2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[krisskross]

Last night I searched for Vass on FB. What I got is just an info page which links a wiki page..it obviously is NOT Vass's FB page. Anyone should be able to tell that. As if Vass put the page on there himself and linked a Wiki page he wrote for himself. Duh!! He looked surprised that there was this stuff about him!!

Is this what Jeremiah Lyons is getting $40.00 an hour for. What else was on that CD.:maddening: If you can't attack the testimony .......... attack the witness. I'm sure this will be a theme we'll see ad nausem at trial.

 

[SkeeterWI]

On WFTV, the 6th segment of the video from yesterday has sound from the 5th part. I've emailed them and asked them to fix it, but they haven't yet. Does anyone know if a video of the entire hearing is posted somewhere else online? I'd really like to watch that portion.

thanks in advance.

This has been fixed now on WFTV.

 

[strawberry]

The instrument Dr. Vass is using to determine decomp was used at the Barker ranch referred to as the Manson ranch (couple years ago) and got positive readings that led investigators to believe there were bodies buried there. Well, they never found any after doing extensive excavation. I read about it in the news at the time so I remember most of it. This was considered an environmental dig though is what Dr. Vass was trying to explain to JB unlike the car trunk where the variables (contamination) were known/unknown. There's no way to know if the equipment was faulty like JB is trying to prove because for all we know there were 100 dead buffalo there 100 years ago. I hope that makes sense. I understood what Dr. Vass was explaining.

Thank you. That does make sense. I remember them excavating the ranch as well.

 

[Ada]

JB's concern that Vass stood to make a lot of money on his 'sniffer' lead me to believe that it must be a credible way to test the air. Otherwise, no one would buy it and he wouldn't make any money. Was JB telling us that the 'sniffer' would be purchased by LE all over the nation? Must be pretty good, IMO.

 

[TallyHo]

Last night I searched for Vass on FB. What I got is just an info page which links a wiki page..it obviously is NOT Vass's FB page. Anyone should be able to tell that. As if Vass put the page on there himself and linked a Wiki page he wrote for himself. Duh!! He looked surprised that there was this stuff about him!!

Even my 13 year old 8th grader is not allowed by his school to use Wikipedia as a source for any research papers he does!! :banghead:

 

[LCoastMom]

Dr. Vass' testimony has got me thinking about the chloroform found in the bottle with the syringe where Caylee's body was found. He says that the amounts of chloroform detected in the air samples of the trunk were 10,000 times more than a decomposing body... which sounds like a HUGE amount of chloroform (I could be wrong about that).

With that said... what if Casey injected Caylee with the chloroform? When the body started to decompose could the chloroform that was in Caylee's system have caused these high levels of chloroform?

I just don't see how Casey could have spilled chloroform in the car without being overcome herself? So I am wondering that if Chloroform was in Caylee's system... could it have been released once she started to decompose? I really hope this makes some kind of sense?

I will go back and read up on the bottle found near Caylee's remains that tested positive for Chloroform, but could Casey have just slightly unscrewed the bottle enough to get what she needed out of it with the syringe, put the top back on, and then inject Caylee... then she would again quickly unscrew the top and shove the syringe inside and close it off again.

IDK about the trunk levels if she injected Caylee - I would imagine because the body would have metabolized the chloroform the levels would not be so high, nor the sample so pure.

I think as long as she poured the liquid in a well ventilated area she may have been able to apply it to an item or items without putting herself out.

I still haven't come to terms with the chloroform and duct tape because we know she is lazy and either one or the other would have gotten the job done. Let's say she poured some on a pillow or blanket (in her room) and put Caylee out, she then applied the tape (I hope Caylee was out for this). Why use more chloroform in the car? The tape would have prevented it from making a difference...

The air levels are very interesting I hope we learn more, like how much chloroform they're are talking about to have such high levels weeks after the fact!

 

[Amil]

I agree, the potential penalty in this case is probably going to factor into Judge Perry's decision. He also might take into account the additional/alternative evidence that supports the State's theory.

I do however foresee a day when this method of establishing human decomp and PMI will be widely accepted. Right now, not enough folk are choosing to research human decomposition as it relates to the chemicals/ gases the body produces post mortem.

As for the chloroform, volatile fatty acids from the stain and the SMELL, I think Dr Vass will be an awsome witness.

IMO the penalty phase of this case and the additional evidence available to the prosecution have nothing to do with a decision of whether science is thought to be valid. It is either thought to be valid or not by the Frye hearing and what is brought out in testimony.

 

[Caligram]

Yes, but I don't think he's going to treat Casey as anything special. Death is not that different. I get tired of hearing that. This isn't all that new anyway. The way Vass explained it, I think it has a good chance of coming in. I also think HHJP has done his own research on it. He will be basing his ruling on that and the law, not the specialness of this case, which isn't all that special at all anyway.

Honestly, if he were basing it off of the defense's pathetic and lackluster performance, this would be denied already. All the defense has to hold onto is that death is special for some reason I can't understand. There's nothing special about a mother killing her child and throwing her out like trash. Casey shouldn't be treated as anything but the murdering sociopath she is.

BBM - I also am sick of haring that "death is different" phrase. Like it entitles ICA to special treatment. BS....simply BS. I want JA or LDB to counter that next utterance with "We absolutely agree that "death is different". It certainly was for little Caylee Marie, and she is the reason why we are holding this trial today".

 

[Oakley]

Last night I searched for Vass on FB. What I got is just an info page which links a wiki page..it obviously is NOT Vass's FB page. Anyone should be able to tell that. As if Vass put the page on there himself and linked a Wiki page he wrote for himself. Duh!! He looked surprised that there was this stuff about him!!

BBM Wait a minute! I'm experiencing deja vu. Wasn't it just recently we heard about some shenanigans involving another pro prosecution person having a web page linked in order to embarrass or discredit them? :waitasec:

 

[LCoastMom]

BBM Wait a minute! I'm experiencing deja vu. Wasn't it just recently we heard about some shenanigans involving another pro prosecution person having a web page linked in order to embarrass or discredit them? :waitasec:

Yep, but I looked at Dr Voss' and it is actually quite nice by WIKI standards, complete with accurate links (they are all several years old) including one that names him as one of the Top Ten Scientists . Even the Wiki page looked too good to be a Baez product...

http://businesstn.com/content/top-ten-scientists

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D., is a research chemist scientist and forensic anthropologist based at the Life Sciences Division of Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also adjunct associate professor of Forensic Anthropology, a program of the University of Tennessee's Law Enforcement Innovation Center located in Knoxville, Tennessee.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpad_Vass"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpad_Vass[/ame]



The FB page is suspect I agree!

ETA:
The article on Wiki was written July 5, 2008 as seen on the "History".

 

[Oakley]

Yep, but I looked at Dr Voss' and it is actually quite nice by WIKI standards, complete with accurate links (they are all several years old) including one that names him as one of the Top Ten Scientists . Even the Wiki page looked too good to be a Baez product...

http://businesstn.com/content/top-ten-scientists

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D., is a research chemist scientist and forensic anthropologist based at the Life Sciences Division of Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also adjunct associate professor of Forensic Anthropology, a program of the University of Tennessee's Law Enforcement Innovation Center located in Knoxville, Tennessee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpad_Vass



The FB page is suspect I agree!

BBM Very interesting, LCoastMom. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ClockWatcher]

For all of the Arpad Vass admirers, here is an interesting article about him from two years ago:

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/14/death-detector/

And for any gamers...he plays Portal :loveyou:

 

[mobius99]

I've finally watched the entire testimony of Dr. Vass. I'm totally spent. Just like Dr. Vass in Part 7 towards the end of his testimony (and one of my favorite exchanges).

JB is going on and on about the trash the trash! Dr. Vass is laboring to explain how trash has to be accounted for based on the context of a situation (ie trash in the car as part of the scene vs trash randomly collected outside).

Not verbatim:

JB:Trash can give a false positive in one case but not in another?
Dr.Vass (clearly at his wits end): I don't even know how to answer that question. (throws up his hands) I..em..ur..just don't know how to answer that.

The look on poor Dr. Vass' face is priceless. Complete exasperation. It was the look of a man trying to explain how it's impossible to spit an atom with a machete.

Oh, and if you listen closely you can hear JA having a chuckle.

 

[kaRN]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread. I just finished watching the testimony of Dr Vass for the first time and wanted to (((((scream))))) say a few things
First off, why didn't the DT scientific shred the Dr guru aka DCS cross examine this witness? Wasn't she the one who submitted whatever she submitted, late as per course, at the last hearing regarding air testing or Frye on yellow lined paper?
Why was she there if not to take on the forensics??? Does JB need a DP qualified babysitter during preliminary hearings too?

Who does JB think he is questioning the ethics of someone like Dr Vass? Especially while he's under investigation by his Bar for discretions that could have him disbarred. It was surreal to watch him attempt to suggest that an instrument that was never used in this case, may earn Dr Vass a shared portion of a 15% royalty after 20+ years of accumulated work and testing has gone into it. This from the media w**re with 3 years experience who can't manage his parking tickets. Pompous puffed up....never mind.
Unless Universities work very differently in the US than they do in Canada, it is the University that would own any patent, not the individual researcher employed there. He is being offered a share of royalties and rightly so.
If Dr Vass was ever motivated to get rich, he probably wouldn't have selected to develop expertise in the chemical components of human decomposition working in a University Lab. He'd be working for DuPont on new and improved penile implants and earning several million per year before profit sharing IMHO. What I saw was a man driven by the joy of scientific discovery loyal to the people who have allowed him to engage in his passion while his family grew.

I really don't understand why any of the DT cross examination was allowed today. JB didn't even have the grace to greet Dr Vass. I have no idea what purpose DCS serves except to answer ICA's questions. I'm just at a loss.
I will say this.....in my world, a Doctor with 3 years experience in general surgery would never be allowed to hone craniotomy skills on a living patient ever, let alone while neurosurgeons napped in the corner or played with their laptops. ICA should snap out of her paralegal fantasy world long enough to absorb whats happening around her before her chance at pleading for her sad life is over.
moo

Dr Vass is an amazing witness. I actually understood everything he explained right up until JB started up and even then I still understood Dr Vass

 

[pip]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread. I just finished watching the testimony of Dr Vass for the first time and wanted to (((((scream))))) say a few things
First off, why didn't the DT scientific shred the Dr guru aka DCS cross examine this witness? Wasn't she the one who submitted whatever she submitted, late as per course, at the last hearing regarding air testing or Frye on yellow lined paper?
Why was she there if not to take on the forensics??? Does JB need a DP qualified babysitter during preliminary hearings too?

Who does JB think he is questioning the ethics of someone like Dr Vass? Especially while he's under investigation by his Bar for discretions that could have him disbarred. It was surreal to watch him attempt to suggest that an instrument that was never used in this case, may earn Dr Vass a shared portion of a 15% royalty after 20+ years of accumulated work and testing has gone into it. This from the media w**re with 3 years experience who can't manage his parking tickets. Pompous puffed up....never mind.
Unless Universities work very differently in the US than they do in Canada, it is the University that would own any patent, not the individual researcher employed there. He is being offered a share of royalties and rightly so.
If Dr Vass was ever motivated to get rich, he probably wouldn't have selected to develop expertise in the chemical components of human decomposition working in a University Lab. He'd be working for DuPont on new and improved penile implants and earning several million per year before profit sharing IMHO. What I saw was a man driven by the joy of scientific discovery loyal to the people who have allowed him to engage in his passion while his family grew.

I really don't understand why any of the DT cross examination was allowed today. JB didn't even have the grace to greet Dr Vass. I have no idea what purpose DCS serves except to answer ICA's questions. I'm just at a loss.
I will say this.....in my world, a Doctor with 3 years experience in general surgery would never be allowed to hone craniotomy skills on a living patient ever, let alone while neurosurgeons napped in the corner or played with their laptops. ICA should snap out of her paralegal fantasy world long enough to absorb whats happening around her before her chance at pleading for her sad life is over.
moo

Dr Vass is an amazing witness. I actually understood everything he explained right up until JB started up and even then I still understood Dr Vass

Great post! Could only hit thanks once, so here's a few more very deserved thanks....
Pip Pip Pip Pip

 

[kaRN]

I've finally watched the entire testimony of Dr. Vass. I'm totally spent. Just like Dr. Vass in Part 7 towards the end of his testimony (and one of my favorite exchanges).

JB is going on and on about the trash the trash! Dr. Vass is laboring to explain how trash has to be accounted for based on the context of a situation (ie trash in the car as part of the scene vs trash randomly collected outside).

Not verbatim:

JB:Trash can give a false positive in one case but not in another?
Dr.Vass (clearly at his wits end): I don't even know how to answer that question. (throws up his hands) I..em..ur..just don't know how to answer that.

The look on poor Dr. Vass' face is priceless. Complete exasperation. It was the look of a man trying to explain how it's impossible to spit an atom with a machete.

Oh, and if you listen closely you can hear JA having a chuckle.

I'm trying to grasp what benefit the defense gains by drawing comparisons to the Manson case anyway. :loser:

 

[mobius99]

I'm trying to grasp what benefit the defense gains by drawing comparisons to the Manson case anyway. :loser:

KaRN, don't waste your strength. There is none. Dr. Vass gave a valiant effort and he couldn't do it. The word obtuse come to mind?

 

[strach304]

IDK about the trunk levels if she injected Caylee - I would imagine because the body would have metabolized the chloroform the levels would not be so high, nor the sample so pure.

I think as long as she poured the liquid in a well ventilated area she may have been able to apply it to an item or items without putting herself out.

I still haven't come to terms with the chloroform and duct tape because we know she is lazy and either one or the other would have gotten the job done. Let's say she poured some on a pillow or blanket (in her room) and put Caylee out, she then applied the tape (I hope Caylee was out for this). Why use more chloroform in the car? The tape would have prevented it from making a difference...

The air levels are very interesting I hope we learn more, like how much chloroform they're are talking about to have such high levels weeks after the fact!

My opinion I posted a few pages back suggests that Casey found out while researching how to make chloroform that she found out the effects only last approx. 15 mins. Going way back I theorized the duct tape was used to hold in place chloroform saturated cloth (paper towels, etc.) over Caylee's nose and mouth. Naturally there would be no evidence of paper towels after all that time in the environment. Keep in mind we're talking about Casey. In Casey's mind she may have assumed that would keep Caylee sedated if there was a constant feed of the drug. The effects would not wear off in 15 minutes. I would not be one damn bit surprised if the idea of suffocation from the tape never occurred to her. It also explains why she was never truthful about any of it. The truth really is that bad, worse than what some were thinking at the time. As if that wasn't bad enough she proceeded to dump her child like trash. She knew she couldn't take LE to the body because of what they would find.

 

[mobius99]

Okay, I know some of you may think I'm nuts. But I have always had it in the back of my head that KC may even have tested on CA's dogs. In CA's deposition she's trying to explain why the chloroform search was easily an error on her part when she was looking up the effects of chlorophyll on her dogs. She goes on to mention that one of them is always sleeping, but then clarifies that she's come to know that just his/her nature. Hmmm...always found that a little suspicious.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

BBM - I also am sick of haring that "death is different" phrase. Like it entitles ICA to special treatment. BS....simply BS. I want JA or LDB to counter that next utterance with "We absolutely agree that "death is different". It certainly was for little Caylee Marie, and she is the reason why we are holding this trial today".

It syncs up well with Baez unsupported and bizarre assertion that this case is somehow astoundingly unique. It certainly seems to dazzle him every which way, but it's just another mom murdering her child and it is an ugly thing that happens hundreds of times a year, if not more. Casey isn't special. The family isn't special. Never has been nor will be.