2010.04.09 Appearance of Suburban Drive

[seagull65]

All the investigators' documents explain where the fallen log/tree was in relation to the remains. I won't rehash all that. I was just talking about the terrain, I can understand why it was hard searching many of the areas, often difficult to walk through.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Sorry Logical Girl and Zsa Zsa, I hadn't read your posts while I was writing my second post. I was only talking about the spot where Caylee's remains were found of course, not the spot where Tim Miller's ATV went into deep water and so on. I'm not discussing issues related to why searches were called off or any of that, that's not the topic of this thread.

I don't have any expertise to challenge Dr. Jawitz's report, I thought I remembered him addressing the water level post hurricane, both at Remains area A and at deeper areas nearby, but I will wait til trial to see how he explains the water levels. His report of the water not being higher than 6 inches at remains area A sounded reasonable to me having seen the ground at the site. Again, I'm not a water expert like he is, so I'll see how the facts are presented at trial.

Umm- it's not off topic to discuss the water levels during the summer 08 on Suburban drive, the thread is title 4/10/2010 appearance of Suburban drive, What I am saying is that all the helpers who were then observed the water level with their own eyes, they are not offering a report which cites the averages. That is very pertinent to this thread.

 

[logicalgirl]

All the investigators' documents explain where the fallen log/tree was in relation to the remains. I won't rehash all that. I was just talking about the terrain, I can understand why it was hard searching many of the areas, often difficult to walk through.

The sad thing about all this seagull65 is that even with all the undergrowth, sloping terrain and standing water, Casey's remains were tiny and scattered, and grown over. I suspect (and I'm sorry to say it like this) once gathered up over what looked like about half an acre, I suspect they would have fit into the average woman's handbag.

I fear some of those searchers were still looking for a somewhat different little Caylee than was actually out there by then. Some posters speak as if Caylee was still a small child "sleeping" on the ground, even after almost six months. So sad.

 

[seagull65]

Where Caylee was found is exactly where Tim Miller is referring to- I watched him on TV the night her remains were found and he was SO glad he did not take his people through there- Caylee's remains were underwater so there is no way they would have seen them and most likely would have trampled them down into the mud or completely destroyed them. He knows the site very well, he studied it and planned it out on a grid before approaching the area. They don't just arrive and walk through, they have it precisely mapped first. He KNEW the coordinates. Can't wait for him to testify..

I'm not sure why this was posted in response to one of my posts. I'm not discussing Tim Miller. We all know the searchers did a great job and how wonderful for them to volunteer their efforts and search so many areas during the time they were there

 

[Harmony 2]

The sad thing about all this seagull65 is that even with all the undergrowth, sloping terrain and standing water, Casey's remains were tiny and scattered, and grown over. I suspect (and I'm sorry to say it like this) once gathered up over what looked like about half an acre, I suspect they would have it into the average woman's handbag.

I fear some of those searchers were still looking for a somewhat different little Caylee than was actually out there by then. Some posters speak as if Caylee was still a small child "sleeping" on the ground, even after almost six months. So sad.

Exactly!!

Moreover, some teeth and miniscule bones were found four and five inches under the muck compounded by overgrowth of vegetation.

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm not sure why this was posted in response to one of my posts. I'm not discussing Tim Miller. We all know the searchers did a great job and how wonderful for them to volunteer their efforts and search so many areas during the time they were there

I think I sorta know why we are getting confused here. Most of the posters think of Tim Miller and TES when the word searchers is used, because they were the only official searchers who documented their search while they were doing it or immediately after.

The precise area where Caylee was recovered was indeed covered with water, with deep mud or silt under that water. Several searchers from TED mentioned stepping off the road in that area and sinking up to their knees needing assistance to actually get out of the muck. Tim Miller declared the whole area unsafe to search in, including Caylee's spot because of both the danger to the ATV's and the danger to Caylee's remains.

Baez asserts some of the TES searchers did search the exact area, Tim Miller says no they did not.

 

[miss plum]

It's good that the trial is scheduled for May next year, because it means the jury can go down to the site and see how it roughly looked when Caylee was dumped there--it will have grown back to more of its original state and the weather conditions will be similar.
I don't live in Orlando but I have done so I understand how very dense and impenetrable and intimidating the undergrowth is, and how much water could have been lying around, and how amazing it is that she was ever found. When TM called off the search I was disappointed but I knew he was doing the right thing. Even if searchers had been at the precise spot and not up the road a bit they could still have conscientiously looked and missed her.

 

[notthatsmart]

So funny. I just drove by yesterday and noted that there is standing water, and we havent really had all that much rain.

Was there standing water in Area A?

 

[Dignity4Victims]

BBM

Just because you can clearly see from the street NOW does not mean that you could clearly see from the street then. Do you not remember that LE removed most of the vegatation in that area?

Here are some pictures from when the body was found. Note the DENSE overgrowth ... http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/18311441/detail.html

Sometimes I wonder if you just come here to ... oh nevermind.

I very much appreciate you pointing out this obvious fact, but uh, anyone who has been following this case should have been aware of the difference between the extremely dense underbrush at the time searchers were looking for Caylee vs. the ability to see the area now, wouldn't you think? :waitasec:

LE, FBI workers, etc. spent days and days on their hands and knees in that mud, NTS, searching for Caylee's tiny bones. They, not her mother, not her grandparents, but they, cared enough to "piece" Caylee back together in whole as best as they could, and they had to clear that entire area to do so since animals had scattered that baby over such a large area.

SHEESH!

 

[seagull65]

I know what you mean, logical girl. During those two weeks if there was six inches of standing water for example, maybe only the top of the skull would have been visible if that, I'm not sure how many inches tall a child's skull is, or how high the rib cage would have been originally before all the bones and clothing wound up flat on the ground. And due to the curtains of vines and the foliage on the ground, presumably even during the dry times a person would have had to walk up into the treeline and look around a bit to have seen anything. I've always been interested in the question of the weeks before the rain, especially very early on, i.e. smell factor and so on. People must walk in their neighborhood and walk their dogs and stuff, and we know people dump yard waste and other trash right there. I wouldn't be surprised if kids go to the school yard to use the playground in the summer months, I don't know, unless it's locked up or something. And the back yards of the two houses there at the end of the street are so close. (Even the Anthonys said they used to walk up to the corner of Hopespring and Suburban during their normal walks, but turning left there at Suburban which makes sense, going around the block. Maybe they only walked when they were taking Caylee for walks though, maybe when she wasn't there they weren't going for their walks.) But anyway, it's just unfortunate that apparently no one noticed the smell in the beginning, (if the remains were there). But even if they did I guess they would most likely have just assumed it was an animal or something.

Another thing that still kind of puzzles me is how her skull got to be in such an upright position sitting on the soil. Anyway, thanks again to Dave for the video

 

[notthatsmart]

BBM

Just because you can clearly see from the street NOW does not mean that you could clearly see from the street then. Do you not remember that LE removed most of the vegatation in that area?

Here are some pictures from when the body was found. Note the DENSE overgrowth ... http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/18311441/detail.html

Sometimes I wonder if you just come here to ... oh nevermind.

Yes I understand this completly, but I was under the impression it was a wood line. I am not aware of Le cutting down trees. So I guess it was an vegitation line, with vines and such. Just wanted to get a clear picture in my head of what was actually there and Dave helped out there and I appreciate it.

I come here to get to the truth for Caylee and the truth for Justice. Nothing else. IMO

 

[seagull65]

I don't think it's amazing that she was ever found. Just the opposite. I'm amazed it took so long. (Since her remains were eventually found right up her own street just off the street.) That has nothing to do with TES though, and their work during the time they were there when many areas were indeed very wet and in standing water and they didn't want to accidentally damage evidence. I'm still not 100% sure her remains were in that locale the entire time, though.

 

[RR0004]

I know what you mean, logical girl. During those two weeks if there was six inches of standing water for example, maybe only the top of the skull would have been visible if that, I'm not sure how many inches tall a child's skull is, or how high the rib cage would have been originally before all the bones and clothing wound up flat on the ground. And due to the curtains of vines and the foliage on the ground, presumably even during the dry times a person would have had to walk up into the treeline and look around a bit to have seen anything. I've always been interested in the question of the weeks before the rain, especially very early on, i.e. smell factor and so on. People must walk in their neighborhood and walk their dogs and stuff, and we know people dump yard waste and other trash right there. I wouldn't be surprised if kids go to the school yard to use the playground in the summer months, I don't know, unless it's locked up or something. And the back yards of the two houses there at the end of the street are so close. (Even the Anthonys said they used to walk up to the corner of Hopespring and Suburban during their normal walks, but turning left there at Suburban which makes sense, going around the block. Maybe they only walked when they were taking Caylee for walks though, maybe when she wasn't there they weren't going for their walks.) But anyway, it's just unfortunate that apparently no one noticed the smell in the beginning, (if the remains were there). But even if they did I guess they would most likely have just assumed it was an animal or something.

Another thing that still kind of puzzles me is how her skull got to be in such an upright position sitting on the soil. Anyway, thanks again to Dave for the video

Could the sealed bags have prevented that g-d awful smell from escaping? Have they every estimated how fast decomp would occur in the plastic bags? Bones without flesh buried in muck and water wouldn't give off a smell I would think. I'm thinking by the time the animals got through the bags the majority of decomposition had occurred...but really have no way of knowing for sure.

 

[RR0004]

I don't think it's amazing that she was ever found. Just the opposite. I'm amazed it took so long. (Since her remains were eventually found right up her own street just off the street.) That has nothing to do with TES though, and their work during the time they were there when many areas were indeed very wet and in standing water and they didn't want to accidentally damage evidence. I'm still not 100% sure her remains were in that locale the entire time, though.

I've thought that as well...but where would Casey have hidden the body first...I mean, besides the trunk? Could have been anywhere...only she knows that. And I'm not thinking that it was for a very long time...just long enough to scout out an area better suited for disposal. IMO, I think Cindy was seriously scared of TES looking for Caylee for no other reason than she was afraid they would find her.

 

[6stringer]

hello, first time poster here...have been around since this all began, but for reasons I wont get into, decided not to join. I was content to just get facts, updates here.

I have to admit, although I am sure TES knows what they are doing, and am as sure as I can be that they did do a good job, I am also amazed that it took so long to find Caylee. Just last night I heard (again) a fact on how close to home women tend to dispose of their act. and to be honest? I saw that patch of land before they found her, and thought that would be one of many areas they needed to check. Google maps is a good thing!

while I am at it, I dont quite understand why MD got flamed here? I took it as a tour of the site "at this time of year, to show terrain, vegitation, and standing water". I dont think he was challenging anything?

 

[Darla]

OK - now that broke my heart all over again :cry::cry::cry: and just goes to show you that the cold blooded murderer (Casey) has no soul.

Watching that also confirmed to me, once again, that Casey alone killed sweet little Caylee and just threw her away with everyone's trash. I literally feel sick to my stomach.

Justice for Caylee.


MO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I don't think it's amazing that she was ever found. Just the opposite. I'm amazed it took so long. (Since her remains were eventually found right up her own street just off the street.) That has nothing to do with TES though, and their work during the time they were there when many areas were indeed very wet and in standing water and they didn't want to accidentally damage evidence. I'm still not 100% sure her remains were in that locale the entire time, though.

Orlando encompasses 67.3 square miles of land and has 4.7 square miles of water area.* Caylee was just over 3 feet tall (before disarticulation). Those ratios are in greater disproportion than even the proverbial "needle in a haystack."

Picture yourself standing smack dab in the center of those 67 square miles and someone says to you, "Find this sweet, little 3 ft x 1 ft package for me."

I remain overwhelmingly relieved and amazed that she was ever found. (And let us not forget that she was "found" much earlier than she was retrieved. Had some LE been less lazy she would have been retrieved much earlier.)

ETA: * http://www.idcide.com/citydata/fl/orlando.htm

 

[ZsaZsa]

There would be so many scavengers in that dense patch of vegetation on Suburban Drive that ( to be very graphic) she would not have remained whole for very long..

 

[6stringer]

Orlando encompasses 67.3 square miles of land and has 4.7 square miles of water area.* Caylee was just over 3 feet tall (before disarticulation). Those ratios are in greater disproportion than even the proverbial "needle in a haystack."

Picture yourself standing smack dab in the center of those 67 square miles and someone says to you, "Find this sweet, little 3 ft x 1 ft package for me."

I remain overwhelmingly relieved and amazed that she was ever found. (And let us not forget that she was "found" much earlier than she was retrieved. Had some LE been less lazy she would have been retrieved much earlier.)

ETA: * http://www.idcide.com/citydata/fl/orlando.htm

but an unusually high percentage of female killers dispose of their victims within a quarter of a mile from their home!

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

but an unusually high percentage of female killers dispose of their victims within a quarter of a mile from their home!

I've always wondered if all of the neighbors came together and did a massive search of the entire neighborhood. I never heard that they did. And considering that no one even knew she was missing until 31 days after the fact, (and the Anthonys certainly wouldn't be looking for a "live Caylee" in the woods a month later) I'm not all that shocked that she wasn't found in that swampy jungle.