4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Cool Cats]

I am not 100% convinced it was him. I simply don't think one source of DNA and a misdated Elantra is enough to convince me. This being said, I do not have the feeling that he was innocent, either. There just need to be more facts to decide, either way.

Phone evidence goes with the car evidence. No way to explain away the phone evidence of his own phone pinging on cell towers in conjunction with the car that looks like his.

Was someone else using his phone? No. Or there would be an alibi. Defense still refuses to give prosecution the alibi the prosecution is entitled to.

Gee, I wonder why that is?

 

[NottaYutz]

I think there are more people than realized in that boat, honestly. Here on WS, it's a little different, but IMO, this case has never been a slam dunk because there are many questions outstanding. JMO

The evidence I know about suggests he is guilty, and I believe 99.99% he is guilty; however, I'm not 100% certain he is guilty because I haven't seen all the evidence.

 

[Kaylison]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

Haven't seen anything about no evidence being left behind at the scene? Just the defense saying they haven't found any connections, but are apparently struggling with enough time to study/sift through all the raw discovery.

IIRC, from social media posts, most rooms in the house had ambient lighting (neons and the TikTok lighting strips that are really popular with that age.) bk also has had several people come forward saying he was nocturnal and preferred running late at night (in the dark.) MOO, but those details make it evident to me he was used to physical activities in those conditions.

 

[NottaYutz]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

There's still evidence to be seen, and yet if the killer wore gloves, a mask, a head covering, and all-body covering, what except bloody shoe prints is left to be found? Regarding the fifteen minute window, a killer could easily murder four in that time frame. Figure one minute to sneak upstairs, two-for-one in Madison's bed--give that three to five minutes--one minute to sneak back downstairs, stab two more in seven to nine minutes--... A big knife and intent to slaughter doesn't take a long time.

**Edited to add MOO timeline.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I didn't notice it this time but in the earlier hearings a muscle would twitch in his face, that became less obvious over time, I thought. I think he is well prepared by his defense team. he looks smart and with the appropriate demeanour.

I also wonder if he is on any medication? I know we don't have rights to his medical records, but I am curious <modsnip>

You're right, his actions were more fluid to me during this appearance and his eyes did not seem as bulged and darting as before, but I still caught the clenching a few times.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

Bundy. He attacked four, killing two and leaving two grievously injured. He also sexually assaulted the two he killed, one by ripping her underwear off so viciously he gave her friction burns, the other with an object rape. The sorority house was almost pitch dark, and he'd never been inside it before. He improvised a weapon from an oak branch from a firewood pile, and also strangled one victim with a stocking. He left a bitemark on a victim, but other than that, no footmarks, no screams from victims or housemates, no fingerprints, and a tighter timeframe. He was in and out in less time, and with far more witnesses in earshot than at King Road. Oh, and he was probably also a bit drunk, given how late this was in Bundy's run and how his alcohol intake stepped up as he decompensated towards the end. It also wasn't the end of his night, he went to a nearby apartment and grievously assaulted another victim after he left Chi Omega.

I'm not saying the two killers - Bundy and the killer of the students at King Road - had the same motivations, skill levels, or fantasy leading up to their respective crimes, but because Bundy did it, we know it theoretically is possible that King Road was done alone, in the dark, possibly under the influence, without the household being awoken or full of screaming, without a prior knowledge of the home, and in well under 20mins.

All the relevant information on Bundy's attack on Chi Omega is available in books, on tv shows, and for free on wikipedia.

Ted Bundy - Wikipedia

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think it depends on how and why the model years changed. Perhaps when BK's car was reported, and possibly a few things began to line up, they went back to the FBI expert and asked if they could say whether or not the videos they had would exclude a 2015 model? And perhaps the FBI expert looked again and said, "actually, no, they don't exclude that model year". I think a scenario like that would be perfectly understandable to the jury. MOOooo

I also believe LE purposely added the year model to include 2016 in an effort to keep BK from bolting or dumping/torching the car altogether, just like they said they wanted to talk to the occupant or occupants seen in vehicle that evening.

I have seen this happen before in criminal cases.

MOO

 

[jepop]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

IMO, we don't know what the killer left behind besides his dna on the sheath button. We know there are footprints and IMO investigators believe the print mentioned in the PCA belongs to the killer. I have no difficulty believing that four recumbent young people could be quickly killed with a deadly weopen in the hands of a committed murderer. I don't think the killer "cleaned up" the crime scene, but even if he made an attempt, that would have been detected by forensics. And I'd surmise that an attempt at clean up would likely be a risk for leaving more dna as opposed to getting in and out of the house speedily.

It is entirely possible for these four murders to have happenned rapidly and at the hands of one individual - regardless of what is personally believed it is objectively possible. Moo

 

[Justice101]

Bundy. He attacked four, killing two and leaving two grievously injured. He also sexually assaulted the two he killed, one by ripping her underwear off so viciously he gave her friction burns, the other with an object rape. The sorority house was almost pitch dark, and he'd never been inside it before. He improvised a weapon from an oak branch from a firewood pile, and also strangled one victim with a stocking. He left a bitemark on a victim, but other than that, no footmarks, no screams from victims or housemates, no fingerprints, and a tighter timeframe. He was in and out in less time, and with far more witnesses in earshot than at King Road. Oh, and he was probably also a bit drunk, given how late this was in Bundy's run and how his alcohol intake stepped up as he decompensated towards the end. It also wasn't the end of his night, he went to a nearby apartment and grievously assaulted another victim after he left Chi Omega.

I'm not saying the two killers - Bundy and the killer of the students at King Road - had the same motivations, skill levels, or fantasy leading up to their respective crimes, but because Bundy did it, we know it theoretically is possible that King Road was done alone, in the dark, possibly under the influence, without the household being awoken or full of screaming, without a prior knowledge of the home, and in well under 20mins.

All the relevant information on Bundy's attack on Chi Omega is available in books, on tv shows, and for free on wikipedia.

Ted Bundy - Wikipedia

MOO

Also, BK was very physically fit.

 

[iamshadow21]

Also, BK was very physically fit.

He was.

The other parallel between Bundy and the killer at King Road that I forgot to mention above is both passed a living witness on their exit from the residence, who was able to describe them to police.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

IMO, we don't know what the killer left behind besides his dna on the sheath button. We know there are footprints and IMO investigators believe the print mentioned in the PCA belongs to the killer. I have no difficulty believing that four recumbent young people could be quickly killed with a deadly weopen in the hands of a committed murderer. I don't think the killer "cleaned up" the crime scene, but even if he made an attempt, that would have been detected by forensics. And I'd surmise that an attempt at clean up would likely be a risk for leaving more dna as opposed to getting in and out of the house speedily.

It is entirely possible for these four murders to have happenned rapidly and at the hands of one individual - regardless of what is personally believed it is objectively possible. Moo

Agree. Acts of violent killing go down in seconds not minutes.

 

[Balthazar]

i think it was a PR exercise, they knew they would be filmed entering so planted smiles on their faces in an attempt to appear cordial and pleasant.
Probably warned the accused to appear sombre, which he did.

No, definitely not. I think something happened before but BK was not there. They were ebullient. This was clearly not acting.

 

[DizzyB]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

So then what are your thoughts? Do you think it had to be one of the other unidentified DNA match males in the house? Or a resident? Another killer who left no evidence?

BK makes complete sense to me. The evidence that is out there for the public is vast, but imperfect. The jury will have to decide, based on the evidence that they end up seeing, whether to convict or acquit. I think we all watch too much television, where everything is airtight. Investigators are not infallible-maybe they got the car year wrong, but the make and the model was correct. Coupled with some other evidence, like phone records, cameras, DNA, shoe size, maybe GPS tracking, computer searches, it may be a preponderance. I firmly believe they have the right guy.

 

[Charlot123]

Could you please cite all of these cases or even some where a distant cousin explicitly agreed or stated that they didn’t mind being mentioned? Beyond the checkbox agreeing to share information with law enforcement?

I follow a subreddit dedicated to cold cases being solved using genealogical dna and can’t remember reading about any such cases.

In most of the cases I’ve seen LE rarely ever reaches out directly to family members (so they don’t tip off the perp) to narrow the pool. They instead rely on public records and even social media to do the vast majority of their work. Contact is rarely ever made until they have a single suspect.

I’m not saying that I don’t believe you. I’m honestly genuinely interested because at every family get together I inevitably (after a few drinks) bring up this interesting topic of dna and public databases. My family has an inordinate amount of people participating. I have at least a dozen first cousins in the database which I way beyond the norm.

Now this is a good question and I don't remember off the top of my head, have to look, but I think one was Sara Yarborough case, and another, in Canada. The guy was dead since 2015 but his children gave DNA and didn't mind. Need to check the name. I think that in one of early high-power cases no one minded, but let me check. Keep in mind people often don't know one another, though.

 

[MyBelle]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

That touch DNA is a positive match to BK. Plus, an eyewitness described BK's appearance to LE. A footprint corroborates her account. I have no doubt she will point to him when she testifies. Your opinion that this case is "impossible" but my opinion is it is a slam dunk for a conviction. I do agree a maniac is the killer.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

No, definitely not. I think something happened before but BK was not there. They were ebullient. This was clearly not acting.

I was watching it.
I didn't see what you saw.
I assume their client was in their company before all 4 entered together. He wasn't smiling.

If they had shared a particularly funny joke, he would have heard it too, had he been in their company?
I saw it as a pure meet and greet.

 

[Nila Aella]

• 06/27/2023 Order to File
• 06/27/2023 Stipulation for Preparation
• 06/28/2023 Temporary Order
• 06/28/2023 Order for Preparation

 

[Twistinginthewind]

There must be tremendous pressure on the police and FBI to discern who did this crime. If BK did not commit this crime then there is a killer on the loose, free to kill someone else. I think that fear is real in this community. Request for documentation for training and protocol is very important for the 3 officers. This allows the defense to pinpoint who else was interviewed, how they were interviewed and probably does a thorough review of a gap of time when the crimes were committed and reported. Police are human and this is not a major city where they are seasoned investigators. I dunno, there are so many unanswered questions.

Good points, @di anna.

I think I understand what you are saying and agree with a lot of it.

However, I respectfully diagree with your statement that Moscow, ID "is not a major city where they are seasoned investigators".

Moscow is a city of over 30,000 people, and is the seat of Latah County and part of a micropolitan area.

I don't see any differences or qualifiers being valid between a "major city" in a metropolitan area and a "small-size city" In a micropolitan area in terms of seasoning of investigators, and consider that a subjective view that should either be linked to a source where this information came from in your post that major cities have more seasoned investigators, or it should be stated as an opinion if there is no approved source to link to.

Many people seem to make the assumption Moscow is a small town, so I've posted links to the US Census statistics a few times before on this thread, because that is an inaccurate assumption.

IMO, BK made a mistake in underestimating the quality, experience and dedication of the MPD and prosecution in seeking justice for the 4 murder victims, and it was his Achilles heel and will be his downfall, if he is guilty and is convicted of the 5 felonies he’s charged with.

MOO

 

[MyBelle]

There must be tremendous pressure on the police and FBI to discern who did this crime. If BK did not commit this crime then there is a killer on the loose, free to kill someone else. I think that fear is real in this community. Request for documentation for training and protocol is very important for the 3 officers. This allows the defense to pinpoint who else was interviewed, how they were interviewed and probably does a thorough review of a gap of time when the crimes were committed and reported. Police are human and this is not a major city where they are seasoned investigators. I dunno, there are so many unanswered questions.

The size of the town is irrelevant, the training the police received is irrelevant because, based on the evidence presented to the grand jury, BK was indicted. Why on earth would the training of the officer who observed the autopsy be necessary to know?

I consider all law enforcement assigned to this case to be highly trained investigators. The one who doesn't seem to be highly trained or experienced is the Defense Attorney. Her goal seems to be to set up BK's appeal on the basis of ineffective counsel.

JMO

 

[Nila Aella]

Order for preparation of GJ transcript and record:
Both Pros and Def get:

Transcript
Record including Items in exhibit A (sealed to protect juror info)
Copies of exhibits
Juror questionaires
No deliberations
Can Share with experts, investigators and witnesses (only the witness portion for each witness)
Juror names redacted in transcript and record.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062723%20PUBLIC%20Stipulation%20for%20Preparation%20%20Release%20of%20Transcript%20%20Records%20of%20Grand%20Jury.pdf

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