2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[gardeness]

....that can be explained by stress or not hindering the investigation into Kyron's disappearance or...........I can think of many explanations.

IMO, this isn't going to be the final chapter in the family law court. It's much more complicated.

bbm

But...from my perspective, Kaine's distinction of Terri giving the "thumbs up" and comment to reporters is that she's a liar--wouldn't that apply to him, too, in these instances? IMO, Terri was under stress at that time (and, she probably has her own reasons of why she did that--privacy, etc.)... mho

 

[ami]

I have seen posted all over this website, and I don't mean by you in particular, sheer fury at parents who stand back and make excuses for and allow their partners to endanger or abuse their children. Who don't put the safety and well-being of their children first, above their adult relationships. Who even witness such abuse and choose to remain and subject their children to further danger. Too many times we've seen where this leads, with either the parent or the child (or both) injured or dead. This (justifiable) anger toward the people who are supposed to protect the little ones from harm is expressed time and again in nearly every case I've read here.

I understand the dynamics of what you're talking about and that it happens far too often. I suspect most kids just grow up to become rather insecure (and co-dependent) adults, ensuring the cycle continues. But some, like Kyron and too many others, don't make it out. That's why, while I do understand what MAY have been going on here with Kaine, I just can't give him a pass on this. He knew this was "common" and yet allowed it to continue and even admits that baby was adversely affected by all that went on in that house.

Regardless of Terri's guilt or innocence in Kyron's disappearance, it's clear from this document that Kaine was aware his daughter (at least) was endangered by her mother's actions and behaviors. It seems he WAS more worried about "offending" Terri than making sure his daughter was safe and secure. I can't get past that point. And if his daughter's safety wasn't high on his list of priorities up to the point Kyron went missing, then why would the judge necessarily believe that to be the case now? That's the argument I see coming out of this (or something similar).

Well, I disagree. Kaine and Desiree have both stated that with the information they had at the time, they didn't believe Terri was capable of harm and didn't believe she was an abusive mother. Spending too much time on the computer, getting drunk at 7pm, not having the baby on a schedule - red flags in retrospect, certainly not what I would consider a good mother or even a very "fit" mother, but hardly something to call CPS about or immediately divorce over if you believed this could change, if you had hope you were working it out.

When taken in the context of information that came later - last person seen with missing/abducted/possibly murdered child, drinking friends alcohol when visiting, flirting and sexting and leaving baby K in daycare for several hours at a go while flirting, etc, lying, failing LDTs, changing stories, more lies, lying to attorneys, asking others to lie for her, asking someone to murder a spouse --- all of this NEW information now creates a pattern of someone who is clearly unhinged and makes the OTHER behavior of drinking and no baby sleep schedule appear as ominous as it now seems to look.

 

[gardeness]

Well, I disagree. Kaine and Desiree have both stated that with the information they had at the time, they didn't believe Terri was capable of harm and didn't believe she was an abusive mother. Spending too much time on the computer, getting drunk at 7pm, not having the baby on a schedule - red flags in retrospect, certainly not what I would consider a good mother or even a very "fit" mother, but hardly something to call CPS about or immediately divorce over if you believed this could change, if you had hope you were working it out.

When taken in the context of information that came later - last person seen with missing/abducted/possibly murdered child, drinking friends alcohol when visiting, flirting and sexting and leaving baby K in daycare for several hours at a go while flirting, etc, lying, failing LDTs, changing stories, more lies, lying to attorneys, asking others to lie for her, asking someone to murder a spouse --- all of this NEW information now creates a pattern of someone who is clearly unhinged and makes the OTHER behavior of drinking and no baby sleep schedule appear as ominous as it now seems to look.

I'm curious about this statement from Kaine, as most gyms have a limit to how long children can be in the daycare...

ETA: This is for 24-Hour Fitness: "up to 2 hours supervision per day"
http://www.24hourfitness.com/health_clubs/gym_day_care/

 

[ami]

bbm

No, I wouldn't. He says he was present and responsible for her care 5-7 days a week. He says he was present and caring for the kids in the afternoons and evenings, when Terri was visibly intoxicated and passing out by 7pm. He doesn't need LE or friends or neighbors or witnesses to tell him this. He claims he was there and witnessed this himself.

So either his earlier statements to the media were untrue, or this document is. It can't be both ways.

Again, I disagree. His characterizations of their relationship went far beyond whether she drank too much. He didn't think she was capable of child murder before. He got more information and then believed she WAS capable. It changed his perspective on her previous behavior. Drinking and passed out at 7pm while another sober adult was in the house - bad parenting. Doing that same thing while trying to kill your husband - insane criminal behavior.

 

[nursebeeme]

Just got done reading the documents and also the "sexts" and just want to say.... ((as someone who has never been on the fence and won't be any time soon)) that this nailed it in a little further for me....

Terri needs to talk. She needs to do the right thing and tell where Kyron is.

((and for a little levity... I think I need some eyeball bleach after reading those sexts!))

 

[Calliope]

There are MANY THAT respectfully YET STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH the entire basis above.. None of us[that have no 1st hand experience and knowledge in this vein of the law] have a clue what a well educated defense lawyer team such as Bunch and Houze will question and STRONGLY DISAGREE that they would be foolish in engaging in such a line of questioning as is given as an example above... and only those that legitimately have 1st hand experience and knowledge could even begin to "guess"[and that is all that can be done is guess, and wildly guess at that] would be an atty with this exact vein of law practiced..

and post after post our verified lawyers have stated that Terri has done irreparable damage to her interests of gaining any parenting time[along with much and many detailed posts speaking in lay terms just what a tangled web that Terri herself has weaved]..

IMO no atty worth his salt would engage in anything even resembling the above.. and am anxious to get gitana1's opinions and comments on this latest doc filed with the courts yesterday..as she has been a treasure trove of knowledge and experience in this exact vein of law and a tremendous asset to all of us here in the Kyron Forum...

Oh, they don't have to get Kaine on the stand and grill him like that. All that is necessary is to make those points in their argument to the judge.

 

[Kimster]

bbm

But...from my perspective, Kaine's distinction of Terri giving the "thumbs up" and comment to reporters is that she's a liar--wouldn't that apply to him, too, in these instances? IMO, Terri was under stress at that time (and, she probably has her own reasons of why she did that--privacy, etc.)... mho

It sounds reasonable, yes. This isn't going to be a case for sissies, to be sure!

 

[Calliope]

Just got done reading the documents and also the "sexts" and just want to say.... ((as someone who has never been on the fence and won't be any time soon)) that this nailed it in a little further for me....

Terri needs to talk. She needs to do the right thing and tell where Kyron is.

((and for a little levity... I think I need some eyeball bleach after reading those sexts!))

will this do?

I got the super-economy size just for this occasion.

 

[Calliope]

Again, I disagree. His characterizations of their relationship went far beyond whether she drank too much. He didn't think she was capable of child murder before. He got more information and then believed she WAS capable. It changed his perspective on her previous behavior. Drinking and passed out at 7pm while another sober adult was in the house - bad parenting. Doing that same thing while trying to kill your husband - insane criminal behavior.

I understand the point you're making. My point --- forgetting for a moment all else going on here --- there was a year-old baby wandering around unsupervised in the middle of the night. And it was a "common" occurrence. Meaning he allowed it to happen. Over and over.

 

[Angel4u2Whisper2]

Respectfully, we do not know that Kaine didn't take any "action" on what he knew or seen at the time of this behavior. This possiable action may have even be seen as a motive to wanting Kaine to be missing (Murder for hire) and maybe diaglog has taken place that K (before he DID become missing) to spend more time with his birth mother and Tony. Terri could have lied (I know some don't want to think she could but evidence shows she can and does) about her progress in "recovery" and tricked and behaved as expected and requested by Kaine.

I guess what I am saying is that maybe he was doing something and that something is the very thing he feels guilty about cause perhaps he wonders if I didn't press this issue K would still be here with us...So much still unanswered for me to ASSUME that Kaine didn't do nothing about it. Even if I were to find out that he didn't "do enough" in my judgement, I still view him as a victem and hope for healing and strentgh as this has to be the most difficult painful time in his whole life. IMOO.

 

[Marcusdog]

Not irrelevant at all. I guarantee that the judge will take it into account.

What I am going to say is my thoughts so no link. KH is trying to blend both of the cases, Kyron missing and the divorce. The papers, whomever did them were hastily prepared it seems and ooze with one sided hearsay. If you read between the lines the anger comes out with each new paragraph. KH is so stressed out and needs help badly, it is apparent in his court papers, and understandably so with a missing son to worry about. These judges who said KH has probable cause where Kyron is concerned might have been speaking off the record and might not sign papers as to their opinion of this case. With all the gossip surrounding this case, pills, drunkenness, etc I wonder how many of these well meaning friends who offered up these episodes will be willing to sign affidavits swearing to the effect that THs parenting skills were lax and the tales are actually true. The court will also wonder if TH was doing all these things she is accused of why did KH trust her to raise the kids. The judge will look over the text's but they were sent after KH moved out of the family home and let's face it, judges have sex lives too so no matter that they were rather raunchy on THs part they too are hearsay. In fact most of what is in the papers seems to be hearsay. TH will likely get visitation with her baby and KH will hopefully get some expert help. All this bickering back and forth is not helping to bring Kyron home. MOO

 

[grandmaj]

The point here is what do we know about what Kaine might have done. To blankly state that Kaine did nothing to protect the children is not fact. That may be an opinion. We don't know if he took actions.

He may well have done many things and has intentionally left that out of his motion to allow for those answers to hold the weight of testimony at the hearing.

Let's be careful about saying Kaine did nothing. That isn't fact. That is speculation.

And we can turn that around and speculate that the reason Kyron is missing is that perhaps there was a confrontation which made Terri hate Kaine so much that she hurt Kyron. It is speculation! Not fact.

 

[Calliope]

Well, I disagree. Kaine and Desiree have both stated that with the information they had at the time, they didn't believe Terri was capable of harm and didn't believe she was an abusive mother. Spending too much time on the computer, getting drunk at 7pm, not having the baby on a schedule - red flags in retrospect, certainly not what I would consider a good mother or even a very "fit" mother, but hardly something to call CPS about or immediately divorce over if you believed this could change, if you had hope you were working it out.

When taken in the context of information that came later - last person seen with missing/abducted/possibly murdered child, drinking friends alcohol when visiting, flirting and sexting and leaving baby K in daycare for several hours at a go while flirting, etc, lying, failing LDTs, changing stories, more lies, lying to attorneys, asking others to lie for her, asking someone to murder a spouse --- all of this NEW information now creates a pattern of someone who is clearly unhinged and makes the OTHER behavior of drinking and no baby sleep schedule appear as ominous as it now seems to look.

What he describes in this document aren't red flags in retrospect. They are alarms bells going off in your face in real time.

 

[kjf3961]

In my opinion there had to be co dependency going on. Kaine never left the household with the children. He may have threatened to if she didn't get herself together but I think he may have joined her here and there and felt some guilt watching her go over the deep end when the drinking got out of control. Alcoholics are masters at lying, manipulation and acting. Maybe he thought she somewhat got her act together?

 

[ami]

I understand the point you're making. My point --- forgetting for a moment all else going on here --- there was a year-old baby wandering around unsupervised in the middle of the night. And it was a "common" occurrence. Meaning he allowed it to happen. Over and over.

Yep, he was certainly not on top of the issue, even if he was trying to fix it (waking up to bring her back to bed, etc). I'm not sure how he could have stopped it from happening, though, short of leaving Terri and somehow taking the baby with him. Which of course did happen, except under terrible circumstances.

What he describes in this document aren't red flags in retrospect. They are alarms bells going off in your face in real time.

Of a bad mother, yes. Of a child murderer? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

I mean I don't believe Kaine was handling the falling apart Terri very well at all. I don't mean to defend him as if he were a great father - I don't know that he was and there's a lot of evidence that he ignored a lot of warning signs. In an ideal world, Terri would have had an intervention and been in alcohol rehab, a nanny would have been hired, and all would have been safe. But I know people are reluctant to "pull that trigger" if they can convince themselves it can be handled privately, within the family.

I agree that baby K would have been healthier and by all accounts is healthier on a sleep schedule. I agree that with one drunk and one sleeping parent, she had a greater than usual chance of not being heard should she have fallen or gotten into something dangerous in the middle of the night.


The part I can't agree with (at this moment, perhaps with more info that will change) is that Terri gave signs that she was capable of actually killing or abducting or selling a child, or conspiring to do those things. I don't think anyone could be blamed for not seeing that coming and doing something to stop it.

 

[Calliope]

Yep, he was certainly not on top of the issue, even if he was trying to fix it (waking up to bring her back to bed, etc). I'm not sure how he could have stopped it from happening, though, short of leaving Terri and somehow taking the baby with him. Which of course did happen, except under terrible circumstances.




Of a bad mother, yes. Of a child murderer? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

I mean I don't believe Kaine was handling the falling apart Terri very well at all. I don't mean to defend him as if he were a great father - I don't know that he was and there's a lot of evidence that he ignored a lot of warning signs. In an ideal world, Terri would have had an intervention and been in alcohol rehab, a nanny would have been hired, and all would have been safe. But I know people are reluctant to "pull that trigger" if they can convince themselves it can be handled privately, within the family.

I agree that baby K would have been healthier and by all accounts is healthier on a sleep schedule. I agree that with one drunk and one sleeping parent, she had a greater than usual chance of not being heard should she have fallen or gotten into something dangerous in the middle of the night.


The part I can't agree with (at this moment, perhaps with more info that will change) is that Terri gave signs that she was capable of actually killing or abducting or selling a child, or conspiring to do those things. I don't think anyone could be blamed for not seeing that coming and doing something to stop it.

I wasn't getting to that point, just to clarify. I'm simply addressing the danger to the children at the time all this was going on.

 

[SurfieTX]

Pertinent details from this document added to the case calendar. Of interest, it was initially reported and believed that Kaine moved out on June 28, 2010, when in fact per this document, he left June 26, 2010. Also, Terri called 9-1-1 on June 26, 2010, about custody of K. Terri went to the gym sometime during the day on June 28, 2010, to inquire about baby K being there in daycare; however, she was not served with the restraining order until later that evening. This is all per Kaine in the document linked to up-thread.

ETA: June 28, 2010, is when DeDe came to stay with Terri.

 

[Kimster]

Pertinent details from this document added to the case calendar. Of interest, it was initially reported and believed that Kaine moved out on June 28, 2010, when in fact per this document, he left June 26, 2010. Also, Terri called 9-1-1 on June 26, 2010, about custody of K. Terri went to the gym sometime during the day on June 28, 2010, to inquire about baby K being there in daycare; however, she was not served with the restraining order until later that evening. This is all per Kaine in the document linked to up-thread.

:bow: Thank you AGAIN! Logging this information is essential to sleuthing! :woohoo:

 

[believe09]

I am having a hard time with any implication that Kaine has catagorically erred in his reaction to this situation-after all he made it out alive and so did Baby K. Sounds like a successful response to me. Even if we apply hindsight, and we take his words at face value-Baby K "may have" been emotionally hurt by staying up and not having a schedule. But now she is thriving. Since he took over 7 days a week. Rather than 3-5.

I think quarterbacking is easy-and that is what we do across the boards here...we debate and we apply hindsight. But in this case, Kaine got out and Baby K is doing well. I hate to read anything that implies he was responsible for putting Baby K in danger regardless of what we know the outcome to be so far. He says she is thriving and he will have to prove it. But she is healthy and thriving. And hopefully Kaine is doing better than he was, given the fact that he still has a son who is missing and no answers from the person he believes to be responsible.

 

[ami]

I wasn't getting to that point, just to clarify. I'm simply addressing the danger to the children at the time all this was going on.

I am having a hard time with any implication that Kaine has catagorically erred in his reaction to this situation-after all he made it out alive and so did Baby K. Sounds like a successful response to me. Even if we apply hindsight, and we take his words at face value-Baby K "may have" been emotionally hurt by staying up and not having a schedule. But now she is thriving. Since he took over 7 days a week. Rather than 3-5.

I think quarterbacking is easy-and that is what we do across the boards here...we debate and we apply hindsight. But in this case, Kaine got out and Baby K is doing well. I hate to read anything that implies he was responsible for putting Baby K in danger regardless of what we know the outcome to be so far. He says she is thriving and he will have to prove it. But she is healthy and thriving. And hopefully Kaine is doing better than he was, given the fact that he still has a son who is missing and no answers from the person he believes to be responsible.

I guess that was what I was getting at, too... as far as neglect of baby K, there may have been red flags that baby K could have been harmed during the time Terri was neglectful - but she wasn't physically harmed by this neglect. The real issue was Kyron's disappearance (and the murder for hire), and there were no red flags that we've seen so far to indicate there were clues to that in Terri's behavior.

In other words, the red flags signaled danger about things that never ended up happening. No (?) red flags signaled the danger of the things that actually did happen.