2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[nort]

Its amazing Cheney would have expected to see anything different then what was left of Caylee. His ony defense could be that nobody could prove it was stuck to her skin. Only an educated guess could be made. (very educated on the side of the state... go Dr G). Everyone talks about common sense but after OJ I think jurors use the evidence and arguements to decide cases. Common sense says, yes, OJ was guilty but it did not prevail. We need emotion like we saw in the hearing with Ashton explaining the process of Caylees death in regards to the tape.

 

[whiteangora]

Its amazing Cheney would have expected to see anything different then what was left of Caylee. His ony defense could be that nobody could prove it was stuck to her skin. Only an educated guess could be made. (very educated on the side of the state... go Dr G). Everyone talks about common sense but after OJ I think jurors use the evidence and arguements to decide cases. Common sense says, yes, OJ was guilty but it did not prevail. We need emotion like we saw in the hearing with Ashton explaining the process of Caylees death in regards to the tape.

bbm
That's not entirely true due to the fact that Caylee's mandible (lower jaw) was still in place. If it had not been taped it would have fallen.
Keep in mind that the State has pictures, all Mason has is a wild and untrue theory.

 

[txsvicki]

BBM

I know it isn't all that important, but just wanted to let you know that I'm from Florida and wear black constantly.....

No, I meant it might be unusual for Cindy to have a black wool throw rug. Flokati rugs (what I was talking about) come in solid colors.

 

[LambChop]

If you were in a hurry and needed some "gloves", even in June and you were in the garage where winter items may be stored it is possible you might grab the winter gloves if no rubber gloves were available. Maybe there was also a hat that matched the gloves. One can only hope. jmo

 

[sarah7855]

Fiber Analysis Thread

A gentle nudge to mom2chloe's post #233. She made a brilliant discovery and would be a great place to p/u sleuthing black wool fibers if anyone is feeling adventurous.

Bumping Beach's post re: bumping the fibers thread & mom2chole's must-read black wool post

 

[Aedrys]

Its amazing Cheney would have expected to see anything different then what was left of Caylee. His ony defense could be that nobody could prove it was stuck to her skin. Only an educated guess could be made. (very educated on the side of the state... go Dr G). Everyone talks about common sense but after OJ I think jurors use the evidence and arguements to decide cases. Common sense says, yes, OJ was guilty but it did not prevail. We need emotion like we saw in the hearing with Ashton explaining the process of Caylees death in regards to the tape.

ITA, and that hearing is just a preview. We're going to get that kind of emotion in spades from JA. I can't wait to see that! No juror is going to possibly be able to ignore him for whatever Baez, Mason or any defense lawyer spews about the duct tape.

 

[joypath]

Its amazing Cheney would have expected to see anything different then what was left of Caylee. His ony defense could be that nobody could prove it was stuck to her skin. Only an educated guess could be made. (very educated on the side of the state... go Dr G). Everyone talks about common sense but after OJ I think jurors use the evidence and arguements to decide cases. Common sense says, yes, OJ was guilty but it did not prevail. We need emotion like we saw in the hearing with Ashton explaining the process of Caylees death in regards to the tape.

BBM
AND Please remember that the other HUGE elephant in that courtroom was the disregard of established protocols by LE! (As in traipsing all over the place with vials of EDTA blood from your primary suspect! :banghead:and allowing a delay in logging & securing in evidence:banghead (oh yeah, and the other issue:waitasec:, glove shrinkage, dressing gloves OVER gloves!)

 

[Butterflylady]

ITA, and that hearing is just a preview. We're going to get that kind of emotion in spades from JA. I can't wait to see that! No juror is going to possibly be able to ignore him for whatever Baez, Mason or any defense lawyer spews about the duct tape.

I can't wait to see that too. What a dynamite lawyer he is! He and LDB! I think JA knew it would upset kc describing how sweet Caylee died, but I wonder if he knew it was going to make her grow as angry as she did.

 

[Gma Kat]

Possibly. Just want to say that whenever I propose something it's not that I think I'm right. Any theory is alive as far as I'm concerned. If anything I've ever posted turns out to be true, I'll be surprised but will tell myself, 'trust yourself as you could be right just as much as the next guy'. But I'm not trying to be right.

That said, the post I made about the fringe hair possibly belonging to KC came to me because of a Forensics show I watched not long ago. There had been a car submerged in water for four days and TES (yes, our TM!) came to sonar the body of water and pulled the car out of the lake. After that, the forensic experts painstakingly used tape to comb the interior of the vehicle collecting evidence to see if the Perp had been inside the victim's vehicle. To their amazement, they found a single hair. By microscopic examination, they realized it was a match to arm hairs of the Perp.

So based on the above and the comment in post 518 regarding limb hairs and fringe hairs that reads, "their presence may help to corroborate info obtained during an investigation.", the thought popped into my head that maybe the hair they found on the tape was consistent to belonging to KC. That would prove to strengthen the case that the tape had been placed by her hand.

Adding: You are correct that these types of hairs are not sources of DNA but they can be matched to a person.

I think your theory is very good but I don't know how much evidentiary value the hair would have even if it is ICA's. The defense can argue the ICA's fringe hair was on Caylee because she was her mother and she had physical contact with Caylee. Caylee and ICA shared the same home and would be in contact with one another's hairs by indirect means as well. What do they call that? Cross-transfer or something like that. IIRC in the Jonbenet case they found fibers from PR on the duct tape that covered JBR's mouth. It was explained away as transfered to JBR from prior contact between PR and JBR. What ICA couldn't explain away though would be how her hair was still on Caylee after 31 days because she had just talked to Caylee that day (7/15/08)......so she really locked herself into a timeline with that statement as well.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Mason starts a line of questioning pertaining as to whether an accidental drowning could have been the cause of Caylee’s death.

“Is there any evidence that tells you this child did not drown?” Mason asks.

“…Based on the fact that I have never seen a drowning nor do I see the reason why a drowning would have duct tape on the lower half of the face, I would say that is evidence itself that there’s no indication that this child would drown and there’s no reason why a child that’s drowned is put in a plastic bag and dumped on the side of the road,” Garavaglia explains.

It’s at this point that Mason segues into asking about the skull when it was found and asks some of the most telling questions – questions that allude to a possible defense theory that evidence may have been mishandling.

After confirming that Garavaglia only examined X-rays and photos of the duct tape on the skull and not the actual duct tape itself, he asks her about those photos. “You don’t think there was any staging of that photograph in your autopsy room after Kronk listed the skull with a stick in the left orbital socket?”

Garavaglia says she does not believe there is any evidence in the photos to suggest that.

Mason’s cross–examination comes to an end and his final question conveys the great deal of doubt the defense has about the investigation of Caylee’s remains by law enforcement and this witness.

“Have you looked at the photographs taken at the scene before the remains were moved?” Mason asks.

“Oh, yes,” Garavaglia assures him.

“Did you not notice that the duct tape in [the] two photographs was in substantially different positions?” Mason asks.

“No, I didn’t notice that…I’ve looked at many photographs at the scene. I didn’t notice that it was appreciably different.”

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/casey-anthonys-defense-team-attacks-duct-tape-theory/




"We're not doing well, Casey. None of us," Cindy Anthony said while crying. "Lee has been sick. Dad's blowing up at the media."

Before entering the jail, George Anthony lashed out at a reporter on his way in to visit his daughter.

"Do you have anything to say about a new theory that Caylee (Anthony) may be dead and that it may be an accident?" a reporter asked.

"Shut up," George Anthony screamed as he moved toward the reporter. "Shut up."

"Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning -- that she drowned in the pool. That's the newest story out there," Cindy Anthony said.

"Surprise, surprise," said Casey Anthony, who was then peppered with questions by her mother.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/18489212/detail.html


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc&feature=related[/ame]

at 1:57 mark...Cindy starts the above conversation....Surprise, surprise...JMHO

Since Mason asks Dr. G about the drowning, I believe this is what the defense will try to use as a defense, that Caylee somehow got into the pool and when Casey got to her, it was already too late...she panics, makes the flurry of calls to her parents, which go unanswered...ICA fears her mother will NOT believe this was accidental and comes up with the kidnapping theory...not that this will fly, or that any jurors would comprehend her actions other than to see it for what it is...after the State gives the details, that ICA's life appears to blossom without Caylee....the defense will say she had a psycotic break in reality out of fear of what her parents would do...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

 

[Bee Charmer]

Morning Live!!! I like your theory and I hope the defense goes with it. Because then the Prosecution can prove to the jury just how lenient cynthia and george were with the accused babykiller, her entire life. And that in no way was she afraid of them or their reactions to ANYTHING she did.

imo

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Morning Bee...:seeya:

Morning Live!!! I like your theory and I hope the defense goes with it. Because then the Prosecution can prove to the jury just how lenient cynthia and george were with the accused babykiller, her entire life. And that in no way was she afraid of them or their reactions to ANYTHING she did.

imo

Oh yes, the State would have lots of opportunity to show how unafraid ICA was of her parents, mother especially with all those jailhouse visits. Either way, whatever scenario the defense decides to use, ICA must get on that stand and tell it herself. It's not going to do any good coming from the attorney.

I can see ICA putting on an act that could be considered for an oscar award. She will put on an act of a lifetime, trying to convince 12 of her peers that Caylee died due to her reckless neglect. She was on the computer, thought Caylee was napping....when she got to Caylee she was way too late for she didn't notice her child 'missing' from her bedroom...I can envision her poking her eyes out to get them tears to flow....I doubt a jury would be convinced that Caylee died by drowning when the child's skeletal remains were found with duct tape...the duct tape will be very hard to explain away, is this how a normal person reacts? The jurors would see this as abnormal, when one phone call to EMS could have revived this baby girl...her actions/inactions will not go over well....

Then we have CA asking GA if he put the ladder to the pool...was this a part of the plan? Did ICA give hints of how Caylee truly came to her demise? GA tells RC, it was an accident that snowballed....well, was the donated money also a snowball effect of this alleged accident...I think the Anthony's might also come under fire. Their testimony might trigger another parallel investigation, into their actions...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[MissJames]

ITA, and that hearing is just a preview. We're going to get that kind of emotion in spades from JA. I can't wait to see that! No juror is going to possibly be able to ignore him for whatever Baez, Mason or any defense lawyer spews about the duct tape.

I would love to see that exact speech in both the opening and the closing arguments.The jury can't hear it enough,IMO.And I hope ICA rubs her wrists and crews up her face in anger,just like the first time.

 

[LambChop]

Morning Bee...:seeya:




Oh yes, the State would have lots of opportunity to show how unafraid ICA was of her parents, mother especially with all those jailhouse visits. Either way, whatever scenario the defense decides to use, ICA must get on that stand and tell it herself. It's not going to do any good coming from the attorney.

I can see ICA putting on an act that could be considered for an oscar award. She will put on an act of a lifetime, trying to convince 12 of her peers that Caylee died due to her reckless neglect. She was on the computer, thought Caylee was napping....when she got to Caylee she was way too late for she didn't notice her child 'missing' from her bedroom...I can envision her poking her eyes out to get them tears to flow....I doubt a jury would be convinced that Caylee died by drowning when the child's skeletal remains were found with duct tape...the duct tape will be very hard to explain away, is this how a normal person reacts? The jurors would see this as abnormal, when one phone call to EMS could have revived this baby girl...her actions/inactions will not go over well....

Then we have CA asking GA if he put the ladder to the pool...was this a part of the plan? Did ICA give hints of how Caylee truly came to her demise? GA tells RC, it was an accident that snowballed....well, was the donated money also a snowball effect of this alleged accident...I think the Anthony's might also come under fire. Their testimony might trigger another parallel investigation, into their actions...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

Well, I think if Caylee died from drowning she would not have been found with a diaper included in the remains. A totally saturated diaper would have fallen off her when KC picked her up. The shorts found at the remains site were intact so I don't think they were on her at the time she was placed there. jmo

 

[Tulessa]

Bump, to discuss the tape.

 

[Tulessa]

There are definitely puncture marks, some in pairs, which support the theory that animals could, and did, remove the tape from Caylee's little body.

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/21249759/detail.html

 

[wenwe4]

This will be a 2-part post. The 1st part will explain the process of piecing together the Henkel duct tape segments in the exact sequence that they came off of the roll. The goal is to determine if the sequence will provide insight into their use.

Special thanks to AZLawyer, Muzikman, JWG and Valhall as they’ve entertained my requests for information along the way without much of an explanation why.

The Henkel duct tape discovered on Suburban Drive can be summarized to include the following:

• Q62 attached to the skull
• Q63 attached to the skull
• Q64 attached to the skull
• Q100 apart from the skull, but, in the vicinity of the letters of the “Big Trouble…” t-shirt

One additional piece of interest for this post was recovered from the Hopespring Dr. residence:​

• Q66 covering the vent hold of a gas can

This particular Henkel duct tape product includes a logo and text marking, alternating to the left & right of center along the length of the non-adhesive side of the backing.

Henkel logo pattern courtesy of our own FairNBalanced:

​

Using the Henkel logo marking pattern I determined the sequence that the segments of tape came from the roll... much like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. When placed in the proper order each tape segment MUST align with BOTH the tear position AND the logo marking of the roll. This alignment process can also suggest if tape segments are missing from within a series if suitable matches for each tear are not found.

From the manufacturer’s specs cited earlier in the thread I used a tape width of 1.88”. With this measurement I maintained the aspect ratio of each tape segment’s image and scaled it to its actual size. Fortunately, most of the tape segment images are reasonably close to being flat and straight. FWIW, I checked the lengths of the scaled tape segments against the lengths in the forensics reports. All were reasonably close, with only the scaled Q62 image being slightly longer (9.3”).

Using a flat image of Henkel tape provided by FairNBalanced, and the known 1.88” width, I determined the repeat distance of the logo marking and replicated the text and the relative positions of each of the logo elements. I combined these to create a “virtual duct tape stencil” that I then overlaid on each tape segment. FairNBalanced’s image was remarkably close to the repeat pattern I was able to see in the actual Q-series tape segments.

The “virtual duct tape stencil” also made it easy to see where the logo marking had degraded or was difficult to view due to the reflection on the plastic sample bags in which they were placed. In all tape segments, however, there was at least one, and in some cases multiple, logo & print marking(s) with which the “virtual” stencil could be confirmed and aligned. :thumb:

How logo alignment is done:

​

Assumptions:

• I assumed that the logo on the Henkel tap is right-side up when pulling the tape off the roll in front of you. IF the logo is, in fact, upside down it would simply reverse the sequence of the segments.
  
• I also assumed that the segments of duct tape were torn and applied one-at-a-time instead of all of the pieces being torn from the roll before any of them were applied.

Lining up for matches:
Here’s and example of lining up two tape segment to determine which is the better fit using the logo pattern. Note that end matches can be eliminated easily when the logo appears out of synch with the stencil (left to right) OR out of synch with the lengthwise position of the logo.

​

I repeated this alignment test for all of the tape segments to determine if and how they fit.

After applying all possible combinations, the following best describes the sequence of taping that occurred:

1) Q64 applied first
2) Q100 applied second but NOT over Q64
3) Q63 applied third over Q64 at an angle
4) Q62 applied last over Q63​

Only one end of Q100 among all of all the tape segments was significantly deteriorated enough to make the matching questionable. Fortunately, since there were excellent matches with all of the other tears, and since we also know that Q63 was attached on top of Q64, (the piece that came before Q100) it is reasonable to conclude that Q100 was applied after Q64 and before Q63, but, wasn’t sufficiently caught between them.

Q64 Matches Q100:

​

Q100 Matches Q63:

​

Q63 Matches Q62:

​

I used the same process on the piece of tape from the gas can, Q66, and determined that it was not a fit EITHER BEFORE Q64 or AFTER Q62. This doesn’t mean that Q66 didn’t come from the same roll or batch, only that it wasn’t taken from the roll immediately before Q64 or immediately after Q62. It is worth noting that the gas can tape analysis is not as straight forward as those found with the remains due to one of the images I have being on a curved surface, and the other providing only a partial view of the tape.

Next...if you have the patience for it ... Part 2 will use the sequence of tape pieces and a few other observations about them to suggest how they were applied.

bumping post #377

 

[wenwe4]

Going along with BondJamesBond's theory of Caylee's head tilting to the right, and Caylee possibly sitting in her carseat when the tape was applied, because the tape slants to the right - I can envision KC reaching in and putting the tape over her face, as Caylee sat slumped in her carseat, so KC would not have to look at Caylee's features, especially her eyes, and her mouth.
BJB says that Q64 was applied first - and if contains the heart shaped residue ... then maybe KC placed the first piece of duct tape and the heart sticker on ... then thought about the other 3 pieces of duct tape after that? I think the end of Q64 would have been the nearest to the car door as KC leaned in, and may explain why the heart sticker was placed on that end of the duct tape??

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released
“Tale of the Tape” Part 1 of 2 – "The process"

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released
"Tale of the Tape" Part 2 of 2 - "The observations"

bumping post #682

 

[wenwe4]

AZLawyer's brilliant sleuthing posts :bowdown: tied up in one little neat package for reference purposes.


The first one linked actually contains 2 of her posts, back-to-back. Both are VIP reading.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177768&postcount=487




This one is a heavily edited Cliff Notes version of the previous link.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5180546&postcount=531




Another....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5193575&postcount=615




This next one scared me senseless when I first saw it. It is based on mathematical equations allowing for the curvature of the jaw in re. the tape placement. I'm trusting AZ and her handy online calculator for this one.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5195861&postcount=623




This last link is AZ's rendition of her theory of the tape placement.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646


Great work AZ! :clap:

bumping post #689

 

[wenwe4]

From the State Witness List - (ty MM & TT!!!)

"(21) Christina Ballard, C.A. Pount Human ID Lab - Gainesville, FL - added

Aug 30, 2010- listed as EXPERT - involved with a video superimposition involving a

photo of Caylee in life, a photo of her skull, and a photo of the duct tape found with her

skull - during Dr. Warren’s deposition - [no Defense depo]"

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1eypXuLsh5uatd0yhKQPIBl3_qCYIw5K-bc0q2jEVkHo&hl=en&pli=1#