2008.07.23 Amy H. Interview

[faefrost]

I like the way you expanded thoughts on the justification of CA's character flaws vs monstrous acts.

But then you have gone a little sideways on me. I thought I was pretty clear to say "I" have not seen enough of the family dynamics to be able to come to conclusion "for myself" about who was on control and who was being controlled in that family. Yes, I agree, Shirley was definitely victimized and Rick has commented about it, and yes, they are part of the family dynamics and whether they like it or not they come with their own agenda. I am not questioning the facts in the bank statements or that ICA was stealing her mother blind. What I question is the blanket assumption that CA has enabled ICA her whole life and is responsible for who ICA is today.

I was simply saying I was not comfortable with that blanket assumption with out more information from an independent source or sources. Yes, the bank statements are clear evidence of the theft, but are they clear evidence of enabling? "I" would like more information. That's just me and the way I process.

I am pretty sure that both Grandma Shirley and Uncle Rick came forward and volunteered information to LE about the long term relationship between CA and KC, and the enabling behaviors. I remember we were shocked to find Grandma's statements in one of the more recent document dumps. I wish I could find the threads that had those interviews in it? (and am I remembering it right about Uncle Rick, was it an LE interview or was it some sort of public letter or posting very early on in the case pleading with CA to not enable KC and to get her to tell the truth about Caylee? I really wish I could find this stuff, but it is way too late at night for my mind to function). I do remember that some of the big examples about CA's enabling behavior were centered not just on the multiple thefts from the Grandparents, but on KC's pregnancy and the denials there and on KC not graduating High School.

But yes a huge amount of the information we do know or assume we know about KC and CA is stuff coming from KC to her various friends and acquaintances. and ALL of that is suspect. KC used an assortment of stories and lies about the evils of her family to keep her friends compartmentalized so different groups never caught up to her lies about everything else.

 

[OneLostGrl]

The thing is the bank statements aren't evidence unless CA admits ICA was actually stealing from her or taking money from CA without her permission. Unless CA files a complaint with the OCSD, it isn't against the law. That was my point. We criticize CA's parenting skills and it looks like for good reason, but we haven't had a good look at the full picture to know if our reasoning is correct or just a very good guess without adequate information.

I am not condoning CA's handling of ICA, what I am saying is I don't know what ICA's behavior was to CA on a day to day basis and who was controlling who - is all.

I've spent a lot of time studying family dynamics and wow, the behaviors are wide and varied. I just think I haven't got enough information to make a judgement I am sure of. Oh and I just want to add, that doesn't mean I am criticizing you for your conclusions - not at all. It's all about me here! LOL.

I feel we have been given plenty of information to go on to come to the conclusions I have come to about the dynamics in that family. Cindy's own mother said Cindy's therapist advised her to quit her behaviors toward Casey but Cindy was unwilling and even stopped therapy. She confirms several things about the Casey, Cindy dynamic and I have no reason to believe Cindy's mother would be lying about such things.. I choose to believe the woman. do I believe George, Lee, even Cindy's brother? ehh, not so much. But I do trust Cindy's mom.

I don't feel like you are criticizing me for my conclusions, I'm ok with people disagreeing with me.. I can debate issues without having my feelings hurt or taking it personally. I get that we don't see things on this issue the same way and I know I'm not gonna change your mind, I'm not trying to. Just like you won't change mine and I have no doubt your not trying to.. but we are all here at WS to speak our minds, to share our opinions and there is nothing wrong with discussing opposing views, with 2 different mindsets tossing ideas back and forth.

 

[OneLostGrl]

once again, another wonderful post by Faefrost!

BBM ITA I have some experience with a child who shares this behavior. He is 13 at the moment and we are in the middle of deciding what we should do as he is pushing the boundaries of our family unit. We are hoping to enroll him in a psychiatric youth group home. In his own way, he himself even thinks that his OWN behavior is out of his control. He feels that such and such happened and therefor he HAS to behave a certain way. It's hard to explain, but it's as though he feels that EVERYTHING that happens to him is because someone ELSE made him MAKE that choice. He can not and will not accept personal responsibility for his own actions and behaviors. It's ALWAYS someone elses fault. And what fantastic BS stories he will weave to make you believe what he wants you to believe.

You could said, The sky is blue and he will argue vehemently that NO it's NOT blue, it's green and it's only cause your eyes are brown and you need glasses that you THINK the sky is blue. The logic and reasoning just go out the window, all so that he wont be WRONG, or in trouble, or at fault or held responsible. he will just do and say anything to NOT take responsibility, i guess that's what i am trying to say.

It's very very scary to interact with this boy on a daily basis, because his world is so bizarre and unrealistic and the things he will say to make you believe his version of the truth is so UNBELIEVABLE.

that being said, I see the same thing in ICA. The "I KNOW the truth, I dont care what you THINK is the truth, regardless of your so called EVIDENCE. Because it's not TRUE. And I will NEVER waver on it" way of thinking. It's got MAJOR PERSONALITY DISORDER written all over it! Totally and completely out of touch with reality. And when I say out of touch with reality, i mean, they cant SEE that no one believes them, that EVERYTHING they are saying sounds so absurd, that ALL EVIDENCE DISPROVES what they are saying. They can't see the people around them, stunned and confused. They just carry on spewing lies, making up excuses and trying to make up and pass off this Reality that THEY believe, not realizing that NO ONE else Believe them. And if ICA is ANYTHING like my 13 y/o step son, then the truth will never be utter by ICA.

See the thing is though, sometimes being enabled can cause those things- it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a personality disorder. Being raised by a person with a personality disorder can cause a person to have the same traits, the same coping mechanisms as the disordered person. It's learned behavior.. not much different then chewing with your mouth closed or when putting the toilet seat down becomes habit for a boy.. it just is. because it's all you know. You can, however unlearn it. Like if you grew up in a home where nobody said "God bless you" when you sneezed chances are you'd probably not say "God bless you" to people when they sneeze. But if you started going to a friends house and they said it all the time and you found you liked it better, you could start saying it and it could eventually become second nature.

For a very long time I was much like the child you are describing. In my mothers eyes I could do no wrong (except for in those very private passive aggressive, manipulative, tricky, disordered game playing ways) . I called my high school principle an a$$hole- my mom went in and freaked on him, I didn't even have to say I was sorry to the man and I was back in school the next day with no punishment from anyone, home or school. I threw a desk at a teacher, got up and left the building.. same thing, no punishment. The first time I got arrested (at 15 years old!! I mean, think about it, what would a normal parent do if their 15 year old got arrested?!) my mother showed up and screamed at the cops.. not at me for committing a crime but at the cops! If I didn't want to go to school I'd tell her to call and tell them I was sick and she'd do it.. knowing I wasn't sick. She always blamed my friends rather then me for anything that went wrong. I never had to make my own bed or do my own laundry or even boil my own water. I lived my life knowing I could do anything I wanted to do and nobody would do anything about it.

I could bring home a dead body, throw it in my my mothers lap and say I just killed this person and she would have an entirely different story made up that keeps my hands clean and fits in snug with her coping ability, in no time at all. and much like Cindy has done (imo it's what Cindy has done), she'd convince herself the story she made up is true because if it's not, then what?

BTW- I hope your stepson gets the help he needs and responds to treatment! :hug:

 

[doogiesgirl]

BBM... to borrow a quote from Cindy's mom, Shirley .. (and switch the two key players in it) ... maybe Cindy hated Casey more than she loved Caylee...

wild

Now there is some food for thought!

We've all always had it the other way around but....you may be on to something.

:cow:

 

[doogiesgirl]

Hadn't ICA been telling CA for a month that Caylee was with the Nanny and that was why CA was picking ICA up? To go and get Caylee? Because CA believed if Caylee wasn't with ICA she was with Somebody.

That's it exactly. By this time CA had had it with KC buying time. Even if she didn't know for sure about the nanny, she knew what KC was telling her wasn't on the up and up. Whoever Caylee was with, CA wanted to get her from that person now. (And I do believe CA thought Caylee was alive and with someone other than KC) So she takes matters into her own hands.....she goes to the BF to find KC. And it works....she finds her. If there was no Caylee, CA would not have been out looking for KC. The whole point was to find Caylee. So why when she finds her did she not just come out with it?? I have been through teenagers, I know every one is different but I'm sorry, I think most parents react generally the same way when pushed so far. It's normal to raise your voice at such times when one's patience has reached it's limit. It may not be productive, but it's normal IMO.

Have we ever gotten a clear picture of what exactly did transpire when these two met up? Did KC go out of the apt for a period of time? Was it just KC & CA outside talking where no one else could hear them? I do remember that AH says that she got trapped into a corner with them arguing. But I also remember her saying that she eventually got free and left. So if KC & CA were outside speaking, and we only have their testimony on what was said = we will never know what was said IMO. Maybe this is what's missing. Maybe CA did react & was firing the where is Caylee question at KC, but we don't have anyone other than them that witnessed it. And as has been pointed out, CA in wanting so badly to appear to be the perfect mother to LE & FBI gives a completely unrealistic account of her reaction. I think that makes the most sense. Right???

MOO

 

[doogiesgirl]

See the thing is though, sometimes being enabled can cause those things- it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a personality disorder. Being raised by a person with a personality disorder can cause a person to have the same traits, the same coping mechanisms as the disordered person. It's learned behavior.. not much different then chewing with your mouth closed or when putting the toilet seat down becomes habit for a boy.. it just is. because it's all you know. You can, however unlearn it. Like if you grew up in a home where nobody said "God bless you" when you sneezed chances are you'd probably not say "God bless you" to people when they sneeze. But if you started going to a friends house and they said it all the time and you found you liked it better, you could start saying it and it could eventually become second nature.

For a very long time I was much like the child you are describing. In my mothers eyes I could do no wrong (except for in those very private passive aggressive, manipulative, tricky, disordered game playing ways) . I called my high school principle an a$$hole- my mom went in and freaked on him, I didn't even have to say I was sorry to the man and I was back in school the next day with no punishment from anyone, home or school. I threw a desk at a teacher, got up and left the building.. same thing, no punishment. The first time I got arrested (at 15 years old!! I mean, think about it, what would a normal parent do if their 15 year old got arrested?!) my mother showed up and screamed at the cops.. not at me for committing a crime but at the cops! If I didn't want to go to school I'd tell her to call and tell them I was sick and she'd do it.. knowing I wasn't sick. She always blamed my friends rather then me for anything that went wrong. I never had to make my own bed or do my own laundry or even boil my own water. I lived my life knowing I could do anything I wanted to do and nobody would do anything about it.

I could bring home a dead body, throw it in my my mothers lap and say I just killed this person and she would have an entirely different story made up that keeps my hands clean and fits in snug with her coping ability, in no time at all. and much like Cindy has done (imo it's what Cindy has done), she'd convince herself the story she made up is true because if it's not, then what?

BTW- I hope your stepson gets the help he needs and responds to treatment! :hug:

Completely OT but I cannot help myself.
OLG..do you think your mother grew up with no one ever sticking up for her? Even when she was right and had done no wrong, do you think possibly her mother or father blamed her for everything??? Or is it just a case of illness on her part? Just curious.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I am pretty sure that both Grandma Shirley and Uncle Rick came forward and volunteered information to LE about the long term relationship between CA and KC, and the enabling behaviors. I remember we were shocked to find Grandma's statements in one of the more recent document dumps. I wish I could find the threads that had those interviews in it? (and am I remembering it right about Uncle Rick, was it an LE interview or was it some sort of public letter or posting very early on in the case pleading with CA to not enable KC and to get her to tell the truth about Caylee? I really wish I could find this stuff, but it is way too late at night for my mind to function). I do remember that some of the big examples about CA's enabling behavior were centered not just on the multiple thefts from the Grandparents, but on KC's pregnancy and the denials there and on KC not graduating High School.

But yes a huge amount of the information we do know or assume we know about KC and CA is stuff coming from KC to her various friends and acquaintances. and ALL of that is suspect. KC used an assortment of stories and lies about the evils of her family to keep her friends compartmentalized so different groups never caught up to her lies about everything else.

Rick's emails to Cindy :-
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4825540/Casey-Anthony-CindyRickShirley-emails

 

[logicalgirl]

That's it exactly. By this time CA had had it with KC buying time. Even if she didn't know for sure about the nanny, she knew what KC was telling her wasn't on the up and up. Whoever Caylee was with, CA wanted to get her from that person now. (And I do believe CA thought Caylee was alive and with someone other than KC) So she takes matters into her own hands.....she goes to the BF to find KC. And it works....she finds her. If there was no Caylee, CA would not have been out looking for KC. The whole point was to find Caylee. So why when she finds her did she not just come out with it?? I have been through teenagers, I know every one is different but I'm sorry, I think most parents react generally the same way when pushed so far. It's normal to raise your voice at such times when one's patience has reached it's limit. It may not be productive, but it's normal IMO.

Have we ever gotten a clear picture of what exactly did transpire when these two met up? Did KC go out of the apt for a period of time? Was it just KC & CA outside talking where no one else could hear them? I do remember that AH says that she got trapped into a corner with them arguing. But I also remember her saying that she eventually got free and left. So if KC & CA were outside speaking, and we only have their testimony on what was said = we will never know what was said IMO. Maybe this is what's missing. Maybe CA did react & was firing the where is Caylee question at KC, but we don't have anyone other than them that witnessed it. And as has been pointed out, CA in wanting so badly to appear to be the perfect mother to LE & FBI gives a completely unrealistic account of her reaction. I think that makes the most sense. Right???

MOO

Yes, I completely agree. And I think CA was so used to ICA dumping Caylee with everyone and anyone available so she would be free to go out and party, she assumed that's what ICA had done again. If Caylee was not home with CA, then to CA that meant someone else was looking after her, but who and was the child safe? I don't think CA could make the leap that because Caylee had been gone for a month from the family home that meant ICA had killed her.

 

[logicalgirl]

I am pretty sure that both Grandma Shirley and Uncle Rick came forward and volunteered information to LE about the long term relationship between CA and KC, and the enabling behaviors. I remember we were shocked to find Grandma's statements in one of the more recent document dumps. I wish I could find the threads that had those interviews in it? (and am I remembering it right about Uncle Rick, was it an LE interview or was it some sort of public letter or posting very early on in the case pleading with CA to not enable KC and to get her to tell the truth about Caylee? I really wish I could find this stuff, but it is way too late at night for my mind to function). I do remember that some of the big examples about CA's enabling behavior were centered not just on the multiple thefts from the Grandparents, but on KC's pregnancy and the denials there and on KC not graduating High School.

But yes a huge amount of the information we do know or assume we know about KC and CA is stuff coming from KC to her various friends and acquaintances. and ALL of that is suspect. KC used an assortment of stories and lies about the evils of her family to keep her friends compartmentalized so different groups never caught up to her lies about everything else.

Yes, I clearly remember reading those emails and saw the agendas between Rick and Cindy and Shirley with great interest, and reading their comments to the LE. This was primarily what had me closely watching the family dynamics in this family in the first place.

What I didn't see was CA sharing any of her difficulties or sharing in her efforts to control ICA, what I saw was someone telling her family to back off and mind their own business. On a personal note, I am quite sure if you met my older sister and read her emails to me where she comments on what I do and how I am doing it, you may have a skewed view of what was going on - especially in the middle and as a result of a horrendous family crisis.

What surprised me particularly was lack of family support, and the rush to "I accuse". I realize I am playing devil's advocate here, but I dislike sweeping judgments at any time. While my comments are often read as some kind of support of Cindy, nothing could be further from the truth. When I do not understand behavior, it is just my nature to continue to question - what is it I am missing here - where are the rest of the pieces. Yes, I can see and agree what is happening, but why?

 

[Aedrys]

Yes, I clearly remember reading those emails and saw the agendas between Rick and Cindy and Shirley with great interest, and reading their comments to the LE. This was primarily what had me closely watching the family dynamics in this family in the first place.

What I didn't see was CA sharing any of her difficulties or sharing in her efforts to control ICA, what I saw was someone telling her family to back off and mind their own business. On a personal note, I am quite sure if you met my older sister and read her emails to me where she comments on what I do and how I am doing it, you may have a skewed view of what was going on - especially in the middle and as a result of a horrendous family crisis.

What surprised me particularly was lack of family support, and the rush to "I accuse". I realize I am playing devil's advocate here, but I dislike sweeping judgments at any time. While my comments are often read as some kind of support of Cindy, nothing could be further from the truth. When I do not understand behavior, it is just my nature to continue to question - what is it I am missing here - where are the rest of the pieces. Yes, I can see and agree what is happening, but why?

She yelled at teachers at Casey's school when Casey got bad grades. She let Casey have a graduation party even though Casey hadn't graduated. She denied Casey's pregnancy at her brother's wedding. She allowed Casey to continue to party and steal thousands of dollars from not only Cindy but Cindy's mother as well. The situation with Amy H was just a misunderstanding - I don't know about you but stealing 400 bucks is not misunderstanding, it is a FELONY. And Casey was convicted of thirteen felonies for stealing.

And look at the current case - it's constantly, from day one, Casey didn't do it from Cindy. Everyone else is out to get Casey. Cindy has torn apart all of Casey's friends and anyone associated with the case that doesn't think Casey is innocent. She even attempted to get someone to disturb the crime scene to remove evidence tying it back to the house (thank GOD Kronk found Caylee first and prevented that). She was and is still willing to do anything to get Casey free and back to her home. I'm sure Casey has her own mental problems that contributed to the way she is - but she also had a mother that made SURE that Casey NEVER suffered one consequence for anything in her entire life. NOT ONE. Casey could do no wrong in Cindy's eyes. Cindy just fixed every problem and made it go away for Casey. Casey was perfect, mother of the year.

I'm sorry, but letting a child get out of every situation without a consequence is not going to produce a law abiding citizen who wouldn't resort to murder when a child became too much of an inconvenience on, in this case, her life. Casey simply thought mom would once again clean up her problems and make them go away. She doesn't understand at all that murder is not okay, and is so much worse than just lying and stealing. To Casey, there are no morals, there are no rights and wrongs, there is just Casey doing what she wants and mommy cleaning up all of the messes and enabling her to be that way. I understand wanting to give Cindy some sympathy, but she completely enabled Casey to be the murdering spiteful bi*** she is today. The only thing Cindy didn't do was murder Caylee. I am not going to let her slide when she helped, in a big way, to create this monster in the first place. A child needs boundaries and rules, and Cindy raised Casey with NONE of those. And it's George's fault too for not stepping up and being a better father. He just let Cindy raise their daughter this way and never once tried to stop it.

There is overwhelming information in this case to tell me what kind of mother Cindy was to Casey, and I don't need to hear from Cindy's mouth, where it just be twisted and lied about to make Cindy look better. Cindy can't tell the truth and certainly can't handle the truth.

 

[Intermezzo]

Yep. But she never seems to quite get there. Because if she did, she would know that HER daughter uses situations that actually happen and changes the name, eg. Amy had the accident and I believe her stepfather bought her a new car or a used car. KC changes it to Zanny.

Reading another site awhile back and someone had posted all the lies that KC had told (some I had not heard and then showed how she used her friends situations and changed them around- she has been doing it for years) and I do believe Cindy knows this.

You know Cindy, maybe Amy is really Amy and Tony is really Tony and Jesse is really Jesse and KC is really the murderer in this scenario.

But as I have said before, Cindy let this happen and if she admits her daughter did this, she has to admit she did not take care of the baby. And that is a tough pill to swallow.

bbm
:clap: It really IS that simple..
IMO Cindy refuses to accept the truth that is staring her in the face.

 

[NoNameLeft]

The thing is the bank statements aren't evidence unless CA admits ICA was actually stealing from her or taking money from CA without her permission. Unless CA files a complaint with the OCSD, it isn't against the law. That was my point. We criticize CA's parenting skills and it looks like for good reason, but we haven't had a good look at the full picture to know if our reasoning is correct or just a very good guess without adequate information.<respectfully snipped>.

Even if Casey would just have borrowed the money, these records would still be relevant. They show how Casey got lots of money from Cindy and then suddenly in March the gravy train comes to a screeching halt. That's when someone Googled for household weapons, neck breaking, shovel and chloroform. So, it really doesn't matter how Casey got that money, what's important is her reaction to no longer getting that money. And it looks like she didn't take it very well

 

[TotallyObsessed]

IIRC, when Cindy was being interviewed by YM ..(you know..when she was putting the pieces of the puzzle together ) she was saying that maybe Amy was really Zanny and the wreck that Amy had was really the accident that Zanny & Co had. Cindy was trying her best to get Yuri to put the *clues* together just the way she wanted them..

Therein is the real problem with CA's denial. She saw KC's lies as "clues" which would eventually lead her to her granddaughter. We all saw those same lies as...well...lies. We saw them as bits and pieces of truth woven in with lies, lies and more lies.

 

[Numbers]

Therein is the real problem with CA's denial. She saw KC's lies as "clues" which would eventually lead her to her granddaughter. We all saw those same lies as...well...lies. We saw them as bits and pieces of truth woven in with lies, lies and more lies.

"I'm in Tampa because Zanny had an accident and totaled her car. She's in the hospital, so her sister flew in to watch Caylee while I dash back to Orlando and pick up her insurance card."

Nope, not seeing this "bits and pieces of truth." At. All.

The girl just flat out LIES.

 

[Intermezzo]

Well there are some direct witness reports regarding at least some of the dynamics going on between Cindy and KC. Uncle Rick and Grandma being the two main ones. Grandma was even one of the victims of theft and Rick pretty clearly laid out Cindy's behavior of denial and enabling regarding KC.

One thing we have to be very very conscious of when looking at the relationship between CA and KC. In the end CA did not murder Caylee. At least up until KC was arrested CA did at least enough of the right things where she is on the correct side of the angels. She confronted KC about the theft from Grandpa. She worried about Caylee. She searched for Caylee. She was the one that called 911 when she found KC and not Caylee. Cindy may be a dysfunctional enabler when it comes to her daughter. She may very well be the most annoying person on the planet. And everything that she has said and done since KC's initial arrest is well past the boundries of crazy. But she is NOT the monster here. She did not kill and duct tape a 2 year old child, drive around with her decomposing body for a week then toss her off the side of the road into a swamp like trash. We need to be very very careful to not allow ourselves to start seeing Cindy's character flaws as a justification or excuse for these truly monstrous acts. That is what KC wants. That is how KC lives her life and manipulates those around her. It's never her fault. There is always some other underlying reason. It's what the true monster wants us to believe. It's what the true monsters shady defense team wants us to believe, and it is the line that they are going to try and sell the jury come sentencing phase.

edit: Oh and regarding the bank statements. Oh yeah are they evidence. They are pieces of the whole and do not have to stand alone as crimes unto themselves or have charges filed by the victim. They show the pattern of behavior more clearly then any spoken words.

well said faefrost...

In regards to the bank statement...Wouldn't Cindy's July 3rd myspace post (evidence that will be presented at Casey's trial) where she states Casey stole money from her, lots of money support the bank statements?

 

[NoNameLeft]

well said faefrost...

In regards to the bank statement...Wouldn't Cindy's July 3rd myspace post (evidence that will be presented at Casey's trial) where she states Casey stole money from her, lots of money support the bank statements?

My guess is yes. They carefully let her explain each line during her deposition. They also have her admitting Casey stole thousands of $ from her in her state deposition, so I don't really she how she could suddenly claim Casey didn't steal the checks or credit cards.

 

[Solace]

bbm
:clap: It really IS that simple..
IMO Cindy refuses to accept the truth that is staring her in the face.

Hi Intermezzo and thanks.

 

[Solace]

Cindy can't tell the truth and certainly can't handle the truth.

Exactly, because if she admits the truth, she has to admit it is her fault that Caylee is dead - even though NO ONE expects their child to murder their own child - enabling the sociopath (and Cindy labeled KC that to Ryan Paisley) and in so doing every day KC thought "I can do anything and just lie about it". No problem.

I can't believe she had a graduation party. Who did she invite - the other graduates?

 

[Solace]

FWIW,

A Candy Rose has all the e-mails between Rick and Cindy and grandmother. and the following site has interviews as well:

http://www.wftv.com/news/23080678/detail.html

BUT THE HINKEY METER IS THE BEST SOURCE IMO.

 

[logicalgirl]

My guess is yes. They carefully let her explain each line during her deposition. They also have her admitting Casey stole thousands of $ from her in her state deposition, so I don't really she how she could suddenly claim Casey didn't steal the checks or credit cards.

How did we get from my initial statements to an assumption that I said ICA did not steal thousands from Cindy? Where did that leap come from?

Have I said that? Clearly I haven't - because she did - there is no question about that. What I said was it wasn't evidence (in a case that CA has asked that ICA be charged with stealing from her!!!) and I am not going to make the assumption that this was all just peachy keen with CA. That is all I said.

I said I am seeing leaps that it was peachy keen with CA that ICA was stealing from her and her family, when I don't know that. If ICA is a sociopath, and this is sociopathic behavior, then who was controlling who here? THAT was my question.