4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #83

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I agree with this.

I also think that it's natural for people to think they are a good judge of character, to feel that they can tell when someone close to them has evil intent in their heart. It's just too frightening to think that someone might pass unnoticed in their sphere, at their work, in their church, opposite them at the dinner table, or alongside them at their kids' sports games, even though most people capable of these crimes don't come with warning sirens following them around. For every Ramirez, there's a Bundy, there's a Ridgway, there's a Rader, there's a List. There are people who compartmentalise very well between their public face and the private one only their victims ever see. They walk among us unseen, and that is terrifying.

MOO

I often think "they walk among us'-- you just never know who is capable of murder-- and some murders are ghastly and worse than others, and this is one of those. I always think it would be really nice if someone committed a horrible crime, a horn would grow out of their head LOL- with humans, unfortunately there is just no way to tell who is evil.
 
I agree with this.

I also think that it's natural for people to think they are a good judge of character, to feel that they can tell when someone close to them has evil intent in their heart. It's just too frightening to think that someone might pass unnoticed in their sphere, at their work, in their church, opposite them at the dinner table, or alongside them at their kids' sports games, even though most people capable of these crimes don't come with warning sirens following them around. For every Ramirez, there's a Bundy, there's a Ridgway, there's a Rader, there's a List. There are people who compartmentalise very well between their public face and the private one only their victims ever see. They walk among us unseen, and that is terrifying.

MOO
I agree! I almost became a victim of the canal killer. Now, my parents professions were homicide. I survived a previous attempt. I really really really thought I had great radar. So wrong! I cheerfully trotted out and bent down to look in his car trunk. He just last week or so got the death penalty for his victims . Did I sense anything? No! I thought he was sweet, gentle eyes, quite polite and charming. You really can’t tell. My mother always told me survivors had a second of warning. I did not. Unless you count the second I saw the headless mannequin torso in his trunk and ran for my door. So I guess thst did it. But that was pretty ridiculously obvious. He himself sent up zero red flags. And I grew up with lessons from my mother.
 
@Balthazar agree BK could have gotten Vans/knock off Vans even at thrift store knowing he would dispose of them after. Not sure this matters but black and white Nikes were seized at his home when arrested in PA. I assumed he was wearing the Nikes. Don't runners usually have a favorite shoe? Maybe he's not loyal to one brand of shoes. I think he may have bought a cheap throw away pair for his murder kit and didn't care brand knowing he was getting rid of them along with everything else.

JMO
edit ugh sorry. train of thought
LE found a latent print outside of DM's room which was consistent with Vans shoe soles (as well as some Vans knock offs.) The print would be where the intruder walked according to DM. What we don't know yet is what size shoe print it was and what the latent print consisted of. We only know the latent print exists. Honestly, I'm unsure of how LE wasl be able to tell that the print is from that night versus all the nights of partying that went on in that house unless it is somehow a latent shoe print that contains blood. I guess we will hear about this when this case goes to court.
 
LE found a latent print outside of DM's room which was consistent with Vans shoe soles (as well as some Vans knock offs.) The print would be where the intruder walked according to DM. What we don't know yet is what size shoe print it was and what the latent print consisted of. We only know the latent print exists. Honestly, I'm unsure of how LE wasl be able to tell that the print is from that night versus all the nights of partying that went on in that house unless it is somehow a latent shoe print that contains blood. I guess we will hear about this when this case goes to court.
We know that it in all likelihood was left in blood, because they used a presumptive test for blood for round one, then for round two developed the print with a stain of Amido black to photograph it. Amido black reacts to the proteins. Amido black 10B - Wikipedia

Finding a basic footprint in a house with plenty of residents and friends visiting all the time is to be expected. This was a house that was lived in. A random footprint, of which there would be many, would tell them nothing.

Finding a footprint IN BLOOD shows that it was left in the window of the bloodletting event. Now, you can't tell me they haven't tested that print for DNA, too. They would know whose blood it is, who were the contributor/s to it. I'm guessing the major contributors are Xana and/or Ethan, with maybe a little from the other girls, but mostly them, because of what we know about his movements through the home (thanks to D).

People who process crime scenes don't just randomly grab everything indiscriminately, they are trained for where to look and what to look for. They are looking for direction of movement, for places that would have been touched, for items that have been moved or removed, for patterns.

They knew the killer went to Xana's room, and left it. Xana and Ethan's bodies tell us that, and D's witness statement tells us that. So they would have been looking along that pathway, from Xana's room, past D's door, for evidence.

Also, as I think I've raised before, that point outside D's door is the one nexus of the home that you have to pass through when you want to go pretty much anywhere except the next room - from the top floor down, from the front to the back of the middle floor, from the kitchen to anywhere else... the only real movement that doesn't require going through that pinch point is from the bottom floor to the front half of the middle. And as far as we know, he didn't go downstairs to the bottom floor.

So, just theorising on movement, here - if he entered through the kitchen slider, went upstairs to Maddie's room, went back down to Xana's room, went back out through the kitchen, he passed though that pinch point three times. And two of those times was after a bloodletting event. I'd look there for a sharp print, too.

A reminder, I am not a CSI or forensics bod of any kind, just a giant nerd for it, so everything I have said above is my opinion only.
 
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I think in this case, many people consciously or subconsciously wish he is not guilty because he's a young college student with a loving family and it's unfathomable-- the horror of what he is alleged to do. I feel for his parents and can identify with the mother in many ways who just seems like a normal sweet mother, and in empathizing with her, I hope at some level there's been a terrible mistake. This is only one part of my feeling/thinking, because above all I want justice for the families of the victims and hope they do have the right person for their sake. But I think the relatability of the alleged perpetrator and family comes into play. He doesn't have Ted Bundy's arrogance and swagger. He doesn't have Alex Murdaugh's history of power and corruption. There's a vulnerability to BK that probably triggers a lot of people's empathy. You could say he was just an awkward, misguided, lost college student who was too argumentative and socially inept. Even if women said he was sexist or creepy, many people might have a young man like that in their family who they hope will grow and mature and change. He's not dirty, disheveled, unshaven with a tattoo on his face who was beaten by a family of deadbeats. So, I think there's some cognitive dissonance for many people. That's why people see evil in his eyes or read all kinds of stuff into his body language, IMO--to make it make sense.

I agree with some of these comments for sure and understand empathy for his family. We do find ourselves looking for obvious signs of his disordered mind and the acts of 11/13. OTOH, there's a lot of building evidence suggesting his guilt. I also live in Moscow and sort of need to know that they've caught the person who did this. I think it's just different when you're local. It informs active decisions you are making. I'm supportive of the gag order but sometimes need more information to come to light.
 
I agree with some of these comments for sure and understand empathy for his family. We do find ourselves looking for obvious signs of his disordered mind and the acts of 11/13. OTOH, there's a lot of building evidence suggesting his guilt. I also live in Moscow and sort of need to know that they've caught the person who did this. I think it's just different when you're local. It informs active decisions you are making. I'm supportive of the gag order but sometimes need more information to come to light.
This hit close to home for you; I'm sorry. I can't imagine what it's like to live there and walk around the town and desperately hope they've caught the right person.

I'm not LE, I'm half a world away, but for what little it's worth, I think that they have.

It's a long road to trial, especially in a capital case. I hope you have folks there you can talk to, who are going through the same thing.

MOO
 
This hit close to home for you; I'm sorry. I can't imagine what it's like to live there and walk around the town and desperately hope they've caught the right person.

I'm not LE, I'm half a world away, but for what little it's worth, I think that they have.

It's a long road to trial, especially in a capital case. I hope you have folks there you can talk to, who are going through the same thing.

MOO

Yes and thank you. FBI involvement is very reassuring. Occasionally, I wish for a change of venue. But it will be what it will be and we're adjusting.
 
Is he really going to be able to win his appeal and deny the Grand Jury charges?

It's not an appeal, it's just a standard motion. I don't think the Judge is going to throw the charges out. Indeed, it will give the Judge a chance to give a kind of preliminary ruling on the evidence presented at the GJ. If there had been a PH, the Judge would have ruled on the preliminary evidence to bind Kohberger over for trial.

It's the same evidence and while we won't get to read it, the Judge has surely already read it and will rule.

OTOH, if the Judge somehow finds the evidence insufficient to bind Kohberger for trial, that's huge. But given what we do know about the evidence, the motion is likely to be denied (and of course, that will make headlines).

IMO the Judge is going to rule against that standard motion.
 
LE found a latent print outside of DM's room which was consistent with Vans shoe soles (as well as some Vans knock offs.) The print would be where the intruder walked according to DM. What we don't know yet is what size shoe print it was and what the latent print consisted of. We only know the latent print exists. Honestly, I'm unsure of how LE wasl be able to tell that the print is from that night versus all the nights of partying that went on in that house unless it is somehow a latent shoe print that contains blood. I guess we will hear about this when this case goes to court.
Amido black 10B is an amino acid staining azo dye used in biochemical research to stain for total protein on transferred membrane blots, such as the western blot. It is also used in criminal investigations to detect blood present with latent fingerprints - it stains the proteins in blood a blue-black color. Amido Black can be either methanol or water based as it readily dissolves in both. With picric acid, in a van Gieson procedure, it can be used to stain collagen and reticulin.
Wilipedia
 
LE found a latent print outside of DM's room which was consistent with Vans shoe soles (as well as some Vans knock offs.) The print would be where the intruder walked according to DM. What we don't know yet is what size shoe print it was and what the latent print consisted of. We only know the latent print exists. Honestly, I'm unsure of how LE wasl be able to tell that the print is from that night versus all the nights of partying that went on in that house unless it is somehow a latent shoe print that contains blood. I guess we will hear about this when this case goes to court.

It contained blood. First, they used something like luminol (different brand, it's in the PCA). Then, when those luminol (already invisible) prints faded, they used Amido black which enhances proteins found in biologic material, so that it helps to pick up MORE invisible footprints that the luminol missed.

When a person steps in blood, typically the first couple of steps are visible (or, more, depending on amount of blood). Then the next steps are invisible to the naked eye but visible to Luminol (or similar). Then, when those too disappear, bring in the Amido black. ( Amido black 10B - Wikipedia )

Latent means "not visible to the naked eye." Latent Evidence

Footprints are not left by anything but a foot, whether in a shoe (as with this one) or not. Human footprints are distinctive and can give markers as to what the foot inside the shoe looked like.

So, since the use of Amido black only works on biologic proteins and since Luminol had already picked up other latent prints in blood, they looked for more bloody footprints. And found them.

So unless they had a party AFTER the four students were killed, leaving blood in the house, the footprints came AFTER the blood-letting.

Obviously, they know exactly whose blood was on the bottom of the shoe (I predict it will be Xana's, given what we know).
And that's how they know that the print was left in only one way. If it had not been blood, there would have been no point in using Amido black and/or luminol for those latent prints.

There is no "somehow," to me about how the blood got out of the people's bodies and onto the floor, to be stepped in. But that's how there came to be a latent print. Prints made with water do not show up with Amido black or luminol. Only blood proteins show up with luminol (after enhancement with Amido black).

IMO.
 
It contained blood.

Snipped by me for focus.

Thank you! That's good news. I'm not familiar with that particular test. So, will they also be able to test the blood and make sure it is from one of the victims as opposed to animal blood that could have come from something cooked in the kitchen previously, like a pack of steaks or something? (I noticed they had a grill outside on the patio.) Also would they be able to detect touch DNA from someone who maybe touched the bottom of the shoe putting it on?
 
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Yes and thank you. FBI involvement is very reassuring. Occasionally, I wish for a change of venue. But it will be what it will be and we're adjusting.
As another local (35 years), I lean towards being against a change of venue. I firmly believe a fair & impartial jury can be seated here, and with appropriate voir dire, which both the PA & defense team have extensive experience with, the odds of finding a jury that hasn't been totally contaminated by social media rumors is perhaps better here than anywhere in the state, MOO.

If an impartial jury can't be seated here, then I would support a change of venue. LOL -- that's where I am ATM, anyway.

MOO, as always.
 
Running on his emotions leaving out common sense.


I am not seeing what you see as to the discussions on here.
I'm not seeing people posting that BK is guilty for sure
. No one is "throwing away the key" to his cell that I know of.

It's simple fact:

There is an unusual amount of evidence against just one defendant so early in the investigation that many think he looks guilty but most seem to understand he is presumed innocent right now and prosecutors need to prove his guilt to the jury.

That is if he doesn't plead guilty, and he probably will plead guilty to avoid the DP if he is charged with it.

If anything, BK is getting a better defense and fairer trial than the average defendant gets. Idaho is "bending over backwards" for this defendant. Unusually good defense so far, extra top lawyers added, lots of Motions filed on his behalf, sweeping gag order to preserve his rights to fair trial.

He is being provided with a nice suit for court, not just a regular shirt.
He even gets a private cell with his own TV and vegan meals.


2 Cents
That's quite alright. One of the things that's interesting about this place is how we see things differently.

That being said, the points mentioned above are actually an example of what I attempted to describe in my original message about declaring (determining outcomes more likely than not, etc.) BK's guilt based on the limited facts that we know.

<modsnip>
 
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BBM. By all means, let the defense convince a jury BK's DNA was left on the knife sheath by someone else.

As far as the witness, she never claimed to see the murders. She said she saw a man walk past her door. LE used a special technique to detect a shoe print. Is it the same size as BK's? I think there is a real good chance but by all means, let the defense persuade the jury it belonged to the same guy that left BK's DNA on the knife sheath.

JMO
Right...Eye Witness is in quotes in my post that you're referencing--because she's been referred to as such by name or description by others. Of course, there is nothing in the PCA that says she saw the murders
 
I agree with some of these comments for sure and understand empathy for his family. We do find ourselves looking for obvious signs of his disordered mind and the acts of 11/13. OTOH, there's a lot of building evidence suggesting his guilt. I also live in Moscow and sort of need to know that they've caught the person who did this. I think it's just different when you're local. It informs active decisions you are making. I'm supportive of the gag order but sometimes need more information to come to light.
Years ago I had a friend who was murdered in a home invasion type murder - her husband was left for dead, but survived. I remember very vividly how scared I was because we didn't know why she and her husband were chosen or by whom at the time. It was certainly very unsettling, so I totally understand how you feel. Do whatever you need to do to feel safe.
 
<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

I've never followed a true crime case other than through MSM updates and an occasional search to learn what happened after the initial buzz died down. <modsnip - quoted post was removed>

I didn't follow this case until the "surprise" announcement of Bryan Kohberger's arrest--a suspect so very different thatn who I expected. I saw the news the morning after the crimes happened, had thoughts about who did it/was involved, and thought nothing else about it until the breaking news of the arrest.

I think I was initially interested in any connections between BK and the victims and things spiraled in a membership on Websleuths!
 
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I might have. I was responding to the thought you noted that if he was involved in a lesser crime, it could be motive to hold back an alibi. That doesn’t make sense to me.


Oh, in my opinion, based on decades researching true crime, and as a lawyer in general, the evidence is incredible.

The investigators did an impeccable job and built an exceedingly strong case. To recap:

  1. A white sedan was captured on security footage leaving the area of WSU, on their security cameras, the morning of the murders.
  2. What looked to be the same white sedan was captured crossing state lines from WA to ID right before 3:00 a.m.
  3. A white sedan was captured on security cameras traveling towards the victims’ residence the morning of the murders, at 3:30 am.
  4. The same car appeared to pass by the house several times thereafter.
  5. The same car departed the area of the house at a high rate of speed, at 4:20 am.
  6. A white sedan, appearing to be the same car in all the footage, crossed back over state lines into WA at 5:30 am.
  7. BK was a student at WSU at the time.
  8. BK drove a white Elantra that matched the vehicles seen in the footage.
  9. BK was put on the radar after a search of all white sedans registered to students at WSU, due to tracing the footage of the sedan, from and to WSU. Not because BK is some weird guy. The evidence led to him.
  10. BK’s cell phone records were thereafter searched and showed that on the morning of the murders, his phone pinged leaving his residence in Pullman, WA, at 2:47 am.
  11. Those same records thereafter did not ping for the next two hours, as if it was turned off.
  12. Then, at 4:48 am, his phone pings south of Moscow, ID, just into WA.
  13. The pings match almost perfectly with the security footage of the white sedan, which is the car BK drives.
  14. His cell then pinged again, at around 9:00 am, at the crime scene, prior to the time police were called. So back in Moscow.
  15. Phone records showed BK’s phone was also at the crime scene 12 times in the early morning or late at night, prior to the murders. And yet there is zero evidence that the victims knew BK or had any dealings with him of any kind.
  16. DNA from his family’s trash in PA showed that the genetic material belonged to the father of the person whose DNA was found on a knife sheath at the scene of the crime.
  17. The knife sheath found at the scene matches the type of weapon used to stab the victims.
This is incredible evidence. Phenomenal.
If you're a criminal attorney, you definitely would not want me on on your jury. I'd ask all the questions: any evidence that did not show BK in the car, with the car, at the house specifically, I'd want (need) an explanation from the prosecutor, the defendant or LE.

That is perhaps why I didn't make it past voir dire on a 20 yrs -life felony the last time I was on jury duty.
 
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