2010.06.09 Prosecutors File for 911 Calls to Come into Trial

[logicalgirl]

WildChild,

Great post. Cindy has to feel incredibly guilty especially if there had been a fight the night before. The neighbor said Casey was throwing the curse words left and right.

I don't know why Cindy never tried to take the child before this rather than live that lie. All she had to do with social services was proved that Casey has no income, is stealing from family members, using credit cards and cannot provide for Caylee and they would have at least given her temporary guardianship and Casey would not have gotten her back for a while. She could have had her arrested for forging the deposit slip and stealing from her grandfather's account and that would have went a log way towards giving Cindy control. And Cindy most definitely could have kept tabs on Casey to find out what she was up to - would have cost her a lot less in the long run. Instead she let Casey use and abuse the situation to steal and stay out late and she eventually killed the child anyway.

If Cindy admits Casey did it, she has to say she had a big part in this in not taking control sooner. I believe Rick (her brother) told her it was her fault for not taking Casey to task sooner. Did you ever listen to his interview. With all due respect it is a riot at times.

Its incredible how they let Casey run everything into the ground. And if Cindy had taken control of the situation instead of threatening it, she would have seen the coward that Casey is. Instead she let her destroy the family.

Honestly? I think Cindy wanted to believe ICA would finally straighten out if she just kept pushing her. I think Cindy was bone tired of all the problems and wanted to enjoy being a grandparent, not start all over being the parent to a small child again. I think she believed if ICA made an effort, their life could be so good. I think each time ICA's behavior accelerated, Cindy tried harder to "make it work" and each time she got more tired and desperate to solve the situation, while realizing she has no control at all.

I'm not saying I think what Cindy did was right, but in some way, I recognize that desperation about what seems to be a repetitive unsolvable problem.

 

[tiff07]

I don't believe Cindy mean't what she said re a damned dead body in the car. Imo it was to evoke a reaction (and get some action) like she now claims. Listening to tape, the 911 dispatcher stays quiet as Cindy says a sentence before the dead body comment. Often when a person isn't getting some kind of recognition like an 'uh huh' or 'yes' and particularly when dealing with law enforcement, emergency services etc the person will then over-elaborate or even fabricate or embellish, not even meaning to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people say the darndest things under stress or duress, good luck making it fly with a jury though.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I don't believe Cindy mean't what she said re a damned dead body in the car. Imo it was to evoke a reaction (and get some action) like she now claims. Listening to tape, the 911 dispatcher stays quiet as Cindy says a sentence before the dead body comment. Often when a person isn't getting some kind of recognition like an 'uh huh' or 'yes' and particularly when dealing with law enforcement, emergency services etc the person will then over-elaborate or even fabricate or embellish, not even meaning to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people say the darndest things under stress or duress, good luck making it fly with a jury though.

Well I do because the car definitely did 'smell like there's been a dead body in the damned car' in fact it's been proven that there was indeed a dead body in the damned car, so Cindy was quite correct, and her denying it now, looking for an alternative reason for her saying it, and thinking that somehow that would help Casey seems pointless. Now if she's arguing that because she knows that the phonecall itself is damaging to she invented a lie to keep it out of court (which is what happened IMO) well I see her reasoning, but thankfully it didn't work.

 

[The World According]

Well I do because the car definitely did 'smell like there's been a dead body in the damned car' in fact it's been proven that there was indeed a dead body in the damned car, so Cindy was quite correct, and her denying it now, looking for an alternative reason for her saying it, and thinking that somehow that would help Casey seems pointless. Now if she's arguing that because she knows that the phonecall itself is damaging to she invented a lie to keep it out of court (which is what happened IMO) well I see her reasoning, but thankfully it didn't work.

The judge has already ruled on this. You are right Mrs. Norris. The judge agrees with you. Indeed she admitted on the stand she said the first thing that came to her mind...classic excited utterance.

The jury and certainly the judge have common sense, so the calls are coming into trial. They are very compelling.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

How much are we loving HHBP? I think this is just the beginning of many wise decisions to follow.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The judge has already ruled on this. You are right Mrs. Norris. The judge agrees with you. Indeed she admitted on the stand she said the first thing that came to her mind...classic excited utterance.

The jury and certainly the judge have common sense, so the calls are coming into trial. They are very compelling.

....and this is why excited utterance is so important in criminal matters, because people may choose to change their story surrounding things like 911 calls in hindsight, as Cindy herself has.

 

[logicalgirl]

....and this is why excited utterance is so important in criminal matters, because people may choose to change their story surrounding things like 911 calls in hindsight, as Cindy herself has.

Yes, I agree 100%! During the 911 calls, Cindy was speaking her true emotions. As soon as she saw how damaging her utterances were to ICA, she immediately tried to backpedal, coming up with excuse after excuse about how she didn't mean what she said.

I think this is one of HHJP's wisest rulings to date. This time capsule of what was actually happening at that time on that date needs to be preserved in it's pure state, without the usual "I mis-spoke" attempts to dilute the reality of it's impact.

 

[LambChop]

I don't believe Cindy mean't what she said re a damned dead body in the car. Imo it was to evoke a reaction (and get some action) like she now claims. Listening to tape, the 911 dispatcher stays quiet as Cindy says a sentence before the dead body comment. Often when a person isn't getting some kind of recognition like an 'uh huh' or 'yes' and particularly when dealing with law enforcement, emergency services etc the person will then over-elaborate or even fabricate or embellish, not even meaning to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people say the darndest things under stress or duress, good luck making it fly with a jury though.

Problem is there WAS a "damned dead body in the car".

 

[Solace]

I don't believe Cindy mean't what she said re a damned dead body in the car. Imo it was to evoke a reaction (and get some action) like she now claims. Listening to tape, the 911 dispatcher stays quiet as Cindy says a sentence before the dead body comment. Often when a person isn't getting some kind of recognition like an 'uh huh' or 'yes' and particularly when dealing with law enforcement, emergency services etc the person will then over-elaborate or even fabricate or embellish, not even meaning to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people say the darndest things under stress or duress, good luck making it fly with a jury though.

Tiff,

If you listen to the end of the call, you will here Cindy trying to tell George, who has just arrived, that Caylee is missing. It is heartwrenching. She cannot get the words out. She tries 3 times to say Caylee - It is at the end of the call. There is no way this is a contrived call. Lee tells prosecutors that he had to hold on to his mother and George says he was also trying to hold on to Cindy and she literally fell apart. She is devastated and she HAS put the smell together with the missing Caylee. IMO

 

[Solace]

Honestly? I think Cindy wanted to believe ICA would finally straighten out if she just kept pushing her. I think Cindy was bone tired of all the problems and wanted to enjoy being a grandparent, not start all over being the parent to a small child again. I think she believed if ICA made an effort, their life could be so good. I think each time ICA's behavior accelerated, Cindy tried harder to "make it work" and each time she got more tired and desperate to solve the situation, while realizing she has no control at all.

I'm not saying I think what Cindy did was right, but in some way, I recognize that desperation about what seems to be a repetitive unsolvable problem.

I really dont think Cindy thought Casey would change Logical Girl and my reason is this. George says he tried to tell Cindy a few times that Casey was NOT working and he even went to Sports Authority to find that she had not worked their either. This is not just a month period, it goes on for TWO YEARS. Casey said goodbye every day for two years and sometimes did not come home at night saying the baby was with the Nanny and she worked late. Ricardo Morales says Casey and Caylee stayed at his house at least 5 nights a week starting around February. Around March, Cindy seeks a counselor.

Most people don't expect their child to kill, but Casey had been stealing huge amounts of money from Cindy (the grandmother said she thought it was close to 40,000 being charged on credit cards), etc. Casey had forged a deposit slip for $4,400 and when asked about that Cindy LIES and says about $3,000. George tells the FBI it was $4,400. Cindy knows the amount. She also knows Casey is stealing from her grandparents.

I suspect that Casey was "blackmailing" Cindy with taking Caylee away for good and Cindy buckled under that "pressure". But if she had held her own and pressed charges, she would have gotten at least temporary custody and probably eventually sole custody, because Casey would have spent some time in jail and would not have had the opportunity to get "better" because she would have progressed on her sociopathic way and gotten worse day by day. She would have sought out people that she could use monetarily and eventually would have to move to new friends as she had been doing - because people were on to her and she would move on. If Casey had not been found by Cindy through Amy on July 15th, Amy would have FOUND OUT that Casey had written checks on her account and that relationship would be over along with her relationship with Tony - Amy surely would have told everyone. As it happens Amy brought Cindy to Casey on July 15th.

Cindy made a huge mistake and I believe in her heart she knows this. So she hangs on by her fingernails implicating Jesse, Amy, Tony, Ricardo - anyone she can and Lee goes along with it as does George. Cindy rather than facing this fact is more than willing to implicate the innocent in order to protect herself from this truth. She has ended her relationship with her brother Rick because he told her she was responsible for not taking Casey to task when she should have and allowed the lying, stealing etc. to go on.

 

[The World According]

How much are we loving HHBP? I think this is just the beginning of many wise decisions to follow.

My little niece tells me, Aunt Julia...she throws her arms wide open..."I love you BIG!!! I love you this much".

We love him BIG.

 

[logicalgirl]

I really dont think Cindy thought Casey would change Logical Girl and my reason is this. George says he tried to tell Cindy a few times that Casey was NOT working and he even went to Sports Authority to find that she had not worked their either. This is not just a month period, it goes on for TWO YEARS. Casey said goodbye every day for two years and sometimes did not come home at night saying the baby was with the Nanny and she worked late. Ricardo Morales says Casey and Caylee stayed at his house at least 5 nights a week starting around February. Around March, Cindy seeks a counselor.

Most people don't expect their child to kill, but Casey had been stealing huge amounts of money from Cindy (the grandmother said she thought it was close to 40,000 being charged on credit cards), etc. Casey had forged a deposit slip for $4,400 and when asked about that Cindy LIES and says about $3,000. George tells the FBI it was $4,400. Cindy knows the amount. She also knows Casey is stealing from her grandparents.

I suspect that Casey was "blackmailing" Cindy with taking Caylee away for good and Cindy buckled under that "pressure". But if she had held her own and pressed charges, she would have gotten at least temporary custody and probably eventually sole custody, because Casey would have spent some time in jail and would not have had the opportunity to get "better" because she would have progressed on her sociopathic way and gotten worse day by day. She would have sought out people that she could use monetarily and eventually would have to move to new friends as she had been doing - because people were on to her and she would move on. If Casey had not been found by Cindy through Amy on July 15th, Amy would have FOUND OUT that Casey had written checks on her account and that relationship would be over along with her relationship with Tony - Amy surely would have told everyone. As it happens Amy brought Cindy to Casey on July 15th.

Cindy made a huge mistake and I believe in her heart she knows this. So she hangs on by her fingernails implicating Jesse, Amy, Tony, Ricardo - anyone she can and Lee goes along with it as does George. Cindy rather than facing this fact is more than willing to implicate the innocent in order to protect herself from this truth. She has ended her relationship with her brother Rick because he told her she was responsible for not taking Casey to task when she should have and allowed the lying, stealing etc. to go on.

I see your points - well thought out.

However, what I see is a mother's love - never ending and never giving up hope.

 

[logicalgirl]

Dr. Robert Hare, a Canadian, is one of the leading shrinks and researchers in the area of Psychopaths. He was recently the Scientific Consultant on a movie done in collaboration with a psychopath. This is what the director had to say about the experience.

"Psychopaths…they’ll charm you, manipulate you, then ruin your life. But, not all of them with a gun or a knife. In this extra-ordinary documentary, suspected psychopath Sam Vaknin goes in search of a diagnosis…was he born without a conscience?

“Making a movie with a psychopath,” declares I, Psychopath’s director Ian Walker, “is a little like poking a snake with a stick.” Unwittingly, the film-maker becomes a textbook victim.

Joined by Vaknin’s long-suffering but ever-loyal wife Lidija, the threesome embark on a diagnostic road trip to the world’s top experts in psychopathy in which Vaknin (and his wife) undergo a battery of rigorous psychological tests and neuroscientific experiments. He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy.

The former corporate criminal turns out to be a way better psychopath than any of them imagined. When things don’t quite go his way, Vaknin turns on the Director, unleashing vicious displays of verbal abuse which show the psychopath in ‘bullying mode” and make for some of the most disturbing moments in the film. "

By the end, Walker almost calls it quits on his own film rather than spend another day with its main subject.

D'ya think maybe Cindy was a little out of her depth trying to deal with ICA but bound by a mother's love?

 

[The World According]

The Federal Agent interviewing Cindy and then George, the one that had them each fill out a long questionnaire about a personality profile...summed it up perfectly.

He was very polite to her, but when he got pop in front of him, he let him know... (my take on what he said)

a) Your wife has a very, VERY skewed way, a wholly unrealistic way of looking at Casey, she described her as "Trustworthy, responsible, a great mother".

b) Your wife doesn't separate her identity as different and outside of what Casey does. She spent a great deal of time describing to me what kind of mother she was, down to details of her discipline, how she packed a bag for her kids, how she potty trained. Unable to see Casey as a wholly separate person, she wanted to illustrate to me that Casey couldn't have done this, because SHE couldn't have done this. Casey loved her child because SHE loves her children. Admitting , even to herself, that Casey harmed her baby is tantamount in her mind to her having hurt the baby. The no, no, no NOT MY CHILD, THE CHILD I RAISED.... is actually a common phenomenon. Indeed the jury is often instructed if they deem a witness to have a clear bias , such as this, they of course can set aside their testimony. She is in denial and it does appear to be quite an emotional block. That being said...you sir and I know her prism is not factual, all of Casey's lies, all of the evidence, all of the stories utterly make no sense, yet mom regurgitates them, and endorses them with no awareness of how they are just as silly , the second time around and easily disprovable as they were when they came out of Casey's mouth.

Grandma Shirley said to LE the entire matter in one sentence. Cindy emotionally cannot get to Casey is lying, because if Casey is lying than Caylee is dead, and that thought is simply unbearable!

Grandma Shirley and the Federal Agent have different skill sets, but they both arrived at the truth.

Indeed denial is one of the first mind sets in the grief cycle.

When I first saw C M A in pastel wooden letters on Caylee's nursery/room wall it bothered me. I remember thinking she is not your name sake or a little you, Cindy, she is her own person. It just offended me, why they didn't spell out C A Y L E E. Then when I thought my hearing was failing me, I had to watch some of the home movies over and over and indeed the family was calling this child Cays. No she is not a Casey do over!! In interviews both George and Cindy, Cindy ( more- so ) mentions that Caylee was like getting a second chance to raise Casey. She was to have the same experiences and the same teachers Casey had. WHAT?!!!! Then here we go with the C M A by brother at the memorial, which Lee explained to Mr. Morgan, has always in the Anthony family represented the holy trinity. ( ALL MY PARAPHRASING )

I wish I could get to the point in one wise soundbite like Grandmother Shirley. What I am trying to say is she may come out of the fog eventually, but what we have seen from mom so far is a very narcissistic person worrying over how things reflect on HER. She has no use for Casey, save for that. if you don't believe me, ask Cindy's brother Rick.

George FBI Video Interview

Part 1
http://www.wftv.com/video/18032897/index.html

Part 2
http://www.wftv.com/video/18032972/index.html

Part 3
http://www.wftv.com/video/18033186/index.html

Part 4
http://www.wftv.com/video/18033932/index.html

Part 5
http://www.wftv.com/video/18033964/index.html

Part 6
http://www.wftv.com/video/18034862/index.html

Part 7
http://www.wftv.com/video/18035029/index.html

Cindy FBI Video Interview

Part 1
http://www.wftv.com/video/18035355/index.html

Part 2
http://www.wftv.com/video/18035442/index.html

Part 3
http://www.wftv.com/video/18036013/index.html

Part 4
http://www.wftv.com/video/18036192/index.html

Part 5
http://www.wftv.com/video/18049738/index.html

Part 6
http://www.wftv.com/video/18050069/index.html

Part 7
http://www.wftv.com/video/18050784/index.html

Part 8
http://www.wftv.com/video/18051643/index.html

Part 9
http://www.wftv.com/video/18051643/index.html

Part 10
http://www.wftv.com/video/18052101/index.html

Part 11
http://www.wftv.com/video/18052163/index.html

 

[LambChop]

TWA, you nailed it. Thanks.

 

[ohiogirl]

Dr. Robert Hare, a Canadian, is one of the leading shrinks and researchers in the area of Psychopaths. He was recently the Scientific Consultant on a movie done in collaboration with a psychopath. This is what the director had to say about the experience.

"Psychopaths…they’ll charm you, manipulate you, then ruin your life. But, not all of them with a gun or a knife. In this extra-ordinary documentary, suspected psychopath Sam Vaknin goes in search of a diagnosis…was he born without a conscience?

“Making a movie with a psychopath,” declares I, Psychopath’s director Ian Walker, “is a little like poking a snake with a stick.” Unwittingly, the film-maker becomes a textbook victim.

Joined by Vaknin’s long-suffering but ever-loyal wife Lidija, the threesome embark on a diagnostic road trip to the world’s top experts in psychopathy in which Vaknin (and his wife) undergo a battery of rigorous psychological tests and neuroscientific experiments. He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy.

The former corporate criminal turns out to be a way better psychopath than any of them imagined. When things don’t quite go his way, Vaknin turns on the Director, unleashing vicious displays of verbal abuse which show the psychopath in ‘bullying mode” and make for some of the most disturbing moments in the film. "

By the end, Walker almost calls it quits on his own film rather than spend another day with its main subject.

D'ya think maybe Cindy was a little out of her depth trying to deal with ICA but bound by a mother's love?

Maybe, but I think it was more like Casey learned well at her mother's knee.

 

[Solace]

I see your points - well thought out.

However, what I see is a mother's love - never ending and never giving up hope.

I understand. However, I think Cindy has some sociopathic tendencies herself - because she is willing to implicate those four friends of Casey's when she knows very well that Amy brought her to Casey and the probability of Amy being involved is practically nill. She tells countless lies herself. This is not the actions of someone who is after the truth. It is someone who wants to be "off the hook" because she knows she should have removed Caylee from Casey's care - George told his friend at the memorial "if only we had gotten custody" or words to that effect.

Cindy has had a very hard time and it is going to get worse. But, as a detective once said, the victim gets lost - you cannot imagine what the victim went through until you are actually at the crime scene - it is horrendous. This child suffered and Cindy had ample opportunity to take control and she did not. She was the responsible adult and needed to take care of Caylee and sadly she did not and she knows it. It is horrible and it is sad and Cindy never wanted it and was shocked to see it, but
she also told Ryan Paisley Casey is a sociopath. So why is she leaving her grandchild in the care of a sociopath? .

The reality of the situation cannot be denied. Thanks again.

 

[Solace]

Dr. Robert Hare, a Canadian, is one of the leading shrinks and researchers in the area of Psychopaths. He was recently the Scientific Consultant on a movie done in collaboration with a psychopath. This is what the director had to say about the experience.

"Psychopaths…they’ll charm you, manipulate you, then ruin your life. But, not all of them with a gun or a knife. In this extra-ordinary documentary, suspected psychopath Sam Vaknin goes in search of a diagnosis…was he born without a conscience?

“Making a movie with a psychopath,” declares I, Psychopath’s director Ian Walker, “is a little like poking a snake with a stick.” Unwittingly, the film-maker becomes a textbook victim.

Joined by Vaknin’s long-suffering but ever-loyal wife Lidija, the threesome embark on a diagnostic road trip to the world’s top experts in psychopathy in which Vaknin (and his wife) undergo a battery of rigorous psychological tests and neuroscientific experiments. He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy.

The former corporate criminal turns out to be a way better psychopath than any of them imagined. When things don’t quite go his way, Vaknin turns on the Director, unleashing vicious displays of verbal abuse which show the psychopath in ‘bullying mode” and make for some of the most disturbing moments in the film. "

By the end, Walker almost calls it quits on his own film rather than spend another day with its main subject.

D'ya think maybe Cindy was a little out of her depth trying to deal with ICA but bound by a mother's love?

Yes, but Casey is a sociopath Logical Girl. Psychopaths plan. As we can see from Casey's behaviour, she does not think more than 10 minutes ahead. It is an interesting disorder because for some reason, which is beyond me, the sociopath just makes up the lies as she goes along, WHEREAS, the psychopath is markedly different in that respect, as the psychopath plans and it is for that reason, they are harder to catch.

But they are very similar sociopaths and psychopaths.

 

[logicalgirl]

I understand. However, I think Cindy has some sociopathic tendencies herself - because she is willing to implicate those four friends of Casey's when she knows very well that Amy brought her to Casey and the probability of Amy being involved is practically nill. She tells countless lies herself. This is not the actions of someone who is after the truth. It is someone who wants to be "off the hook" because she knows she should have removed Caylee from Casey's care - George told his friend at the memorial "if only we had gotten custody" or words to that effect.

Cindy has had a very hard time and it is going to get worse. But, as a detective once said, the victim gets lost - you cannot imagine what the victim went through until you are actually at the crime scene - it is horrendous. This child suffered and Cindy had ample opportunity to take control and she did not. She was the responsible adult and needed to take care of Caylee and sadly she did not and she knows it. It is horrible and it is sad and Cindy never wanted it and was shocked to see it, but
she also told Ryan Paisley Casey is a sociopath. So why is she leaving her grandchild in the care of a sociopath? .

The reality of the situation cannot be denied. Thanks again.

Solace I am agreeing with much of what you are saying. I am in no way trying to negate Cindy's behavior - at all! I'm talking root cause - you're discussing cause and effect. Cindy has much to answer for.

 

[logicalgirl]

Maybe, but I think it was more like Casey learned well at her mother's knee.

I'd like to think so also, but from all the reading I've been doing regarding psychopaths, no one influences a psychopath, even as a child.