is exactly how someone more concerned with "drama" and having control, than doing what is actually right: would do.

Caylee was "missing" but Cindy wasn't going to budge an inch. In fact, she went right on myspace and left a message she knew/hoped Casey would see and that Casey's friends would/might see. She knew it would push Casey's buttons, but not in a clever mother to get done bringing the baby home way, it was done to make matters worse, to get across "hurt" feelings. The myspace page was written as Cindy's latest move in the chess game that was their relationship to show everyone how Cindy is good and Casey is bad. That message was never going to make Casey bring Caylee home, even if she had been alive.

Cindy created Casey so that she can be the martyr Mother, without actually having to sacrifice anything of herself. There have been many cases where mothers, women use children to receive attention for themselves. Aggg. The worst kind of "love" is the kind where they make it look like they give you everything but beneath it all is control.

It's when you are so selfish you want everyone to think you are not selfish at all. This is what Casey was trying to do, is still trying to do.

:twocents:
 
cindy says twice that she left unexpectedly, she left without warning.

wasnt there a call from the anthony home to caseys cell phone early on the 16th. i always took this to mean that when she woke up the next morning they were gone. that was the reason for the early morning call to casey. the reason there were no shoes at the remains site and why the blanket was there. she snuck out with caylee wrapped in her blanket no shoes.
theres a reason why cindy so ridiculously says i heard them breathing.
cca (covering caseys *advertiser censored**)!
she opened that door and did not find them there when she expected to. thats totally my opinion.

And if she left so unexpectedly, then why did cindy supposedly believe that KC was in Tampa or Jacksonville or wherever doing all these great things cause she's a super awesome event planner.

The parents didn't believe any of it. There were tons of red flags, despite what CA would want you to believe. Her myspace is the ultimate proof of that.

ETA: Leaving unexpectedly would also suggest GA's June 16th last day account as being non-existent.
 
Lol! No need to feel foolish! There has been so much info released that it is hard to keep up with. IIRC, there were some texts back and forth, as well as a few short calls, and some unanswered calls. I was speaking to the content of any contact between the 2. I mean, when CA would text or call KC, even if she just left a voicemail, how did that contact go? Did she say "Hey, baby? How's it going? I sure do miss you and the baby! Why don't ya'll come by the house this Saturday and I'll make your favorite! Chili! Love ya, Mom" Or was it more like "I do not know where you are or what you are doing! If you do not bring Caylee by to see me RIGHT NOW I'm going to pack your stuff in a garbage bag and leave it by the side of the road!" Since it seems that CA is a control freak, I can't imagine that she wasn't a bit forceful when she did have contact with KC. And the longer KC refused to "mind" her, the madder she got.[/B]


Quote Respect chefmom :)
BBM

ITA with your whole post. In fact, my previous rambling post in this thread was trying to say exactly what you said (bold), in such a perfect way. I don't know how I miss posts when I read the threads, but I always do. :loser:

The control. Children of controlling parents. I can only imagine the control Caylee would have been under from both Casey and Cindy. A poster once wrote(and it has never left my mind), that Caylee did not have any friends her own age. She did not have children at her second birthday party: just Casey and Cindy fighting over who had the right to "play mom." :(

:twocents:
 
Also I think KC was jealous that she still wasn't the child, the one receiving ALL the attention ALL the time. She observed how GA and CA doted on Caylee and resented it because she didn't want to grow up herself nor was she required to.

GA and CA gave KC mixed messages - KC take care of Caylee, be a good mother but in the meantime you don't have to grow up because we're still taking care of both you and Caylee. But you'd better do what we tell you to do, when we tell you to do it because, afterall, we're watching Caylee for you whenever you need us to watch her. Except not so much anymore as we're working (or CA at least) and getting older and Caylee won't go to sleep and you keep staying out late. Plus, we no longer believe that you're working so get your arse home and take care of YOUR daughter. Don't take advantage of us being here whenever it's convenient for you and then complain that Caylee comes to us because, afterall, and don't EVER forget this, we provide for all of her needs and yours too. Also, by the way, did we tell you that, basically, you're useless? Caylee, of course, is THE BEST THING that ever came into our lives EVER. We cherish and adore her more than anybody else in the whole Universe - you know that don't you Casey? You can feel that, right Casey? Now, please leave the house but don't take Caylee with you, or do, or don't, :waitasec: we're confused.

Quote Respect Woe :)

Okay. So, I should say that ITA with every post on this page, as we all seem to be saying the same thing: control. (I realize there are other opinions but I kept on seeing so many that were saying what I felt: no offense to any opinions.) If I waited to post because someone else has already said it: I would never post. Someone on WS always puts my own thoughts into better words than I can. :snooty: LOL.


I :blowkiss: WS
 
Cindy is the classic martyr. She works herself to death to support everyone, she does everything to keep her home in perfect order, she cleans up her evil daughters messes time and time again, she cares for Caylee, she puts up with George and his never working and possibly his women too, and THEN...she plays the martyr. The poor opressed and downtrodden ME game, where she lays on the guilt as thick as it can be spread. And everyone PLAYS her game, because, well, heck, she let's them all walk all over her, use her, abuse her and all they have to put up with is a little guilt? What a trade. Cindy did want to take Caylee away from Casey. She calls Caylee HER child even though she most certainly was NOT her child. She was her grandchild. But in her mind, she put up with all that abuse, using and cleaning up of messes, and working herself to death with little to no appreciation, so THAT was her reward to herself. She became, in her own mind, the mother of Caylee. So sad...it is all so sad.:banghead:

I totally agree with the above but then add to the story that CA was also going through menopause and growing tired. The reason I say that is because CA's co-worker mentions that CA had expressed to her something along the lines of working all day and not always wanting to go home and look after a child. It's one thing to watch a baby and a whole other thing looking after a two-three year old. I don't blame CA for feeling that way but it's the mixed messages I don't understand. But I can understand how the mixed messages frustrated KC. KC, used to getting what she wanted, was flat out p.o.'d I bet that her mother wouldn't cooperate by letting her go out and party while CA happily stayed home and watched Caylee.

I've been confused about this myself, if CA wanted custody of Caylee, why she didn't allow KC to go out and do her thing and refrain from nagging her/try to change her into a 'good' mother. Instead CA wanted both; she wanted KC to be a responsible mother (now that you have a child you can't go out and party and be with men) and she wanted custody too. I don't get that other than it's another control tactic. I think the serious problems began when CA began to say 'enough is enough, I can't do everything anymore'. How does that fit into CA wanting custody though? It may have been an empty threat to try to get KC to accept more responsibility. In doing so, Caylee was put in harms way - like overnights at RM's and other situations I'm sure. And, as others' have mentioned, Caylee's voice was getting stronger every day.

I'm curious if CA really went to the counselor and what they discussed along with the truth about custody issues - was CA really out to gain custody of Caylee or is the above speculation and rumor?

Of course, either situation would tick KC off if she found out about them.
Enough to kill Caylee? I can't say, I don't know.
 
On father's day, George left for work at 2:30. Casey was home with Caylee the night before probably holed up in her room mad because she had to be there--it was Saturday night. On Father's Day, Cindy left in the morning with Caylee to go to the nursing home to see her dad. Lee was out of town working. Casey took off and spent the day with Tony.

Casey and Cindy had started the weekend at odds. After the big Fusian event on Friday night, Casey went home with Tony. She got a call from the Anthony house at 3 a.m. By 3:30 a.m. Casey's phone was pinging from the Anthony house. Looks like Cindy made Casey come home.

The Anthony household in June WAS a pressure-cooker. George had started a new job. They didn't have money to pay their bills and Casey was stealing. Casey was on a love high and wanting to get away just as Cindy was being told by her counselor to "lay down the hammer".

Everybody was uptight. Lots of pressure, blame and resentment. On father's day nobody even sat down and shared a meal with George.

Looking back that Sunday would be remembered as the "day of the big fight". Not Father's Day.

JMO


All good points - I agree! I also think the atmosphere you describe, coupled with the panic Cindy felt when she realized Casey wouldn't produce Caylee, explains the June 9 / June 15 discrepancy.

Seems like many disagree with me, but I don't believe the Anthonys conspired to provide LE a false or misleading date as the date they last knew of Caylee's whereabouts. I think it was an honest mistake; perhaps the first and last one in this case, but still an honest one. Since Father's Day is not a set calendar date, it's easy to get the actual date wrong. I can imagine the following quick back-and-forth taking place, either between family members or just in Cindy's head:

> OK - it was Father's Day, right?
> Right.
> What day was that?
> Let's see...beginning of June I think. Second weekend, maybe?
> Sounds right.
> Was that the 9th? Yep - the 9th.
> Caylee was last accounted for on June 9th.

And so it went - until the Anthonys were made aware (via the date stamp on the nursing home video) that Father's Day was actually June 15.

I realize that it would have been beyond simple to check a calendar and verify the actual date of the holiday, but no one did. They didn't need to once they "figured it out"; they moved on to face the rest of the debacle.
 
Agreed Magic-cat. I've done some of that martyring in my life too...you just assume because you are being so good and great to everyone that they will love you and notice what a great job you are doing. If people don't do want you want you try to guilt them. (I was better at the working part that the guilting part).
Many people here have written about the unhealthy enmeshing of roles in the Anthony house..and how Caylee replaced KC as princess. But I wonder if CA & GA treated KC like a princess......really? If KC is a psychopath and/or sociopath --she never bonded with her parents (and from the looks of the jail house visits that seems accurate). So perhaps KC was treated more like the frog than the princess.

Likely the reason the bonding (between KC & CA) did not take place is because CA has deep problems of her own. Much much deeper than we can guess! I am glad so many people here recognize that CA is so much of the problem..Every one "hates" KC, but many people in this thread acknowledge that KC was deeply harmed by her own Mother. No excuses for KC, but the manipulation and hatred began at the top of the food chain in that household. Judging from the jailhouse tapes KC didn't/doesn't know GA barely at all! Aside from when he called KC "gorgeous"..GA & KC talked to each other like strangers talk to each other. No bond with her parents.

For what its worth, its my opinion. I think this family is some what normal. Ca is a little controlling, but nothing out of the ordinary. The children were well taken care of. I can tell this by the pictures of the bedrooms and all the clothes and shoes. Caylee was loved by all. Lee was just doing his part and helping in anyway he could. Kc is much closer to Ga than anyone can even imagine. They are not estranged. She has always been able to depend on her dad for help. Does not surprise me that she went to him. She can hand the cans over and say heres your *advertiser censored**** gas cans because she knows her father loves her unconditionally. I am not convinced that Kc is a sociopath. Not sure what that is, but am waiting for a professional diagnosis. Not sure about the lies either, since everything she was interogated about was a false date, june 9th. I think we can disect any family and find where there could be flaws and personallity disorders. We have learned so much about this family without actually seeing them interact with Caylee, we have learned to hate them. Normally you would see the good and the bad and the ugly and in the end say, hmmm normal american family, but here we are only seeing the bad and the ugly, so our imagination begins to wander. In my opinion, this is a simple typical american family. MOO


I'm out of order on the thread but I scrolled up and saw both these posts and what strikes me is ONE SERIOUS FLAW that is being overlooked in this family and that is that the parent's did not make KC honor her responsibilities.

When KC didn't graduate, they blamed the school. When KC stole, they didn't make her pay back the money. When KC lied, they didn't make her own up to the truth. When KC was pregnant, they turned their heads the other way as long as they could.

If as parents you realized the above, you'd say, we did this and that but nothing ever seemed to make a difference = Sociopath. But they don't say that, they never admit they let KC get away with everything and anything.

As far as jealousy is concerned, I have another theory but it's a taboo one that we're not allowed to discuss. I'm probably wrong and it could be easily proven that I am wrong but it never has been to my satisfaction. I'm not allowed to know if my dirty mind / way out speculation has any merit. If it does, it would be reason for both jealousy and mental instability, anger, loss of all boundary observations and outright sickness. If my wild imagination speculation was proven true, it would explain everything for me - but since it's apparently not true, I remain dazed and confused regarding why KC killed Caylee.
 
I'm out of order on the thread but I scrolled up and saw both these posts and what strikes me is ONE SERIOUS FLAW that is being overlooked in this family and that is that the parent's did not make KC honor her responsibilities.

When KC didn't graduate, they blamed the school. When KC stole, they didn't make her pay back the money. When KC lied, they didn't make her own up to the truth. When KC was pregnant, they turned their heads the other way as long as they could.

Quote respect and RS&BBM, Woe. What follows is MOO and has been sparked by the very perceptive posts preceding mine:

The failure to make KC honor responsibilities is a major thread tying this all together. It's key to KC's psychology.

Looking only at the sliver of family life that is CA/KCs relationship, I see in CA a person obsessed with appearances, as do many of you. I think CA probably had the best of intentions in raising her own daughter, and perhaps lavished KC with praise and encouragement while never teaching her how to handle criticism or rejection. (Maybe CA never learned herself how to deal with these either, so how could she model it for KC?) Children raised in these environments certainly bask in the praise, and in fact learn to keep people happy and maintain that "perfect" veneer, because the prospect of being shown up as less than perfect is unfamiliar and terrifying--it strikes at the very core of their identity in fact.

And at the same time, they know full well that they are NOT perfect. That they do bad things. That they don't always deserve the praise. But if they admit those things to anyone else, there goes the pedestal of perfection that is the only place they have known. So two things happen:

1. They lose the ability to respect the parental figure(s) who set them up for this crisis; and,
2. They very often self-sabotage by acting out in ways that are psychologically designed to bring the crisis to an unavoidable head. And if the parental enablers keep enabling, them the self-sabotaging behavior gets worse. Because it is more than self-sabotage; it's an attempt to bring the whole unspoken mess to light, in a very dysfunctional way. Because they don't know how to address the dysfunction in a direct or personal way, because they have never had a direct or personal relationship with the enablers, because they know that their enablers don't want to see the "messy" side of them.

Hope that makes sense. I think many of you would be interested to read Marion Woodman's writings, particularly Addiction to Perfection, Inner City Books 1982. In fact, I wish CA and KC and maybe even SP had read it too.
 
I haven't read many of the posts in this thread but I would like to comment on the thread topic. To me this message makes absolutely perfect sense and I personally think this message gives us great incite into the A's family dynamic. Specifically between Cindy, Casey, and Caylee. I also believe that this statement was probably one of Cindy's more truthful statements of the events that where transpiring before the whole circus atmosphere began. To me this statement along with SP's testimony gives us a very clear view of Casey's motives for this crime.
 
I've been reading through this thread on jealousy and the myspace Cindy posting and want to preface my comments by saying I have no love at all for Cindy. She's done some terrible things and has truly impeded this investigation.

However, I don't think she was in anyway prepared to raise Caylee to adulthood. Here's what I think.

It is very easy to love a baby. And it's an easy task to love a beautiful small child which Caylee absolutely was. Even with temper tantrums, toilet training and all that comes with a baby who is growing - they are so wonderful. You can pick them up, they are easy to snuggle on your knee, you can dress them up in sweet little outfits, and they are a joy to be around as they try out all the new things in the world. Clearly Cindy and George loved Caylee at this stage and she is memorialized in many photos and videos. And I am sure Caylee was admired by everyone wherever they took her.

By four or five, a child starts exercising their actual personalities, and really testing boundaries. And by puberty and teenage years, they can make you lose your temper and truly break your heart. So many parents adore their babies, but you can almost chart their inability to manage an older one by the family pictures. Once a child is out of babyhood the real parenting begins. Patience, time, a sense of humor and a lot of prayer.

Cindy raised two kids and I don't believe she was truly ready through her 50's and 60's (70's?) to raise another one. To me she made the classic parent mistake - if I make it easier, then will you do what you should be doing? Parents say, I'll give you money, I'll let you live at home, and on and on - just wanting them to live up to their responsibilities. And of course Cindy picked up the slack of caring for Caylee. But, Cindy had already been through hell with Casey as a young adult and as much as she loved Caylee, didn't want to do it all over again. I don't even think she wanted to stay with George either. Because Cindy was her primary caregiver, Caylee responded to Cindy with love more than Casey. And yes, I think it was Casey who was jealous, and taunted her mother with that instead of picking up her own responsibilities with Caylee.

But then Caylee disappeared and Cindy was heartbroken. The world started criticizing her and Casey and honestly I think she lost her mind - and did her version of a mother she-lion fighting back, protecting her family. I also think she "knew-knew" in her heart Caylee was dead and couldn't bear to think it or hear it. Do I condone her behavior? Not one bit. Do I think she is evil? No, but I do think she was crazy and still may be.

All of course, IMO.
 
Quote respect and RS&BBM, Woe. What follows is MOO and has been sparked by the very perceptive posts preceding mine:

The failure to make KC honor responsibilities is a major thread tying this all together. It's key to KC's psychology.

Looking only at the sliver of family life that is CA/KCs relationship, I see in CA a person obsessed with appearances, as do many of you. I think CA probably had the best of intentions in raising her own daughter, and perhaps lavished KC with praise and encouragement while never teaching her how to handle criticism or rejection. (Maybe CA never learned herself how to deal with these either, so how could she model it for KC?) Children raised in these environments certainly bask in the praise, and in fact learn to keep people happy and maintain that "perfect" veneer, because the prospect of being shown up as less than perfect is unfamiliar and terrifying--it strikes at the very core of their identity in fact.

And at the same time, they know full well that they are NOT perfect. That they do bad things. That they don't always deserve the praise. But if they admit those things to anyone else, there goes the pedestal of perfection that is the only place they have known. So two things happen:

1. They lose the ability to respect the parental figure(s) who set them up for this crisis; and,
2. They very often self-sabotage by acting out in ways that are psychologically designed to bring the crisis to an unavoidable head. And if the parental enablers keep enabling, them the self-sabotaging behavior gets worse. Because it is more than self-sabotage; it's an attempt to bring the whole unspoken mess to light, in a very dysfunctional way. Because they don't know how to address the dysfunction in a direct or personal way, because they have never had a direct or personal relationship with the enablers, because they know that their enablers don't want to see the "messy" side of them.

Hope that makes sense. I think many of you would be interested to read Marion Woodman's writings, particularly Addiction to Perfection, Inner City Books 1982. In fact, I wish CA and KC and maybe even SP had read it too.

Great post.

Another good read
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642
 
I'm glad we've revisited the CA MySpace issue. It reminded me of how simple I thought this case was early on. Marspiter - your post refreshed my mind that I too saw this MySpace page exactly as you did. It is amazing how quickly details of importance and details of minutia cloud the overall picture. Rumor and inuendo become one with actual fact and theory....this case is so multi faceted that CA's MySpace page had become lost to me....I am going to go back to many earlier threads and interviews...I'm sure that the SA is going to do this too in presenting their case. Back to the basics, and CA's MySpace posting is basic. I am not going to read into it, I am going to take it for what I think it means - just as a juror would do. Thanks to everyone who posted today, the posts were so insightful.
 
My interpretation of Cindy's July 3rd myspace message is that Cindy was trying to guilt Casey into doing what Cindy wanted her to do. Cindy basically says, "Look at all I've done for you despite my overlooking your 'mistake', look how awful you've treated me, see how I am suffering and missing Caylee." The e-mail, like Cindy's initial 911 call on July 15, is Cindy trying to get Casey to give in and comply with Cindy's wishes.

But, despite Cindy's manipulative motivations, I think Cindy was spot-on about jealousy being the reason Caylee was gone.

I believe Casey was jealous of Caylee for taking her place as the family "princess". I believe Casey resented both Caylee and Cindy because Caylee loved Cindy more than her. Yes, Casey was jealous of and resented Caylee. Casey couldn't force herself to let Caylee take center stage by even once mentioning Caylee's name when she was trying to play the role of the distraught mother of a kidnapping victim. Caylee had replaced her. Caylee tied Casey down. Caylee tattled. Caylee whined and had needs. Casey had to be away from Tony because of Caylee. Caylee interupted Casey when she texted and talked on the phone. Shirley made chili for Caylee. Shirley had just told Casey she wasn't welcome at her house. Cindy took videos of Caylee not Casey. Cindy criticized the way Casey didn't take care of Caylee and she probably told Casey that if she didn't shape up she'd go for custody...and Casey could live elsewhere...the ultimate rejection and choosing of Caylee over her.

Taping over Caylee's face while leaving her eyes exposed, so Caylee could see, says everything about where Casey's head was at when she did the deed.

imo
 
My interpretation of Cindy's July 3rd myspace message is that Cindy was trying to guilt Casey into doing what Cindy wanted her to do. Cindy basically says, "Look at all I've done for you despite my overlooking your 'mistake', look how awful you've treated me, see how I am suffering and missing Caylee." The e-mail, like Cindy's initial 911 call on July 15, is Cindy trying to get Casey to give in and comply with Cindy's wishes.

But, despite Cindy's manipulative motivations, I think Cindy was spot-on about jealousy being the reason Caylee was gone.

I believe Casey was jealous of Caylee for taking her place as the family "princess". I believe Casey resented both Caylee and Cindy because Caylee loved Cindy more than her. Yes, Casey was jealous of and resented Caylee. Casey couldn't force herself to let Caylee take center stage by even once mentioning Caylee's name when she was trying to play the role of the distraught mother of a kidnapping victim. Caylee had replaced her. Caylee tied Casey down. Caylee tattled. Caylee whined and had needs. Casey had to be away from Tony because of Caylee. Caylee interupted Casey when she texted and talked on the phone. Shirley made chili for Caylee. Shirley had just told Casey she wasn't welcome at her house. Cindy took videos of Caylee not Casey. Cindy criticized the way Casey didn't take care of Caylee and she probably told Casey that if she didn't shape up she'd go for custody...and Casey could live elsewhere...the ultimate rejection and choosing of Caylee over her.

Taping over Caylee's face while leaving her eyes exposed, so Caylee could see, says everything about where Casey's head was at when she did the deed.

imo

Thank you Jolynna for saying all the things I didn't say and saying them better than I could have.:blowkiss:
 
Quote respect and RS&BBM, Woe. What follows is MOO and has been sparked by the very perceptive posts preceding mine:

The failure to make KC honor responsibilities is a major thread tying this all together. It's key to KC's psychology.

Looking only at the sliver of family life that is CA/KCs relationship, I see in CA a person obsessed with appearances, as do many of you. I think CA probably had the best of intentions in raising her own daughter, and perhaps lavished KC with praise and encouragement while never teaching her how to handle criticism or rejection. (Maybe CA never learned herself how to deal with these either, so how could she model it for KC?) Children raised in these environments certainly bask in the praise, and in fact learn to keep people happy and maintain that "perfect" veneer, because the prospect of being shown up as less than perfect is unfamiliar and terrifying--it strikes at the very core of their identity in fact.

And at the same time, they know full well that they are NOT perfect. That they do bad things. That they don't always deserve the praise. But if they admit those things to anyone else, there goes the pedestal of perfection that is the only place they have known. So two things happen:

1. They lose the ability to respect the parental figure(s) who set them up for this crisis; and,
2. They very often self-sabotage by acting out in ways that are psychologically designed to bring the crisis to an unavoidable head. And if the parental enablers keep enabling, them the self-sabotaging behavior gets worse. Because it is more than self-sabotage; it's an attempt to bring the whole unspoken mess to light, in a very dysfunctional way. Because they don't know how to address the dysfunction in a direct or personal way, because they have never had a direct or personal relationship with the enablers, because they know that their enablers don't want to see the "messy" side of them.

Hope that makes sense. I think many of you would be interested to read Marion Woodman's writings, particularly Addiction to Perfection, Inner City Books 1982. In fact, I wish CA and KC and maybe even SP had read it too.


Thank you for the insightful post....I agree with you and thensome-
Should we teach our children that, since doing the right thing is often difficult, why bother doing the right thing? Why bother owning our mistakes, why bother rectifying them? Why bother taking personal responsibility, when there is always an enabler around the corner?
Look where this got KC.
CA should have never shared her marital problems with her children, either. This tells me that she used her kids as a sounding board, not very fair or mature of CA.
CA has a knack for using inappropriate outlets...
The things that CA wrote in this MySpace had all been said to KC before. I believe the reason CA posted this online was to embarass KC, to shock her, that her mother spewed this online. It actually makes CA look like a bit of a spiteful #$%@^, that she resorted to this because she had no control over KC.
If CA had any indication that her granddaughter was in harm's way, she had an obligation to call the police. If she felt KC was testing her and everything was okay, she should have bit her tongue (fingers) and kept the public posts to herself, or maybe gone back to the shrink to get through the empty nest feelings.
 
I think that seeing Cindy's explanation behind the July 3rd myspace blog will be helpful in this discussion. This is from Cindy's deposition with the SA.

SA: She came into my life unexpededly, just as she has left me.

CA: You know, Caylee came in. She wasn't planned. And again, Lee and Casey and I are writers.

SA: Okay, so when you say she came into your life unexpectedly, you're referring to the fact that Casey's pregnancy was unplanned?

CA: Correct

SA: And when you say: Just as she has left me; you're not having contact with Caylee for an extended period of time.

CA: Right

SA: This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Okay, you're referring to Caylee giving you those things. Now she is gone and I don't know why. Why did you write that?

CA: Because I wasn't sure if at that time if Casey was just deliberately keeping her from me, or whatever, and I just wanted Casey to explain why she had lied to me where she was at.

SA: On July 3rd, you believed that Casey was deliberately keeping Caylee from you?

CA: Well, I-- if she was in town during that time, possibly in town, then she had to be deliberately keeping her from me.

SA: Why would you believe that?

CA: I don't know? That's why I said: I don't know why.

SA: All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Okay, you use the word guilty. Did--was there a suggestion that somebody felt--that you felt somebody was thinking you were guilty of something else?

CA: No

SA: Why did you choose those words?

CA: I don't know. I seriously don't know. I mean, it's just an unconditional thing a mom does. I mean, there's-- all you do is just do what you do so

SA: Had Casey accused you of something? Suggesting that youy had some culpability or guilt?

CA: No. No.

SA: Jealousy has taken her away.

CA: You know, you start thinking of things and I didn't know if Casey was jealous of the fact that I was off that week and I was going to spend time with her. Because the week in June when I had taken off, over my birthday, Caylee and I had spent the entire time together that week. I was you know, pretty much her and I bonding you know, having, you know, fun.

SA: Why would that make Casey jealous?

Because in my mind it was because she was working and not being able to spend time with her. So that's my perspective. And this is what she said, she wanted to have time to re-bond with Caylee during that week that she was not going to be working and she'd actually have those days to spend with her. But I was kind of jealous of Casey, too, because I figured the three of us could do something together. We usually did

SA: Jealousy from the one person that should be thankful for all of the love and support given to her. Who are you referring to?

CA: Casey. Yeah, why can't I spend time with you? I would have gone to Jacksonville. I would have gone whereever. I, you know, If I would have been off when she would have been in Tampa. I would have gone there. But I had to work. So this week I was off and I felt like I didn't have my girls.

SA: A mother's love is deep. However there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. Okay, who was that you were referring to as having been betrayed?

CA: I felt that Casey had betrayed me by not confiding in me where she was and why she had to tell me she was at Universal that day. Again, that was the day I was upset, that I drove there and she wasn't there and I found out later that she was supposed to be in Jacksonville.

SA: You're using an emotionally charged word like betrayal for what occured on July 3rd?

CA: Well, I, she lied to me. That's a betrayal. It's a form of betrayal. I don't like people lying to me.

SA: Me either. So you said: There are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most.

CA: Casey and I were best friends and we talked about everything. And I felt like she wasn't confiding in me. So I trusted Casey probably more than anybody on this earth at that time and still do.

SA: A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant. A mother says without hesitation, it will be okay and it was. But then the lies and betrayal began.

CA: Well, we spoke yesterday about it last year-- prior to Caylee's disappearance that Casey was starting to tell more half-truths... or partial lies. Part of it was true, but part of it was false. And then it was when she started to take money. So that is what that was referring to.

SA:First it seemed harmless.

CA: Correct. I mean, a white-- you know, a half-truth, you what teenager-- young adult, doesn't do half-truths.

SA: Ah, love is blind.

CA: Yes. You know, that's pretty much-- love is blind in my marriage and with Casey at that point. That's what I was referring.

SA: A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change.

CA: Casey a chance to -- like, to make up for when she took money, and, you know, giving her the opportunity to make good. I mean, it's-- it's difficult to be a young adult. And I know, you can make mistakes. And parents should give their children opportunity-- You never want to give up on your children. At least I would never give up on my children.

SA: This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change but instead, more lies and betrayal. So that's referring to-

CA: The last few days.

SA: The last few days, not the past year?

CA: Pretty much pinpointing it down to the event of that day. I mean, that's what-- you know, over the last year, but, you know, to this point.

SA: What does a mother get for giving her daughter all these chances? A broken heart.

CA: I mean, I felt like Casey was my best friend. My confidante. And I found out she had been lying to me about where she was at and I didn't understand it because that wasn't Casey. We talked about everything.

SA: A daughter who stole money, lot's of money. Leaves without warning. Leave when?

CA: That week, without warning. I mean, she had told me in advance the other days, but she didn't tell me that day or I wouldn't have driven to Universal. So, to me, it was like leaving out of town that day without giving me an oppotunity to see her, to see Caylee. That's what I was referring to. That day.

SA: And does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills etc...

CA: We discussed that. I figure I was 40 percent taking care of her. And I did say I paid some of her medical bills. And I did provide a place for her to live and I bought groceries most of the time--

SA: Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. Where did you hear this from?

CA: I remember one time she had said something to Annie, her friend, Annie Downing. Like around Caylee's Birthday, her second birthday. Cindy goes into a lot more but it is just soooo long, that I didn't want to write it all. Basically saying about a time where she slipped and called herself Caylee's mom... Casey over heard it... yada yada yada.

SA: No money, no future.

CA: Well, I know she didn't have a lot saved up. I know she didn't have a bank account. So, that's what I mean't by no money.

SA: No future.

CA: Well, you know, she was working at Universal. I wanted her to go into photography and that's what she wanted to do.

SA: The you wrote: Where did she go? Are you referring to Caylee?

CA: To Casey.

SA: Where did she, Casey go?

CA: Yes.

SA: Who is now watching out for the little angel Caylee?

CA: Caylee. Right.

SA: Why were you concerned about that?

CA: It wasn't me. It wasn't me tucking her in making sure that, you know, everything is okay. But, I didn't need to be there. I mean, there's, you know, I mean Casey was a great mom. But I just felt like one of my children was taken from me.

EDIT: Just so you know... I took out all the Uh-huh's. The Okay's and other things like that.
 

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