4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #83

[schooling]

YOUR QUOTE:
"OR maybe part of me enjoys playing devil's advocate."

I can play devil's advocate too.

MAYBE in all this evidence there is nothing to tie BK to 4 homicides:

51 terabytes of information that includes thousands of pages of discovery, thousands of photographs, hundreds of hours of recordings, many gigabytes of electronic phone records and social media data.

Maybe it's someone else's car that is seen dozens of times on dozens of videos,
maybe it's someone else's phone pinging dozens of times back and forth to the crime scene,
maybe a man who looks similar to BK did it,
maybe someone else dropped a knife sheath in the bed - that "just happens" to have BK's DNA on it.

Maybe the 100's of Search Warrants didn't turn up any incriminating evidence against BK:

No incriminating purchases.
No incriminating online searches.
No Social Media ties to any of the victims or to their family or friends.

Maybe all these criminal investigators missed the real killer and the real killer is still "out there."

Assistant Chief - Washington State University Police Department
Idaho State Police (ISP)
Idaho State Police Forensics Services
Idaho State Police Detectives
Moscow Police Department Officers (MPD)
WSU Police
FBI Agents
FBI Forensic Examiner - 35 years with LE and 12 years with the FBI
Moscow Police Department Sergeant - 22 years with previous homicide investigations
Latah County Sheriff's Deputy Corporal (CPL)
Technical Specialists from all LE organizations
Technical Specialist in digital devices
Technical Specialist in digital media

Cell Site Location Information (CSLI)
Cellular Analysis Survey Team (CAST)
Idaho State Crime Lab
Othram (Genetics)

I wish I could just quote this in my sig.

Lovely way to go into the weekend.

 

[Megnut]

On another topic, in response to the question on why BK would have knowingly driven his own car on the night of the murders, and JMO...

I don't think BK cared overmuch about his car being captured on video going by video cameras that night, because he went to a lot of effort ahead of time to thwart LE in being able to easily identify his car.

Nor do I think he was worried about his face being seen.

And he was right not to worry too much, because LE never got his face on camera nor a shot of his license plate, AFAIK, and had to go to some effort to identify the white sedan as his car in another way, in the end.

Those white sedans are ubiquitous.

There was no front plate and the back plate could have been obscured. It could have been muddy as OP pointed out a ways back on this thread.

There's a dark tinted plastic convex cover that goes over a license plate so the numbers/letters can't easily be seen to the naked eye that I've seen on cars with Quebec license plates, I guess it's a thing there. And I think I heard LE tried to have them banned, and they lost, so people still drive around with their license plate obscured by a dark tinted cover. So the point is there are a number of ways to obscure a license plate.

The image of a car going by in the dark is inherently very blurry from what I saw of images of the white sedan early on.

His car could also have tin win (dark tinted windows) that would make it difficult to see who was driving no less be able to identify them. I don't recall if his Elantra had tin win, but if so, it's yet another factor at play that would have obscured identification of him as the driver.

IIRC, the FBI had an entire team dedicated to reviewing video footage, and their top expert in the country at identifying makes and models of vehicles from video reviewing thousands of hours of video.

That was some dedicated manpower, and it still took them awhile to narrow it down to an Elantra, and even then, IIRC, LE said there were 18,000 or so white Elantras registered in Idaho when they started their search.

And at the time BK's wasn't even registered in Idaho but PA, so id'ing his vehicle was even more like finding a needle in a haystack.

Which, IIRC, they were only finally able to do, by going to an out-of-state university's campus security or police, and asking them to search for white Elantras registered to one of several thousand students.

So even if his car was recorded going by, turning around, etc. that night, "here, there, and everywhere", (coming and going from Moscow and Pullman and their neighborhood) that whole set of circumstances would make it extremely difficult for them to identify one of many random white cars as his car, which IMO, he knew full well.

Just like keeping his phone with him was I think like a security blanket for him so he disabled tracking and turned it on and off instead of leaving it at home, he needed the security of driving his own car so he obscured it as much as possible from being easily identified.

In both cases, he took his chances, and bet against the odds, and lost.

Or maybe he wanted to get caught, but didn't want to make it easy, as in catch me if you can.

JMO

This is really well reasoned.

May I go one step further? I don't think this was a pre-planned mass murder: I am convinced it was a pre-planned single murder. And had it been a single murder, it may have followed in his (studied in crime) mind that it would be investigated but surely not with the vigor of a mass murder. Many murderers make this miscalculation. They underestimate the effort LE and families and the media will go to discover the truth and exact justice.

I will go on record (in the record of my mind) to say that this was a case of intimate partner homicide, the only difference is that one party was entirely unaware of the "partnership", a partnership that existed only in the fantasy world of the other.

I don't know why he brought his phone to Moscow or why he disabled it in some fashion where he did (if it was to create the illusion of an alibi, why not turn it off and leave it at a likely running path and pick it back up there after a fake run, buying time off the grid?) but I do think he felt invisible and invincible. I think he had decades to master stealth. I think he found his white sedan to be as generic as could be, beyond notice.

Hotbed of a college town, crime of passion, LE would be busy looking at every jilted collegiate jock...

IMO that's why he didn't plan better. He didn't think he'd ever be found out. Virtually no connection to the victim.

Virtually. Oh, the irony. Digital trails become runway lights for investigators.

So does leaving DNA behind. The sheath might have been his calling card too, as it appears he wiped it nearly free of DNA. Let LE go down some military wormhole.

Forgive me for venturing into the mind of someone like this, but I think the (ill) logic might have gone something like this: I see her. I find out where she lives. I stalk her. Silently. She has no idea how close I've gotten or even what I may have klepted of hers. She's exactly the kind of girl who thinks she's too good for me. But I can get any girl I want. I'll show her. As well, I'll make her pay. I'll make her pay for all girls. I'll make her pay for all guys too, the idiots who get girls like this.

If he had one target, was in and out in under a minute, hadn't left that whiff of DNA, we might've seen a very different investigative approach, one that may have left him well outside the scope of it for a very, very long time. Long enough that IMO he might've felt slighted by another woman, imagined or otherwise, and somewhere near that campus or another, another headline...

JMO

 

[Idaho transplant]

IIRC, BK's car had no front license plate since PA doesn't require both a front and rear plate. But Idaho does require both front and rear plates. (I think that is what I read earlier on.) If that is the case, then maybe this would have narrowed the list of white Elantra's identified.

On the subject of PA and ID, was Kohberger considered a resident of PA or ID at the time of the murders? I don't mean just where he currently resided. Does it matter either way?

 

[maskedwoman]

On the subject of PA and ID, was Kohberger considered a resident of PA or ID at the time of the murders? I don't mean just where he currently resided. Does it matter either way?

I think having an ID plate meant he was a resident of Idaho. MOOooo

 

[schooling]

SFF

I think the problem is that our waffling (mine anyway) stems from not believing someone with his educational background in criminology can possibly be THAT stupid. Therefore, we (I) look for alternative reasoning. MOO. I say "I" because I can't speak for anyone else.

I know a nurse practitioner, top of her undergrad class at one of the countries best 4 year programs. Did well in her masters (as far as I know). Brilliant medical professional. I’d trust her with my life inside of a hospital. Inside of that environment.

On the flip side

Socially awkard….clumsy…doesnt understand satire or sarcasm or ‘getting the joke’, most woosh over her head, barely keeps up with the news, behind on tech advancement, no pop culture, simple concepts outside of nursing escape her.

Some people have both. Many don’t.

 

[NCWatcher]

I think having an ID plate meant he was a resident of Idaho. MOOooo

Well, if that's the rule, then he was not an ID resident at the time of the murders. He registered his car in ID after the murders but didn't receive his plates until December per the PCA. I'm not sure it really matters though as the murders were in ID.
JMO

 

[ForensicToxicologist]

On the subject of PA and ID, was Kohberger considered a resident of PA or ID at the time of the murders? I don't mean just where he currently resided. Does it matter either way?

I think having an ID plate meant he was a resident of Idaho. MOOooo

I believe he was actually a resident of Washington and had just switched to Washington plates.

 

[rainbowshummingbird]

True,but his brother turned him in. I'm not sure if they would have caught him without that.

Showing his writings to his brother and SIL was a mistake on his part.

 

[Sundog]

On the subject of PA and ID, was Kohberger considered a resident of PA or ID at the time of the murders? I don't mean just where he currently resided. Does it matter either way?

I don't think BK had established residency in WA state at the time of the murders, I think he was still a resident of PA. IIRC, he registered his car in WA state just after the murders, thus establishing his residency in WA at that time.
He was never a resident of Idaho.

 

[marypretzels]

Agreed they are all black New Balance, tied pretty tightly which keeps us from getting more detail of the top of the shoe. As a shoe person myself, I would call them Dad Shoes.

Oh my! I have two pair of black New Balance shoes in my closet right now. They are both more than five years old. I guess you could call them Grandma shoes too. I must take a closer look at them.

 

[maskedwoman]

Well, if that's the rule, then he was not an ID resident at the time of the murders. He registered his car in ID after the murders but didn't receive his plates until December per the PCA. I'm not sure it really matters though as the murders were in ID.
JMO

True, but you have to establish residency before you can register a car. You are supposed to get an Idaho DL after 90 days and you have to provide:

Proof of Idaho Residency

• Lease/rental agreement, mortgage or deed.
• Account statement from one or two different public utilities. ...
• Account statement from bank or financial institution.
• Tax document Form W-2 or Form-1099 (may be the same document used in Step 3 above if dated within current year)

Star Card | Idaho Transport

To be a resident for tax purposes is different:

Resident. If you: Keep a home in Idaho for the entire tax year and spend more than 270 days of the year in Idaho; or. Are domiciled in Idaho for the entire tax year.

Residency Status

ISTC informs taxpayers about their obligations so everyone can pay their fair share of taxes, & enforces Idaho’s laws to ensure the fairness of the tax system.

tax.idaho.gov

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

True, but you have to establish residency before you can register a car. You are supposed to get an Idaho DL after 90 days and you have to provide:

Proof of Idaho Residency

• Lease/rental agreement, mortgage or deed.
• Account statement from one or two different public utilities. ...
• Account statement from bank or financial institution.
• Tax document Form W-2 or Form-1099 (may be the same document used in Step 3 above if dated within current year)

Star Card | Idaho Transport

To be a resident for tax purposes is different:

Resident. If you: Keep a home in Idaho for the entire tax year and spend more than 270 days of the year in Idaho; or. Are domiciled in Idaho for the entire tax year.

Residency Status

ISTC informs taxpayers about their obligations so everyone can pay their fair share of taxes, & enforces Idaho’s laws to ensure the fairness of the tax system.

tax.idaho.gov

BK was never a resident of ID. He didn't live or go to school in ID. Anyway, most states, including ID, make concessions for students. They are not required to switch their driver's license or car registration over unless they want to claim residency. Otherwise, they're fine.

"NOTE: You do not need an ID driver's license if you're only in Idaho temporarily to attend college/university or to fulfill your military obligations."

Moving

Moving to Idaho? Find information regarding jobs, licenses, and more.

www.idaho.gov

 

[Cool Cats]

SFF

I think the problem is that our waffling (mine anyway) stems from not believing someone with his educational background in criminology can possibly be THAT stupid. Therefore, we (I) look for alternative reasoning. MOO. I say "I" because I can't speak for anyone else.

Running on his emotions leaving out common sense.

Wow, that's a lot (this may be too, so skip to the last bit if you're not a fan of details).

Okay, I'll say it: the number of people (in general) who declare, as though fact, (with IMOs, JMOs & MOOs thrown in for good measure) that they know Bryan Kohberger is the murderer and the only assailant involved with this case, is to me said with unfathomable confidence.

The regular narrative of "they have more evidence," is often said with the assumption that every piece of forensic evidence, interview, and video looked at since the PCA was written points to one person as the murderer. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that some of that 51 terabytes is neutral, and some of it unrelated to the case (e.g., personal info of people unearthed while looking for connections to the victims) and some of it TBD because they're trying to determine if it pertains at all.

Mistakes happen (2011 Elantra anyone?); LE is not infallible and most don't claim to be ; If they were, no innocent person would ever be arrested, let alone end up in prison.

We're all here to discuss the crime, introduce theories and "sleuth" to determine what we can, especially with a case with so little info. available. And yes, there are numerous things that could connect the dots to BK; if those dots do connect; it does not look good for BK--at all. They may look just as bad or worse when we know more of the evidence. That being said, as others and I have already pointed out, some of those things could be unravelled to nothing. That' pat of what makes this case interesting to dig into.

The important bit for those who skipped ahead: For anyone who is adamant that BK is guilty, I do understand that this forum is not a court, so anyone can presume guilty trial or no trial!

However, please keep in mind that those of us who are not ready to throw away the keys to the prison, do not have to be BK apologists, (I'm not), firm that he is innocent (not that either), incompetent (not last I checked) or uninformed (not about anything I choose to post about!). It just means we want to read about that "more evidence" we know is out there--to see who or what it points to without assuming one way or another.

JMO, or course.

I am not seeing what you see as to the discussions on here.
I'm not seeing people posting that BK is guilty for sure. No one is "throwing away the key" to his cell that I know of.

It's simple fact:

There is an unusual amount of evidence against just one defendant so early in the investigation that many think he looks guilty but most seem to understand he is presumed innocent right now and prosecutors need to prove his guilt to the jury.

That is if he doesn't plead guilty, and he probably will plead guilty to avoid the DP if he is charged with it.

If anything, BK is getting a better defense and fairer trial than the average defendant gets. Idaho is "bending over backwards" for this defendant. Unusually good defense so far, extra top lawyers added, lots of Motions filed on his behalf, sweeping gag order to preserve his rights to fair trial.

He is being provided with a nice suit for court, not just a regular shirt.
He even gets a private cell with his own TV and vegan meals.

2 Cents

 

[10ofRods]

If you haven't seen the twitter thread about the guy putting the orange in his mouth, you should look it up. People with a lot of higher education and very clever brains can make really, really ridiculous choices, and can have and act on ideas that on reflection, and in the aftermath, seem ludicrous. (Look for username micefearboggis.)

You can give a human being a bunch of letters after their name, but they're still a human being. The species who decided to bond with some of the most vicious predators out there (wolves and cats), and ate dairy products until we evolved to not be made violently ill by them, because we really wanted to eat cheese.

MOO

I have a long list of highly educated people who have committed bizarre crimes (and gotten caught). I suppose we could start with Elizabeth Holmes. But we also have Ted Bundy.

And Michael Peterson. And Dr. Death. And the nurse currently on trial, followed closely here on Websleuths (IMO, nurses and doctors get much more training - both intellectual and practical - than the typical criminologist).

There is a list of physician who are serial killers (and of course, then there are the Jeffrey McDonald family annihilator ones).

A graduate student in theoretical mathematics at my own university killed his dissertation advisor in cold blood, with little attempt to cover up anything - he just got increasingly frantic and angry and lost it. Bludgeoned his advisor to death, apparently with some spontaneity.

Kohberger is in that group. Murderers cross-cut all social categories.

IMO (I'll close with Harold Frederick Shipman, Jr. 250 murders and a physician).

 

[NCWatcher]

BK was never a resident of ID. He didn't live or go to school in ID. Anyway, most states, including ID, make concessions for students. They are not required to switch their driver's license or car registration over unless they want to claim residency. Otherwise, they're fine.

"NOTE: You do not need an ID driver's license if you're only in Idaho temporarily to attend college/university or to fulfill your military obligations."

Moving

Moving to Idaho? Find information regarding jobs, licenses, and more.

www.idaho.gov

Exactly! Mentally I read ID as WA in the question. Think several of us did. Glad you caught that!

True, but you have to establish residency before you can register a car. You are supposed to get an Idaho DL after 90 days and you have to provide:

Proof of Idaho Residency

• Lease/rental agreement, mortgage or deed.
• Account statement from one or two different public utilities. ...
• Account statement from bank or financial institution.
• Tax document Form W-2 or Form-1099 (may be the same document used in Step 3 above if dated within current year)

Star Card | Idaho Transport

To be a resident for tax purposes is different:

Resident. If you: Keep a home in Idaho for the entire tax year and spend more than 270 days of the year in Idaho; or. Are domiciled in Idaho for the entire tax year.

Residency Status

ISTC informs taxpayers about their obligations so everyone can pay their fair share of taxes, & enforces Idaho’s laws to ensure the fairness of the tax system.

tax.idaho.gov

All that may be true of Washington as well. But even so, I don't think getting WA plates in Dec or even registering a car in WA days after the Nov murder would establish residency in that state ON the day of the murder.
JMO

 

[10ofRods]

This is really well reasoned.

May I go one step further? I don't think this was a pre-planned mass murder: I am convinced it was a pre-planned single murder. And had it been a single murder, it may have followed in his (studied in crime) mind that it would be investigated but surely not with the vigor of a mass murder. Many murderers make this miscalculation. They underestimate the effort LE and families and the media will go to discover the truth and exact justice.

I will go on record (in the record of my mind) to say that this was a case of intimate partner homicide, the only difference is that one party was entirely unaware of the "partnership", a partnership that existed only in the fantasy world of the other.

I don't know why he brought his phone to Moscow or why he disabled it in some fashion where he did (if it was to create the illusion of an alibi, why not turn it off and leave it at a likely running path and pick it back up there after a fake run, buying time off the grid?) but I do think he felt invisible and invincible. I think he had decades to master stealth. I think he found his white sedan to be as generic as could be, beyond notice.

Hotbed of a college town, crime of passion, LE would be busy looking at every jilted collegiate jock...

IMO that's why he didn't plan better. He didn't think he'd ever be found out. Virtually no connection to the victim.

Virtually. Oh, the irony. Digital trails become runway lights for investigators.

So does leaving DNA behind. The sheath might have been his calling card too, as it appears he wiped it nearly free of DNA. Let LE go down some military wormhole.

Forgive me for venturing into the mind of someone like this, but I think the (ill) logic might have gone something like this: I see her. I find out where she lives. I stalk her. Silently. She has no idea how close I've gotten or even what I may have klepted of hers. She's exactly the kind of girl who thinks she's too good for me. But I can get any girl I want. I'll show her. As well, I'll make her pay. I'll make her pay for all girls. I'll make her pay for all guys too, the idiots who get girls like this.

If he had one target, was in and out in under a minute, hadn't left that whiff of DNA, we might've seen a very different investigative approach, one that may have left him well outside the scope of it for a very, very long time. Long enough that IMO he might've felt slighted by another woman, imagined or otherwise, and somewhere near that campus or another, another headline...

JMO

Excellent points. The stalker/serial peeper/creeper type definitely begins to think all of their previously undetected forays into other people's windows and houses are a form of invisibility. That they haven't been and won't be caught.

But I would also add that some of these serial offenders don't care if they are caught. It can be a conscious "not caring" or it can be subconsciousness. We read about this in the child development literature, where both child psychologists and skilled parents know that sometimes an errant toddler or 4 year old really just wants some limits. Wants to be forced to keep themselves safe and out of trouble. This is still part of the kindergarten mindset, but by 2-3rd grade, most kids are fairly self-regulating (although anyone who lives near an elementary school can go watch questionable behavior - because they are kids and still experimenting with consequences).

Kids who get few to no consequences for bad behavior may still feel guilty and deep inside, wish they could stop. IMO.

Of course, then there are the budding conduct disorder kids - and it's hard to say if they do or don't wish to be caught. Many who are caught and punished write or speak poignantly later in life about how they are glad for that.

Sometimes I think the perp in this case did not intend, even, to murder. Perhaps rape. Perhaps just a practice run for a rape. I have no idea. I do think it's possible that this perp had been in and out of other people's houses, both openly and secretly, as part of his overall MO. I think he'd likely been inside 1122 King, but if not, he had definitely scoped out the neighborhood and the house. If he was a serial peeper/creeper, he might have gone inside with a weapon, before, just as a way titillating himself (or whatever we want to call the thrill that such people get from their actions).

All speculation. JMO.

 

[maskedwoman]

BK was never a resident of ID. He didn't live or go to school in ID. Anyway, most states, including ID, make concessions for students. They are not required to switch their driver's license or car registration over unless they want to claim residency. Otherwise, they're fine.

"NOTE: You do not need an ID driver's license if you're only in Idaho temporarily to attend college/university or to fulfill your military obligations."

Moving

Moving to Idaho? Find information regarding jobs, licenses, and more.

www.idaho.gov

Well, duh. It was Washington. Clearly, I need to pack it in for the day!

 

[jepop]

Running on his emotions leaving out common sense.


I am not seeing what you see as to the discussions on here.

I'm not seeing people posting that BK is guilty for sure. No one is "throwing away the key" to his cell that I know of.

There is an unusual amount of evidence against just one defendant so early in the investigation that many think he looks guilty but most seem to understand he is presumed innocent right now and prosecutors need to prove his guilt to the jury.

Precisely what you say above. I'm one who is presuming innocence, but see there is a lot of circumstantial evidence against the defendant. The PCA is extremely strong as far as probable cause goes, Imo. But I understand the standard of BARD and also understand that the PCA is necessarily evidence of PC not BARD.

And I'm seeing evidence that supports LE having done a thorough job during the investigation, that due diligence was prioritised and that there is no other suspect as far as investigators are concerned. I don't see any evidence that LE/investigators are hiding knowledge of another suspect from the public.These notions are not just assumptions based on nothing - there are positive indications in the court docs, LE statements, press conferences and those facts that are available re the investigative procedures utilised in this case. E.g. The coordination of all those resources- (MPD, Latah County, ISP, fbi, Wsu police -as listed in your previous post)- was a massive undertaking and all indications suggest it was done successfully and professionally. Despite pressure from the press and even some family members of victims, LE protected the integrity of the investigation and got on with the job. Moo

 

[mmeynstyn]

He might be getting a little bit too much credit. The way it stated is is if he is running the show and I doubt very much that's going on. I wish we would stop waffling between mastermind and town imbecile (not you I just mean in general). Most likely it's somewhere in between. There's a lot more evidence even though some of it's going to get holes poked at it. I'm still needing tipping points to lock him up and throw away the key but it doesn't look great there's a lot of things that don't add up with him. JMOO

Mastermind or Imbecile....Neither for me; however, I admit what I've read about his behavior as a TA, IMO he "thinks" he is a mastermind. JMO, he thinks he is smarter than everyone. I mean, the language he supposedly used of being "exonerated" sounds like someone confident he will walk.

 

[MyBelle]

I added #s for ease of discussion...


The only item on the above list that is concrete is BK's DNA on the knife sheath. While it is implausible that his DNA got there other way than by his handling of the sheath and subsequently leaving it, It is not impossible that the sheath was left by someone else or by BK at some other time.

THE CAR: There is nothing in the videos that uniquely identify the car as belonging to BK (LP #, BK seen inside the car driving by the house, etc.). The car driving toward the scene may be BK's but that does not mean that the car seen in #2 is the same car (the reverse is also true). Again, not likely but not definitively "his car."

THE PHONE The phone appears to have been on the move for a short period of time before the crimes happened and a short time after they happened. Yet, the phone is not known to be in the car that is at the crime scene...what did someone say earlier--a negative is not proof or something like that?

THE "EYE WITNESS" Was not an eye witness to the murders. What the witness did see was a man she did not say she knew, whose face was partially covered. His body and the part of his face that she did see "did not exclude BK", nor do they exclude a lot of other men.

My sense of justice for victims, defendants, and potential victims due to a wrongful conviction or pitiful prosecution demands that I don't declare someone guilty, online or otherwise without knowing more than what I can poke holes through. OR maybe part of me enjoys playing devil's advocate.

it should go without saying at this point, but all of the above is based on what we are privy to at this moment.

BBM. By all means, let the defense convince a jury BK's DNA was left on the knife sheath by someone else.

As far as the witness, she never claimed to see the murders. She said she saw a man walk past her door. LE used a special technique to detect a shoe print. Is it the same size as BK's? I think there is a real good chance but by all means, let the defense persuade the jury it belonged to the same guy that left BK's DNA on the knife sheath.

JMO