4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #83

[BeginnerSleuther]

I missed some things.

Could you find links for me to where it says no victim DNA was found in his car and where it talks about 3 unidentified male DNA profiles found in the King Rd house?

Thanks

"By December l7, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located, and another unknown male DNA on glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022. To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles. Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case...ion to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf


"There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case...ion to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf

 

[Boxer]

"By December l7, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located, and another unknown male DNA on glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022. To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles. Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062323 Objection to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf


"There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062323 Objection to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf

This AT statement needs a rebuttal every time it is repeated, there is an explanation.
It is taking standard bio hazard measures to prevent transfer, and hours of time to deal with any possoble contamination after the Elantra left King Rd. before returning to the apartment.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

MOO the jury will evaluate evidence reasonably, which means DNA in the sheath of a murder weapon found beneath a victim is exponentially more important than random DNA.

Snipped by me.

None of us are in any place to determine what will or won't be more important to the jury. The DNA on the sheath was touch DNA. Ask any random person on the street (aka, where the jury pool will come from), if they think it's possible for one to commit a mass murder in 15 minutes without getting ANY victim DNA on their car, apartment, or office and only leaving his own touch DNA (with an expert to explain what touch DNA is), on a button of a sheath that they haven't even confirmed belonged to the murder weapon, and I would bet you'll get a bunch of different responses. Some are banking on the jury being entirely made up of those who give the response that agrees with their conclusion. I'm thinking it'll be a mixed bag. And as we know, even one juror not buying it is all it takes.

Why. Crimes are fast, commitment to the violence is everything.

Because 15 minutes is a short amount of time when you're full of adrenaline. It's not at all the same as just setting your clock for 15 minutes and just watching it. The release of stress hormones in that short time period makes a world of difference. I think we're expecting actions of Houdini-like proportions to suggest someone stupid enough to take his phone to the scene of his own murder and leave his knife sheath there, was able to slaughter 4 people and clean up every inch of himself, his clothes, and his shoes, and escape with zero evidence except touch DNA on a button snap, all in 15 minutes. I just don't buy it. If he did this, he had help, either before, during, or after.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

MOO It would be sad if BK got off on standard defense distraction and embellishment.

I don't consider it distraction or embellishment. I feel that this is nowhere near BARD and it isn't because I think he's handsome (I actually don't like the way he looks) or because I like him as a person (I think he lacks social skills, has a total lack of boundaries, and has demonstrated weird and evening threatening behavior, whether intentional or not). I don't feel it's BARD because I know what stress hormones and adrenaline does and I just don't think it's possible someone did this by themselves in this short time frame without leaving evidence all over the house, his car, and his apartment. At the very least, I expected his blood in the house, victim blood all over the car, victim blood in his apartment, victim hair in his car, more prints on the sheath, his DNA on the door or in the rooms, more footprints that clearly belong to him, a pair of Vans in his apartment, no confusion on the car (per NY Times last week, cops were looking for a Nissan SENTRA initially, not even an Elantra), etc.

Based only on what we know now, there are so many holes in this case, I would fall over in shock if any jury could convict him. Is there more we don't know? Absolutely. But I can only go by what's been released and it's interesting to me that every time new information is released, I keep reading by the "experts" on social media sat that there's more we don't know. Today's bombshells were huge and if true, I'm not sure what we don't know can make up for it.

MOO.

 

[Cool Cats]

"By December l7, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located, and another unknown male DNA on glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022. To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles. Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062323 Objection to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf


"There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062323 Objection to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf

I am surprised there isn't dozens of unidentified male DNA found because dozens of people were in and out of the King Rd house. To be expected.

And it is to be expected that there is no victim DNA in Pennsylvania house, office or apartment.

It is the car where it was likely that victim's blood would be found and blood is a main source for extracting DNA. So if any DNA were to be found I figured the car.

So why not in the car?

He had the interior covered in plastic and had 6 weeks to clean it.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

This AT statement needs a rebuttal every time it is repeated, there is an explanation.
It is taking standard bio hazard measures to prevent transfer, and hours of time to deal with any possoble contamination after the Elantra left King Rd. before returning to the apartment.

In my opinion, there was not time to take standard biohazard measures to prevent transfer to his car. Again, it's interesting to me that many experts in MSM and on social media said months ago that with the FBI disassembling his car, there's no way he could have wiped it all down or prevented some evidence, that the FBI would find something because it's not possible he missed every nook and cranny. Now that it appears there's no evidence in his car, let's see what the same experts have to say.

MOO.

 

[gremlin444]

I think a crucial bit of information that would also be used to evaluate and weigh the significance of the two unidentified male DNA samples inside the house (and the glove outside) is their location and amount. If found on the sliding door/handle or Maddie's door knob--then the significance is pretty big and pursuing through genetic genealogy would have have been important and highly likely, right? But if they were found in locations that were less significant--touch DNA from a lamp base in the living room (a publicly accessible location during parties and an item not likely cleaned frequently by the college student occupants), should they be expected to devote the resources to do genetic genealogy on them? A relatively unweathered looking glove dropped right outside the exits to the house is going to get all the attention, but should a weathered glove found half buried in the dirt and leaves off in the tree line be submitted to genetic genealogy?

Those 3 male profiles _were_ tested in so far as standard profiles were created and they were then checked for matches against known people/samples in the case and CODIS. In the very next paragraph in the Defense's motion, they even acknowledge that at that time many other suspects and their DNA were being investigated.

When there is as comprehensive of a gag order as this, motions are a way for either side to get information out in the public eye to influence opinion. "Three other unidentified male profiles" sounds pretty damning to the public when it is given without specifics. IMHO, I'm awfully sure that if those samples inside the house WERE found somewhere like Maddie's doorknob, AT would be have been sure to state that in no uncertain terms and would have been allowed to do so.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am surprised there isn't dozens of unidentified male DNA found because dozens of people were in and out of the King Rd house. To be expected.

And it is to be expected that there is no victim DNA in Pennsylvania house, office or apartment.

It is the car where it was likely that victim's blood would be found and blood is a main source for extracting DNA. So if any DNA were to be found I figured the car.

So why not in the car?

He had the interior covered in plastic and had 6 weeks to clean it.

So are you of the opinion that he disassembled his car the same way the FBI would 6 weeks later? Because plastic covering won't prevent blood or hair from falling into those nooks and crannies people were sure were going to be used as evidence, IMO.

Also, you are correct that it's to be expected that there would be male DNA in that house. But why is it unidentified? The fact that it's unidentified leaves the door open for doubt. It doesn't prove anything by any means. But it's all about reasonable doubt, and that coupled with no victim DNA anywhere in the car or apartment is it.

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think a crucial bit of information that would also be used to evaluate and weigh the significance of the two unidentified male DNA samples inside the house (and the glove outside) is their location and amount. If found on the sliding door/handle or Maddie's door knob--then the significance is pretty big and pursuing through genetic genealogy would have have been important and highly likely, right? But if they were found in locations that were less significant--touch DNA from a lamp base in the living room (a publicly accessible location during parties and an item not likely cleaned frequently by the college student occupants), should they be expected to devote the resources to do genetic genealogy on them? A relatively unweathered looking glove dropped right outside the exits to the house is going to get all the attention, but should a weathered glove found half buried in the dirt and leaves off in the tree line be submitted to genetic genealogy?

Snipped and bolded by me.

Yes, IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

So are you of the opinion that he disassembled his car the same way the FBI would 6 weeks later? Because plastic covering won't prevent blood or hair from falling into those nooks and crannies people were sure were going to be used as evidence, IMO.

Also, you are correct that it's to be expected that there would be male DNA in that house. But why is it unidentified? The fact that it's unidentified leaves the door open for doubt. It doesn't prove anything by any means. But it's all about reasonable doubt, and that coupled with no victim DNA anywhere in the car or apartment is it.

It is not identified because no DNA comes with a name. They try DNA LE data bases and genealogy sites but that often doesn't reveal anything. If "Tom" leaves DNA but has no DNA in a LE database, and his relative's DNA is not found in tested genealogy sites, you get zero results.

I think it is not beyond a reasonable doubt that Bryan was able to clean up enough blood to prevent a DNA profile and to do this without tearing apart his car then putting it back together again.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It is not identified because no DNA comes with a name. They try DNA LE data bases and genealogy sites but that often doesn't reveal anything. If "Tom" leaves DNA but has no DNA in a LE database, and his relative's DNA is not found in tested genealogy sites, you get zero results.

I think it is not beyond a reasonable doubt that Bryan was able to clean up enough blood to prevent a DNA profile and to do this without tearing apart his car then putting it back together again.

I get that, but if they were just innocent party-goers, why didn't they come forward to be ruled out? IMO, LE didn't just interview the social circle of the victims; they likely tried to find and rule out every single male they came in contact with in the few months before the murders. So there are three still unaccounted for who were at the home and until they're cleared, IMO, we can't say they didn't play a role in this. They may not have, certainly. But IMO, we can't draw that conclusion, and neither will the defense.

 

[U.N. Known]

BBM. Of course! Evidently, the Defense wants it all produced because she is trying to influence public opinion and interject doubt in the public's mind. I wish her luck.

I wonder at what point BK realized he didn't have that knife sheath?

JMO

I would perhaps agree if the DA hadn't revealed so much in his motion not to comply with the request to provide details. AT is responding with the same level of detail. He opened the door for revelations; I was surprised that there wasn't an attempt tho have that motion sealed (if possible).

 

[schooling]

MOO It would be sad if BK got off on standard defense distraction and embellishment.

Everyone is putting so much stock into every move his defense team makes. But I haven’t seen anything that I havent seen before.

99% of the people in prison are innocent. Just like BK.

Also, cars are misidentified by make, model, color, year, all the time in cases. Because LE thought it was a Nissan Sentra for a week doesn’t automatically dismiss the Elantra on video doing a 3 point turn at the murder scene.

Investigations are iterative. You go down different paths. Adjust. Eventually you get it right. That’s the point.

MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

I get that, but if they were just innocent party-goers, why didn't they come forward to be ruled out? IMO, LE didn't just interview the social circle of the victims; they likely tried to find and rule out every single male they came in contact with in the few months before the murders. So there are three still unaccounted for who were at the home and until they're cleared, IMO, we can't say they didn't play a role in this. They may not have, certainly. But IMO, we can't draw that conclusion, and neither will the defense.

A friend invites me to go with her to a party where 6 people live and others have lived there before. I don't know the people in the house and I leave my DNA.

Several months later there are 4 people killed in the house and I freak out because I was in that house etc...

LE never interviews me. I never hear from LE.

Meanwhile, my unidentified DNA has been found.
I have no way to know my DNA is sitting around in some evidence locker.

It doesn't even occur to me to call LE and ask them if they found any unidentified DNA because maybe it could be mine, not realistic.

Too many people were in and out of that house for LE to be able to identify every single piece of DNA. Plus, students left for 2 breaks, Thanksgiving and Christmas.

 

[schooling]

So are you of the opinion that he disassembled his car the same way the FBI would 6 weeks later? Because plastic covering won't prevent blood or hair from falling into those nooks and crannies people were sure were going to be used as evidence, IMO.

Also, you are correct that it's to be expected that there would be male DNA in that house. But why is it unidentified? The fact that it's unidentified leaves the door open for doubt. It doesn't prove anything by any means. But it's all about reasonable doubt, and that coupled with no victim DNA anywhere in the car or apartment is it.

MOO

Reasonable doubt is not a zero sum game.

An unknown profile might create doubt but it can easily be wiped away by a preponderance of other evidence when all is considered in a jury room.

BK doesn’t get away with a quadruple murder because prosecutors didn’t answer every single question. Reasonable works both ways.

If I’m sitting in the jury room and I can’t find a reasonable alternative for his 3am drive towards the crime scene, past the house, speeding away and leaving his dna at the scene I’m throwing the unknown profile out the window and voting guilty.

 

[Boxer]

Reasonable doubt is not a zero sum game.

An unknown profile might create doubt but it can easily be wiped away by a preponderance of other evidence when all is considered in a jury room.

BK doesn’t get away with a quadruple murder because prosecutors didn’t answer every single question. Reasonable works both ways.

If I’m sitting in the jury room and I can’t find a reasonable alternative for his 3am drive towards the crime scene, past the house, speeding away and leaving his dna at the scene I’m throwing the unknown profile out the window and voting guilty.

MOO absolutely a man bent on murder can produce that kind of mayhem in that time line AND be methodical.
This defendent had a dream of being an Army Ranger at one time (quiet night assasination is a Ranger specialty) and still he still wished to work with the police, he boxed, he ran etc.

MOO Almost all criminals are "stupid" because they think crime will solve their problems.
Their errors (turning off a phone inside the perimeter of the ultimate geofence for instance) play out time and time again in investigations, but of course often enough they also just luck out and dont get caught.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What are the chances BK planted an unidentified male's DNA/left something besides the sheath on purpose at the crime scene and that's why he's so sure about it??????

MOO

Good point - that would also fit with 'has anyone else been arrested' question

 

[wary]

"By December l7, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located, and another unknown male DNA on glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022. To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles. Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062323 Objection to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf


"There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062323 Objection to States Motion for Protective Order.pdf

Looks as though the defense attorneys are getting around the gag order quite nicely.

 

[katydid23]

I'm actually surprised there were only two unidentified samples. College party house -- could've been a gazillion. I'm not surprised BK's attorneys would jump on mystery DNA. It's their job. It's a far cry from SODDI however.

There were no sweatered ninjas.

Jmo

Exact same thing happened in Mollie Tibbetts trial. Unknown male DNA found in trunk of the car, same trunk her body had been hidden in before she was dumped. I think two different unknown DNA samples were found. Nothing ever came from it, and suspect was found Guilty.

 

[Rumination1]

I wonder if BK was clever enough to have gotten away with this whilst simultaneously leaving room for doubt at the same time as pointers to himself

If he did that’s utterly frightening and would validate the claim he said “ I will be exonerated”.

If he wasn’t that , maybe he is the wrong ( or only part of the equation) person and the investigator needs to continue .

If they have far more against him they he was a poor planner who did this whilst using his car, carrying his phone and dropping a sheath .

I wonder what clever legal minds make of the recent documents from defence and prosecution