2010.07.26 Grand Jury begins

[easttexas]

Also, with regard to Terri's friend, obviously she doesn't think Terri is guilty, so I doubt there was some explosive revelation about whatever they talked about on the phone that day. Terri talking to this girl only confirms another plot point on her timeline. We may not know what it is, but it's something else she did that day.

When I think about the GJ indicting Terri and a possible trial, I wonder:

How are they going to disprove that Terri drove baby K around too soothe her earache? They'll get some doctors and friends who say "Yes, in fact, driving a baby around while she's teething would be soothing." It's something that can't really be disproved.

Her pings don't quite match up? Experts, and a lot of them, to cast doubt on the exact science of cell pings, or Terri doesn't remember exactly where she was driving because she was worried about calming her daughter so maybe she did ping off that tower and didn't realize it. Suavie Island has been searched extensively, and LE found nothing.

What do the cell phones prove? Desiree has said she was suspicious of Terri from the first phone call. Houze will trot out some friend who tells some sad story about Terri not even being able to talk on her phone because everyone was so suspicious of her. All she wanted to do was find her son, she had no one to talk to, blah blah blah.

The sexts? IMHO, even though it's among the more supposedly damning evidence, it's also the easiest to explain. Trot out some expert who says Terri has low self-esteem and only feels self-worth when engaged sexually with a man. Lord help us if there is some revelation or accusation that Kaine was emotionally or otherwise abusive. Kaine left Terri, took the baby, accused her of something horrendous, Terri was grieving for her son, and voila, ugly coping. Everyone was pushing her to break, and she did, but not in the way anyone thought or hoped she would.

I just don't understand how they're going to indict her without witnesses seeing Kyron leave with her and without a body and without evidence that a murder even occurred.

Also, IMHO, if DS was going to reveal something explosive, she'd have done it by now and the case would've progressed in a mighty way (his body found, the bloody shovel, whatever). There has been plenty of time for immunity to be worked out, and yet Kyron hasn't been found.

Gets my vote for best post of the day. What I can't get around is that we have so many cases...high profile....that someone is being seemingly deceitful and it seemingly working to their advantage. Misty C is not smart enough to pull off what she has apparently pulled off. Then we have Susan Powell's husband, again, he seems not bright to me, yet...just playing dumb and poof he is living his life as he pleases. I just don't understand this case. If she is innocent then why can't they clear her and start looking for who did it? If she is innocent why isn't she giving them EVERY detail they need to clear her. If I were her...I would never have slept again....until my name was clear so they could proceed with investigating.

 

[nurseratchett]

Exactly.

No one saw Kyron leave with Terri, there's no evidence of a murder, and yet how likely is it that he's alive?

I honestly don't understand on what grounds they'll indict her. We KNOW there's no evidence of a murder. It's not as if there was a large area bleached inside the home or truck. Desiree and Kaine have asserted vehemently and often that they believe Kyron is alive. LE may be changing their story, but with the way in which Desiree and Kaine have openly accused Terri and yet in the next breath stated they don't believe Kyron is dead, well, somehow I believe Houze will work their statements to his benefit. All he'll need to do is replay the many press conferences in which Desiree and Kaine asserted that Terri abducted Kyron, and yet turn to the jury and say, "But not even they believe she could've killed him." Then he'll only have to create reasonable doubt with regard to the abduction, and if no one saw them leave together, then LE can trot out the sexts and Terri's bizarre behavior and her cell phones, but IMHO, it's not going to matter.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that Kaine, Desiree and Tony most definitely do believe she (TH) could have killed him. Saying one doesn't think someone is dead is a somewhat expected, and easily understood statement coming from parents of a 7 year old whose body hasn't been found.

 

[cluciano63]

I wonder how Desiree handled any questions, if there were any, about Kyron being alive, from GJ...I mean if LE is looking for a murder charge...can she admit the possibility? Somehow I don't think so.

LE and her husband will have to get her there at some point, I fear...I am really afraid he will never be found, I don't know why.

 

[Mamietwo]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that Kaine, Desiree and Tony most definitely do believe she (TH) could have killed him. Saying one doesn't think someone is dead is a somewhat expected, and easily understood statement coming from parents of a 7 year old whose body hasn't been found.

That plus having the news media hound you to death over your statement.

 

[easttexas]

Cindy Anthony still says she doesnt believe Caylee is dead even though she cleaned the car boot out herself that Caylee was in. Because they say they believe he is alive publically it doesnt mean that deep down they feel that way.

jmo

I do think that Desiree and Kaine believe that he is alive....I also think they have lots a nagging things that keep telling them he isn't but they choose to believe he is alive. My opinion is that it could be a coping mechanism so that they still have hope. Hope is powerful. Hope is life.

My opinion of Cindy, is she has an agenda. She doesn't really believe that Caylee is really alive. For Heaven's sake they have DNA proof that she is dead. Her agenda is that she has to spin the truth to not mar her perfect daughter. And of course, she is perfect cause Cindy raised her to be that way. MOO

Loved the boot comment. I worked with some people from England and they came to the states for meetings. One of them called me and said they had put their keys in the boot and needed a ride. I went to get him with a very puzzled mind and said where are your boots? I was so confused!!

 

[rnmif]

On the same basis she is allegedly happy to attempt to hire someone to kill her beloved daughter and step sons father. A guy who just a year or so ago said yes hes all that and a bag of chips.

And IMO she had plenty of time to compose herself. As its been said...Shes Like Ice...

JMO

If I saw any evidence that LE were actively pursuing that, I might give it more weight. But the last information we had seemed to indicate that it was not a terribly plausible bit of information.

As for the anti-freeze in her veins, I'm still having trouble reconciling frantic grieving Terri with heartless, murderous Terri. We've had some great examples of murderous females that we KNEW were guilty. Terri is about as far from their "type" as one can get.

 

[rnmif]

I just don't understand this case. If she is innocent then why can't they clear her and start looking for who did it? If she is innocent why isn't she giving them EVERY detail they need to clear her. If I were her...I would never have slept again....until my name was clear so they could proceed with investigating.

We have seen other cases where maybe LE were holding things close to the vest, and maybe didn't bother to clear up mistaken opinions in order to let a perp get a bit more overconfident.

 

[cypress]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that Kaine, Desiree and Tony most definitely do believe she (TH) could have killed him. Saying one doesn't think someone is dead is a somewhat expected, and easily understood statement coming from parents of a 7 year old whose body hasn't been found.

I was only hypothesizing about how Houze may spin it. Either way, IMHO, they'll use LE's, DY's, and KH's statements about Kyron being alive for Terri's defense. If there's no murder scene, no murder weapon, and no evidence of any kind that Kyron is dead, then the only thing that's changed between the first assertions of him being alive and now, is time. Nothing about statistical probabilities as it relates to the passage of time and Kyron's decreased chances for survival implicates Terri, though. If they (LE, DY, KH) believed and publicly asserted Kyron was alive after June 4, and Terri hasn't been out of LE's sights in all that time, then how are they going to support a murder indictment against her without any new evidence? Admit they were wrong? Based on what evidence? There's no evidence of a murder, IMHO, hence why Kaine and Desiree continue to assert that Kyron is alive.

 

[nurseratchett]

I wonder how Desiree handled any questions, if there were any, about Kyron being alive, from GJ...I mean if LE is looking for a murder charge...can she admit the possibility? Somehow I don't think so.

LE and her husband will have to get her there at some point, I fear...I am really afraid he will never be found, I don't know why.

Awwww cluciano, me too.... I have worried about this since the beginning. Living here, local, and going on hikes, to parks, just driving the back roads, I see far too many places a body could be hidden and not discovered for 20 years or more, or ever.

My theory, and hope, is that the accused trades this info in exchange for foregoing the death penalty option. I also think this is why LE has kept so much info extremely close to the vest in this case, crossing T's, and dotting I's...so that the death penalty is a plausible potential.

 

[TxLady2]

I've said this already, but this is really sounding like an investigative GR...did someone say whether or not they ever use them in Oregon?

Am anxious to hear if and when teachers and others from the school will start coming in, if they haven't already. Especially the little boy.

If you mean because of all the witnesses who are testifying, that is not at all uncommon. Some cases can be examined for months before they make a decision.
Actually, all GJ's would be investigative in nature, wouldn't they? They are trying to gather information to determine whether to indict or not. The rules are a little more relaxed in a grand jury, not like it is in trial. The questions they ask don't have to be relevant to the evidence, because they are just now hearing the evidence. They also want to be able to determine motive, and if any of these friends can shed some light on that... that's what they're there for. There could be 200 witnesses testify before it's all over.

 

[Calliope]

I keep hearing people posit about LE putting all their efforts into investigating TH, to the exclusion of any other possibility. There is no proof of that. I seem to remember massive searches around the school to see if Kyron wandered off, for example. Why would we assume that LE has not checked the whereabouts of all sex offenders in the area, have not interviewed every potential witness at the school, questioned everyone they could about possibly strangers, checked out all the family members etc.? We do know TH was not the only one polygraphed, just that her results probably did not help to clear her. But the point is, she was not the only one to be polygraphed.
I see not one thing that would allow me to question LE's investigation and/or that it has been a thorough one. Yes, the media reports show that the focus is no on TH but those reports do not show that no other possibility has been examined.
In general, LE tends to consider all possibilities, narrowing their focus as the facts they learn narrow the possibilities. I think that is what has happened here. JMO.

Does the prosecutor have to present (name) a suspect to the grand jury? The person he suspects of committing the crime? If not, how could they indorse an indictment?

 

[wondering1]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that Kaine, Desiree and Tony most definitely do believe she (TH) could have killed him. Saying one doesn't think someone is dead is a somewhat expected, and easily understood statement coming from parents of a 7 year old whose body hasn't been found.

Agreed...I don't think cross-examing anguished parents on their *belief* that their child might still be alive would be an effective defense strategy. But I'm not a criminal defense lawyer, so just moo.

 

[wondering1]

Does the prosecutor have to present (name) a suspect to the grand jury? The person he suspects of committing the crime? If not, how could they indorse an indictment?

Of course, they would have to know who the potential indictee was to consider the evidence,. Billie Lee??? Can you confirm?

 

[Calliope]

Of course, they would have to know who the potential indictee was to consider the evidence,. Billie Lee??? Can you confirm?

Well, that makes sense to me. Just curious given the response to my post. If LE was investigating other possible scenarios, the prosecutor wouldn't have convened the grand jury with Terri as the obvious target. In my I'm-not-an-attorney opinion, that is.

I just get a little concerned hearing of people calling in tips that (at least on the surface) appear worth a follow-up, yet have never heard back from LE. Maybe it's just a matter of LE needed a better system in place, I don't know. But I worry that if Terri isn't the one who took Kyron, the real perp is going to get away with this.

 

[wondering1]

Well, that makes sense to me. Just curious given the response to my post. If LE was investigating other possible scenarios, the prosecutor wouldn't have convened the grand jury with Terri as the obvious target. In my I'm-not-an-attorney opinion, that is.

I just get a little concerned hearing of people calling in tips that (at least on the surface) appear worth a follow-up, yet have never heard back from LE. Maybe it's just a matter of LE needed a better system in place, I don't know. But I worry that if Terri isn't the one who took Kyron, the real perp is going to get away with this.

I guess I'm assuming they're pursuing a dual course. LE is, of course, human. So it's possible they have tunnel vision. But it's not like they've focused on th just cause it's easy. She's done plenty to warrant their full attention, imo. I have no idea what LE does or does not have in the way of evidence, but I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the case is progressing the way it's progressing for a reason. For example, the lovely miss aleshire submits that they've got it all wrong. However, if she's an employee at the gym and saw terri and maybe baby k on june 4th, then her testimony is relevant, regardless of her enlightened opinion on the subject.

 

[Donjeta]

I sincerely hope that, even if LE are convinced that it is Terri and have a tunnel visionn as far as suspects go, they would look at any credible tips in their investigation anyway, even if they aren't about a redhead in a white pick-up. If for nothing else, to make the investigation complete and decrease the chances of her lawyer getting her off because there is reasonable doubt because all these tips were not checked out. And if she had an accomplice there might be relevant tips about suspicious activity by other persons which do not immediately look like they're about Terri directly.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Exactly.

No one saw Kyron leave with Terri, there's no evidence of a murder, and yet how likely is it that he's alive?

I honestly don't understand on what grounds they'll indict her. We KNOW there's no evidence of a murder. It's not as if there was a large area bleached inside the home or truck. Desiree and Kaine have asserted vehemently and often that they believe Kyron is alive. LE may be changing their story, but with the way in which Desiree and Kaine have openly accused Terri and yet in the next breath stated they don't believe Kyron is dead, well, somehow I believe Houze will work their statements to his benefit. All he'll need to do is replay the many press conferences in which Desiree and Kaine asserted that Terri abducted Kyron, and yet turn to the jury and say, "But not even they believe she could've killed him." Then he'll only have to create reasonable doubt with regard to the abduction, and if no one saw them leave together, then LE can trot out the sexts and Terri's bizarre behavior and her cell phones, but IMHO, it's not going to matter.

Above BBM. I am just going to put this out there as an example... The above BBM, "It's not as if there were a large area bleached in the home or truck."~end snip..
How do we know there was NOT an area such as, or similar to a "bleached area" found by LE?

We don't KNOW. KH and DY would CERTAINLY NOT share any type of info or evidence of this nature with the media.
So, there could be any numerous items of evidence that we have NO CLUE even exists, much less the details of what and where such evidence were located..

gitana reminded of something that I too had lost sight of when voting on what if any indictments I thought would be handed down from the GJ. I stated that how wide of a spectrum of Terri's guilt or innocence is between all of us here, and that I could only imagine how difficult it would even be for jurors to come to a joint decision of GUILT or NOT... She reminded me of the crucial point that as a juror we would be privy to so very much more evidence than what we have here in this forum to work with, thus the coming to a joint decision would be much "easier" for the vast majority to agree upon...

My point being that we don't know much of anything. So IMO its very likely that LE has some very damning or compelling(however u choose to look at it)evidence(much like the example given above about the "bleached area" could very well be) that would much more accurately depict Terri's Guilt or Innocence...

 

[nurseratchett]

I sincerely hope that, even if LE are convinced that it is Terri and have a tunnel visionn as far as suspects go, they would look at any credible tips in their investigation anyway, even if they aren't about a redhead in a white pick-up. If for nothing else, to make the investigation complete and decrease the chances of her lawyer getting her off because there is reasonable doubt because all these tips were not checked out. And if she had an accomplice there might be relevant tips about suspicious activity by other persons which do not immediately look like they're about Terri directly.

ITA

I believe that prosecuting attorneys, DA Mike Schrunk, Norm Frink, etc. are familiar enough with Mr Houzes court room style that they have definitely looked at other tips and given them due credence. I'm certain they know that Houze will request a record of all those tips and LE's evidence that they paid due diligence and investigated them appropriately. I have confidence that the DA has many sharp minds working on this and looking at all angles.

I do know that Norm Frink is a proponent of the Death Penalty, and is purported to believe it is a useful tool in prosecution, as noted here:

"As Deputy Multnomah County DA Norman Frink contends, it is the threat of the death penalty that actually brings some sense to a defendant, usually leading him to plead guilty...........

.......More practically, however, Deputy Frink has argued for anew use of the death penalty law: either as an actual or a threatened punishment. "

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...norm+frink&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=hp


My opinion at least....

 

[froginTtown]

Just jumping in here quick, still catching up... but I'm very happy to see that they are calling more than 1 or two witnesses a day... I think that I read that the judge ordered all media off the upper floors of the courthouse until Aug. 11th. I also think that I read that the parents are the first of a long line of witnesses coming in to testify...What I'm confused about is why DS is coming back at a later date...perhaps she is working a deal for immunity... Just my opinion....

 

[LadyL]

I watched the clip on Fox 12, and how they reported it is that she only talked to TH that
day and has not talked to her since.
She did have a message for TH, that she is praying for her and her family..
(not an exact quote but that was the general idea)

I can't imagine a protective friend not talking to her since that day. Either the reporting's off or the friendship is. I vote reporting.

ETA: just noticed that she is a gym employee (?) so perhaps not such a good friend to begin with which makes it more plausible that she hasn't talked to her since June 4