2010.06.30 Andrea Lyon is off the Dream Team! She quits!

[BeckyKY]

I think AL performed some basic math.

1. She reviewed the evidence and testimony against KC together with the fact her DP motions were struck down (twice) and HHJP is strict.

2. She reviewed the profile and mitigating circumstances that came in from that on-going work on KC and the A's.

AL performed a risk assessment and ran the numbers and, as she said in one of her seminars ..... sometimes there is no hope and you just need to call a spade a spade and walk away. The odds were not even close!

I agree with those who feel AL used KC's indigency and financial challenges as a graceful exit to save face.

Exit stage left AL.

IMO
I completely agree with what you said.

 

[LambChop]

I iam wondering if these "allegations" were not planted in KC's mind by this mitigation specialist asking questions about abuse.....

KC had told Jesse when they were engaged that Lee had molested her and that she suffered from abuse from her dad. But as RG stated in his depo KC was trying to get Jesse to get a house so she could get away from her mother and that could have been a story she was using to convince Jesse to get their own place. jmo

 

[Aedrys]

Just an idea to throw out here-perhaps AL (with the help of her mitigation investigator Jeanene Barret) saw up close that there was nothing redeeming about KC. I can't believe there was anything "fiscal" in her motivation to leave the case. A truly lame excuse if you feel someones life hangs in the balance IMO! However, she spent enough time (as did Jeanene B) around ICA and her family to see how this family operates now and in the past. I think this snip from her article in the Huffington Post is quite telling-
Fighting the Death Penalty: Hope for Change
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrea-lyon/fighting-the-death-penalt_b_630975.html
<snipped>
Once, I defended a young woman for killing the father who had been molesting her since she was five years old. Unfortunately, I made mistakes during the trial and I lost the case. At its conclusion, I rushed to reassure her that we would appeal. What did she say to me -- this young woman facing many many years in prison? "Are you okay? Are you all right to drive? I don't want you to be home alone tonight." She was more worried about me than about her own sad fate. Happily, I did get her conviction reversed on appeal, and we settled for time served in lieu of a new trial.

What this story demonstrates to me is that even people facing the most horrendous prospects are still capable of caring about someone other than themselves. Time and time again, I have seen incarcerated people find within themselves unexpected capacities. Some counsel younger inmates; some mediate family conflicts; many make a positive contribution to the world. And even those who have demonstrated total indifference to the lives of others can change. Redemption is possible. As long as there is life, even if it is a life in prison with no chance of parole, there is hope for change.

Yes, there may have been conflict within the defense team and maybe AL didn't want to lose her winning record. But, perhaps AL (with help from Jeanene) saw KC's true evil and the evidence and simply couldn't bear to be a part of defending KC!! Long shot-I know!! But, I'm using AL's theory for "change" on AL! :angel:

I actually think you are on to something here. It sounds like AL is willing to fight for a defendant that shows her that there is hope for the life she is fighting to save. I'm wondering if Casey has never given AL reason to think that saving her life would mean that Casey would turn her life around or do something good for herself. I know a defense attorney isn't required to believe in a defendant's guilt, but it seems like AL might be on of those defense attorneys that only fights for defendants they can actually believe in. It seems to me that she sees nothing good about Casey, no future good deeds or any future at all. Maybe Casey has shown her so much how selfish and evil she is that AL finally couldn't go on and keep defending her when there was nothing there worth defending to AL.

Where Baez saw fame and money, AL at first saw a cause she believed in that would generate more fame to her. I think she finally realized that there is nothing for her to believe in here, and so any fame from this case is just not worth it and neither is the defendant worth saving either.

And who knows, maybe she promised Casey she'd be there until the end, and now she's gone and Casey is really upset because this mother figure that promised to be there isn't anymore. I think it's cruel of AL if she did foster a mother-daughter type relationship with Casey and then cut it off when it didn't benefit AL anymore. Maybe it reminded Casey of her relationship with her mother, and maybe that's why she was so upset in court Friday.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Could it be the Judge Perry influenced her decision - he may have told her to leave in so many words.

What did I miss? Why are people of the opinion that AL is run by her ego?
IMO most successful people have some ego, that is, a desire for themselves to be successful. :waitasec: Plus when you work that hard and are of a certain age, imo you are entitled to a certain amount of ego. Afterall, she has a successful record at what she does.

I don't think the team has to tell us exactly why things are unfolding the way they are so they just say something that sounds plausible but they don't owe us an explanation. In the end, we may understand how and why. Maybe she needed to go home for personal reasons.

She calls herself the 'Angel of Death Row'- some over inflated ego I think, I certainly cannot take her seriously when she embroiders what she does in that way.

 

[TorisMom003]

Okay please help me here - what did she say in those videos that has everyone so turned off? I watched one but will have to rewatch with more interest.

When AL made those videos, her audience was composed of like minded people so there would be a different approach as to how she spoke in that situation -
like she was among friends and she was the expert/teacher. I'll shut up until I watch the videos. It is an 'us against them' situation though when she is fighting her cause. :waitasec:

Also imo you're not tooting your own horn if you're simply stating what your experience has been. She admits to loosing a case but then later winning it on appeal.
Her point of the story though was that her client had been concerned about her wellbeing therefore was not a total monster.

SOTS has done a fabulous job with finding the videos of those lectures for us. There is a thread here about them and SOTS comments on those lectures as well.

When you have a lawyer making remarks about female prosecutors having "strap-ons" at home, that a jury is full of "killers", that she clearly can't stand other women, etc.....then I have a problem with her. True, she is a teacher and a lawyer. Maybe that is just her "style" of teaching, but to me it is sickening. I would suggest that you listen to the audios, read that thread, read the comments by SOTS. It explains A Lyon very well. A lawyer like that is not going to have the respect of any jury IF they have heard her lectures before.

My problem with her article that she posted on the same day as she quit Casey's defense team is that she "believes in life instead of death" but not enough to stay and finish the job that she started. She has tooted her own horn by giving herself the "Angel of Death Row" title. This is a woman that is so concerned with someone not getting the death penalty that she will allow an innocent man to sit in prison so that her client lives. She makes me understand why some people can not stand nor trust defense lawyers.

ETA: I have bumped the thread for you and here is the link for it. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93958&page=7&highlight=andrea+lyon+lectures

 

[sleutherontheside]

As one that has listened to hours of her lectures and shared comments she has made....let me assure you that regardless of her MO....her routine.....her protocol........her desire to save a life is always the impression she drives home.

Do I agree with all of her comments and her opinions. Ummmmmmmmmmm NOPE!!! But do I doubt her passion for saving a life????? NO

I have posted my thoughts and links to these AL references so that people could better understand her perspective....her POV......her plan. PLease read those posts with that in mind. God forbid anyone on WS would find themselves in need of a DP attorney.......but if they did......her teachings would be helpful to have in ones corner.

I don't agree with many of her arguments but folks....she is not KC. Keep that in mind.

 

[chefmom]

It could be that the defense has acquired information about KC's history that would cause a jury to at least partially understand why KC was in conflict about her child and her family. Honestly, I don't know which side knows what but it seems like something is up.

It is my understanding though that a Lawyer can't just up and quit a case in the middle of it unless they get the permission of the court - why and when can a team member quit? What's up with that I wonder?

I didn't think that was something that happened very often either, but here we are seeing the "Angel Of Death Row" walk away from a highly publicized DP case. :waitasec: I do not believe for one second that it has anything to do with money. I think that is a convenient excuse. I think it is either fueled by DePaul University, who may have realized how much of their donations were going to defending KC and they did not like it. Or, AL has decided that KC is not going to cooperate with her in doing and saying what needs to be in order to save her from the needle. JMO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I iam wondering if these "allegations" were not planted in KC's mind by this mitigation specialist asking questions about abuse.....

Yes, possibly....although remember Casey had complained to Jesse Grund that Lee had fondled her in the past? Now I don't believe her one bit that that actually happened...but I think Casey had come out with the 'abuse excuse' at times in her past when the heat was on.

Mind you, a mitigation specialist meeting a girl who has used the 'abuse excuse' throughout her life, sounds like a perfect match doesn't it?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

You know I really cannot see that there is anything Casey can use in mitigation if she is found guilty, I really think that if she is convicted that the judge / jury will have no choice but to sentence her to death.

 

[sleutherontheside]

I encourage you to visit the Mitigation thread. Mitigation is much "misunderstood". Many people think that mitigation is to serve as an excuse for the actions of the defendant. Mitigation is simply "offering an explanation about how the defendant got to the place that they did".

Mitigation does not argue why one did it. It simply offers a "glimpse" into the life of the defendant......as a way to show how damaged they are or what they have to offer now.

Mitigation does not excuse or justify a crime........it is a tool used to explain how that person got to the place where committing a crime occurred.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thank you sleutherontheside for posting all of the links that help someone like me (little knowledge of law except for ones I try to obey :angel: - oops, EGO!). A day or so ago I thoroughly read the article covering the development of the role of the mitigation specialist - all 55 pages - and found it very informative although wordy. I think the role of the MS is going to come into play in an important way in KC's trial.

I just got done reading the AL thread but don't have time to listen tonight to the audios and interviews. I got the feel of why people are turned off. It dawned on me though that in many professions people become numb to how they sound to someone outside their profession. Like a Doctor who cracks jokes while performing surgery or a trial lawyer who sounds flip about something that she has found to be true because she lives and breaths in that world. Someone else pointed out that AL's focus is on her client and not the victim of the crime. Realistically that's the way it has to be though or how could any person who has been accused of a serious crime find a defense lawyer.

It is a law that in a DP case that a DP qualified Lawyer is on board so one would think that Lawyer would have to develope angles and methods to help the client escape the DP sentence or why bother? I don't think the DP sentence is applied fairly within or among states that have it. That's a complicated subject.

On a lighter note, it cracked me up when I read that AL made a comment about female Prosecutors being men in highheels or something. Later someone wrote while describing AL that she 'disdains' makeup. My thought is :waitasec:, if you're going to be on T.V. frequently, you should rethink that position. Hey, we all have our specialties!

sots, I don't know what your profession is but you sure bring a lot of excellent material to this forum that reaches beyond opinion and dare I say spouting off as many of us are prone to do :innocent:. I appreciate your posts.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Thank you sleutherontheside for posting all of the links that help someone like me (little knowledge of law except for ones I try to obey :angel: - oops, EGO!). A day or so ago I thoroughly read the article covering the development of the role of the mitigation specialist - all 55 pages - and found it very informative although wordy. I think the role of the MS is going to come into play in an important way in KC's trial.

I just got done reading the AL thread but don't have time to listen tonight to the audios and interviews. I got the feel of why people are turned off. It dawned on me though that in many professions people become numb to how they sound to someone outside their profession. Like a Doctor who cracks jokes while performing surgery or a trial lawyer who sounds flip about something that she has found to be true because she lives and breaths in that world. Someone else pointed out that AL's focus is on her client and not the victim of the crime. Realistically that's the way it has to be though or how could any person who has been accused of a serious crime find a defense lawyer.

It is a law that in a DP case that a DP qualified Lawyer is on board so one would think that Lawyer would have to develope angles and methods to help the client escape the DP sentence or why bother? I don't think the DP sentence is fairly applied within states that have it. That's a complicated subject.

On a lighter note, it cracked me up when I read that AL made a comment about female Prosecutors being men in highheels or something. Later someone wrote while describing AL that she 'distains' makeup. My thoughts are :waitasec:, if you're going to be on T.V. frequently, you should rethink that position. Hey, we all have our specialties!

sots, I don't know what your profession is but you sure bring a lot of excellent material to this forum that reaches beyond opinion and dare I say spouting off as many of us are prone to do :innocent:. I appreciate your posts.

BBM
Thank you for saying so. I do love reading opinions and share mine often. They are the very thing that foster discussion and debate. I just really enjoy getting to the "meat" of things....having something concrete to study and having something that can SHOW me "why".

 

[kaRN]

Just an idea to throw out here-perhaps AL (with the help of her mitigation investigator Jeanene Barret) saw up close that there was nothing redeeming about KC. I can't believe there was anything "fiscal" in her motivation to leave the case. A truly lame excuse if you feel someones life hangs in the balance IMO! However, she spent enough time (as did Jeanene B) around ICA and her family to see how this family operates now and in the past. I think this snip from her article in the Huffington Post is quite telling-
Fighting the Death Penalty: Hope for Change
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrea-lyon/fighting-the-death-penalt_b_630975.html
<snipped>
Once, I defended a young woman for killing the father who had been molesting her since she was five years old. Unfortunately, I made mistakes during the trial and I lost the case. At its conclusion, I rushed to reassure her that we would appeal. What did she say to me -- this young woman facing many many years in prison? "Are you okay? Are you all right to drive? I don't want you to be home alone tonight." She was more worried about me than about her own sad fate. Happily, I did get her conviction reversed on appeal, and we settled for time served in lieu of a new trial.

What this story demonstrates to me is that even people facing the most horrendous prospects are still capable of caring about someone other than themselves. Time and time again, I have seen incarcerated people find within themselves unexpected capacities. Some counsel younger inmates; some mediate family conflicts; many make a positive contribution to the world. And even those who have demonstrated total indifference to the lives of others can change. Redemption is possible. As long as there is life, even if it is a life in prison with no chance of parole, there is hope for change.

Yes, there may have been conflict within the defense team and maybe AL didn't want to lose her winning record. But, perhaps AL (with help from Jeanene) saw KC's true evil and the evidence and simply couldn't bear to be a part of defending KC!! Long shot-I know!! But, I'm using AL's theory for "change" on AL! :angel:

The bolded part is what I find most offensive really. A lot of Americans are suffering and dying without access to healthcare. Prisoners on the other hand receive it in a timely fashion. Timely life saving measures so that an incarcerated life, even if it is a life in prison with no chance of parole, has a hope for change....and health. They also have access to higher education do they not??
Caylee's life was the hope and promise of a cure for cancer or ALS or world peace. But there is no life there and so no hope. If her murderer passing a lifetime mediating family conflicts (hahahaha) or counseling younger inmates in AL's mind balances what we as a society have lost in the hope that was Caylee, then AL needs to spend some time on an Oncology unit or at an AIDS hospice.
And she needs to zip it IMO. Ethically she has a really lame argument but that's so OT I dare not go there

 

[kaRN]

Don't know if has come up yet in this thread but I wonder if KC ever mentioned having problems with her father and brother (as she mentions in her letters to the inmate) to AL's mediation specialist????? If not, could this be a big problem for KC????

I think the seeds of abuse were watered and nurtured by the mitigation specialist actually. I'm not sure the idea of penning them to a prison pen pal wasn't her idea either. Now there's an excuse for the family to not be visiting KC or her refusing them access to her. (how cynical am I )

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Does it really make a difference if prisoner was molested or not?

I don't see this as an excuse to murder an innocent child who has nothing to do with it, IMO...I see this as self serving to garner sympathy.

I was raised in an abusive household, I have never thought to take another's life. Instead, I left my home. I went out on my own, finished school, gotten my own apartment and raised three children. I made sure my children would never see physical abuse. I vowed to be a better parent...

If Inmate Anthony didn't like her present living conditions, she could have left. Instead, she hangs around since she's a mooch, had her expenses and Caylee's taken care of but at what cost??? If mother was too controlling, too domineering why stay??? Why not become a truely independant woman, be your own queen of the castle? Prisoner is too lazy, prisoner wants her cake and wanted to eat it as well. She didn't have to stay under Cindy's roost if she was that unhappy! It's not an excuse to kill....especially an innocent child! Justice for Caylee is coming....JMHO


Justice for Caylee

 

[LambChop]

I think the seeds of abuse were watered and nurtured by the mitigation specialist actually. I'm not sure the idea of penning them to a prison pen pal wasn't her idea either. Now there's an excuse for the family to not be visiting KC or her refusing them access to her. (how cynical am I )

I agree. It also explains why she does not want to see her parents. If she plans on blaming them for what happened to Caylee she can't very well see them and speak to them as if they were loving parents. jmo

 

[ZsaZsa]

I encourage you to visit the Mitigation thread. Mitigation is much "misunderstood". Many people think that mitigation is to serve as an excuse for the actions of the defendant. Mitigation is simply "offering an explanation about how the defendant got to the place that they did".

Mitigation does not argue why one did it. It simply offers a "glimpse" into the life of the defendant......as a way to show how damaged they are or what they have to offer now.

Mitigation does not excuse or justify a crime........it is a tool used to explain how that person got to the place where committing a crime occurred.

They are spending an inordinate amount of time money and effort regarding Mitigation, giving us a 'glimpse' of how Casey got that way.
My response to all that is 'Who cares ?'
Dictionary Definition of Mitigation- to act in such a way as to reduce the seriousness of an offense....

 

[texaslb218]

Maybe O/T
Does anyone remember Wolfie on another board. Wolfie is a mitigation specialist, I believe. I don't know if she still posts somewhere or not, but she would be an asset during the sentencing phase after a hoped-for guilty verdict.

Just send me a PM if I need to remove this post. Thanks

 

[Kentjbkent]

They are spending an inordinate amount of time money and effort regarding Mitigation, giving us a 'glimpse' of how Casey got that way.
My response to all that is 'Who cares ?'
Dictionary Definition of Mitigation- to act in such a way as to reduce the seriousness of an offense....

And if you go back and reread all the previously released jail visitor logs, you will notice that the defense has been spending an inordinate amount of time and money (while they still had it!) in mitigation efforts FOR A VERY LONG TIME....

Probably becauise that is all this defense team had going for them.....

 

[faefrost]

You know I really cannot see that there is anything Casey can use in mitigation if she is found guilty, I really think that if she is convicted that the judge / jury will have no choice but to sentence her to death.

She's a young attractive woman from a clearly and obviously utterly twisted and dysfunctional family. While you will not be making legal history or blazing new paths, simply getting a jury to be a tad squeamish about sentencing her to death should be a reasonably high probability. Far more so than some ethnic gang banger who knocked over a kwikimart. It should not take much mitigation or arguing to actually keep her off death row. (Yes I know we are deeply emotionally attached to this case around here. But juries are normally shy about sentancing this sort of defendant to death. The odds are sadly in her favor).

as far as AL not wanting to tarnish her winning record, or her not believing KC? That doesn't make sense for me. At least as a reason for leaving. AL counts wins as whether or not the client was sentenced to death. She cares nothing about guilt or innocence, and she really doesn't even come into play until after guilt is determined. So it would be way to early to declare this unwinable from her perspective. We all know KC will probably be found guilty. Personally I think the odds still favor the jury opting for LWOP.

So I keep coming back to the basic reason for an attorney to leave. The client or co-council is simply not listening to them. Sound legal advise is not being followed. (Sorry still not buying into the "finances" excuse).