4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Pitsleuth]

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I think differently.

We had several high-profile cases where DNA was the crucial element in helping to apprehend the killers. However, in all these cases the distant cousins didn’t mind being mentioned post factum and the LE was super open about their steps.

So the question, “show me how tree that you made led to BK” is as normal as “did luminol test indicate evidence of blood” for example. It is when there is a refusal to demonstrate genealogy work that I start wondering, and mostly, the simplest thing. I have two questions. First, did they run the sample against “opted in” DNAs or all database? The question, essentially, is about the integrity of Gedmatch. BTW, it is not about LE. As a paying consumer, I have the right to ask questions about all DNA companies I use. In the time when GG boom is over, they are left sitting on the trove of DNAs. I don’t want them to make money on something we, the customers, once paid for without telling us.

My second question is simpler, did they use Gedmatch at all? Imagine that someone merely “tipped him in” and LE compared the DNA on the sheath with the thrash DNA, and there was a 50% match. It is all good, but might raise questions about the integrity of the tipper, what are the tipper’s motives, or even, could that person place the sheath?

It is not tinfoil. Rather, PCA showed a strong, but essentially, single connection between the house and BK. Elantra’s year might have been their mistake, but they now have to accept the consequences, mostly, everyone seeing that their expertise was not great. And - anyone might have a trouble determining the year in the darkness, but then, simply widen the time interval if you don’t know, sorry. Or perhaps, it was a different Elantra. The pings I am especially critical of. The DNA - yes, has to be a strong connection, but there’d better be other evidence of BK being in the house that night.

I still don’t understand- his cheek swab was a complete match. Not a 98% match. A complete match. On the murder weapon (essentially ). Found under the body. Do you disregard that fact because they found him through genealogy?
IMO- taking issue with DNA databases and how LE use them is a separate issue. Take a stance on that, sure. But I’m not sure how it relates to BK’s guilt or innocence. IMO.

 

[ilovewings]

So then what are your thoughts? Do you think it had to be one of the other unidentified DNA match males in the house? Or a resident? Another killer who left no evidence?

BK makes complete sense to me. The evidence that is out there for the public is vast, but imperfect. The jury will have to decide, based on the evidence that they end up seeing, whether to convict or acquit. I think we all watch too much television, where everything is airtight. Investigators are not infallible-maybe they got the car year wrong, but the make and the model was correct. Coupled with some other evidence, like phone records, cameras, DNA, shoe size, maybe GPS tracking, computer searches, it may be a preponderance. I firmly believe they have the right guy.

At this point in the life of the prosecution of this crime, there is much we don't know: I anticipate there are surprises in store that we are not anticipating. Remember the Casey Anthony case where Jose Baez came out with a "bombshell" alleging Casey's father abused her, sexually assaulted her, and was responsible for the death of Caylee? who knows what bombshell is awaiting us in this case. You just never know- at this point in the life of this case I believe the evidence points to BK as the killer---

 

[Pitsleuth]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

Then by your own logic it would be possible to clean the crime scene and leave no other trace. But I believe you also have stated disbelief that BK could have used his car after the murders and left no trace, when other have suggested he did so by cleaning it (i.e. leaving no trace).
Can’t have it both ways. IMO.

 

[Maat99]

The question, essentially, is about the integrity of Gedmatch.

It’s pretty hard to dispute the Gedmatch when it led to BK and lo and behold his dna is a perfect match to the dna left on the knife sheath. Imo

 

[flowershop]

Does anyone think that we will ever find out in what manner the suspect became first acquainted with these victims?

I am guessing that the answer to this lies in what other information the prosecution has on BK or in the defense portrayal of his whereabouts the night of Nov 12/13.

 

[I'm Nobody]

I have a very, very hard time believing that some maniac killed 4 people in the dark in 15 minutes and left no other evidence behind except for touch DNA on a sheath. For me, that falls under the impossible category and would suggest that either he isn't the one or he or someone else cleaned up the crime scene.

JMO.

Interesting. Maybe you, as a medical person, can clear up something for me. TYIA
The lack of victim's DNA in BK's home, car, office (assuming he did not kill them in those places & drag back to crime scene) has me wondering about medical personnel, EMT, especially ER doctors and surgeons who get blood, vomit and other body fluids on them regularly. Medical staff are trained to use safety precautions, nothing like the extra precautions or crime scene training I assume BK allegedly took, like covering car seats, etc.

If only using industry safety precautions which have been practiced for decades, gloves, masks, covered hair, clothing & shoes, disposable gowns/shoes, scrub/shower after (not at home), can we expect medical staff's cars and homes be filled with DNA from their patients even if all safety precautions were taken?

JM curiosity

 

[Nila Aella]

Noticed it does state: Good Cause appearing
MOO





ICR 6.2 (c)
(c) Availability of Record of Grand Jury Proceedings. The district judge, by motion, must permit the following persons to listen to the record of the proceedings of the grand jury or to obtain a transcript of the proceedings in the same manner as a transcript of a preliminary hearing:

(1) a prosecuting attorney,

(2) a person charged in an indictment or the attorney for the person charged, or

(3) a person charged with perjury because of the person's testimony before the grand jury.

The district judge may place conditions on the use, dissemination or publication of the record of proceedings of the grand jury, and any violation of any condition by a party granted access to the record will constitute contempt of the order of the district judge.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwid183Cv-n_AhUhFlkFHXixDaAQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fisc.idaho.gov%2Ficr6-2&usg=AOvVaw0DDZom75fAPnUuMwAbV8Gp&opi=89978449

ICR 6.3(c)

(c) Secrecy of Proceedings and Disclosure. Every member of the grand jury must keep secret whatever was said or done in the grand jury proceedings and the vote of each grand juror on a matter before them; but a grand juror may be required by the district judge to disclose matters occurring before the grand jury which may constitute grounds for dismissal of an indictment or grounds for a challenge to a juror or the array of jurors. No other person present in a grand jury proceeding may disclose to any other person what was said or done in the proceeding, except by order of any court for good cause shown.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjQrIjcv-n_AhWDVjUKHXn3CAwQFnoECBYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fisc.idaho.gov%2Ficr6-3&usg=AOvVaw2yM0ZRc8QTly0ro9uT0Vh2&opi=89978449

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062823%20PUBLIC%20Order%20for%20Preparation%20%20Release%20of%20Transcript%20%20Record%20of%20Grand%20Jury.pdf

 

[Gemmie]

Does anyone think that we will ever find out in what manner the suspect became first acquainted with these victims?

I am guessing that the answer to this lies in what other information the prosecution has on BK or in the defense portrayal of his whereabouts the night of Nov 12/13.

Yes.



Source

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone think that we will ever find out in what manner the suspect became first acquainted with these victims?

I am guessing that the answer to this lies in what other information the prosecution has on BK or in the defense portrayal of his whereabouts the night of Nov 12/13.

Yes. If there is a trial I believe the prosecution will have an explanation as to when, how BK noticed them.

Without a trial it might not come out unless all these court documents get unsealed. Answer likely is in these documents.

Fact is, there is a point in time that BK came to notice the victims. I believe he first noticed them online through SM.

2 Cents

 

[Maat99]

Does anyone think that we will ever find out in what manner the suspect became first acquainted with these victims?

I am guessing that the answer to this lies in what other information the prosecution has on BK or in the defense portrayal of his whereabouts the night of Nov 12/13.

I’m thinking there is some insight to be had from social media and messaging accounts. Jmo

 

[Nila Aella]

New way the items are being listed in the case summary
Public and under seal versions

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-06292023.pdf

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Haven't seen anything about no evidence being left behind at the scene? Just the defense saying they haven't found any connections, but are apparently struggling with enough time to study/sift through all the raw discovery.

IIRC, from social media posts, most rooms in the house had ambient lighting (neons and the TikTok lighting strips that are really popular with that age.) bk also has had several people come forward saying he was nocturnal and preferred running late at night (in the dark.) MOO, but those details make it evident to me he was used to physical activities in those conditions.

IMO, we don't know what the killer left behind besides his dna on the sheath button. We know there are footprints and IMO investigators believe the print mentioned in the PCA belongs to the killer. I have no difficulty believing that four recumbent young people could be quickly killed with a deadly weopen in the hands of a committed murderer. I don't think the killer "cleaned up" the crime scene, but even if he made an attempt, that would have been detected by forensics. And I'd surmise that an attempt at clean up would likely be a risk for leaving more dna as opposed to getting in and out of the house speedily.

It is entirely possible for these four murders to have happenned rapidly and at the hands of one individual - regardless of what is personally believed it is objectively possible. Moo

So then what are your thoughts? Do you think it had to be one of the other unidentified DNA match males in the house? Or a resident? Another killer who left no evidence?

BK makes complete sense to me. The evidence that is out there for the public is vast, but imperfect. The jury will have to decide, based on the evidence that they end up seeing, whether to convict or acquit. I think we all watch too much television, where everything is airtight. Investigators are not infallible-maybe they got the car year wrong, but the make and the model was correct. Coupled with some other evidence, like phone records, cameras, DNA, shoe size, maybe GPS tracking, computer searches, it may be a preponderance. I firmly believe they have the right guy.

That touch DNA is a positive match to BK. Plus, an eyewitness described BK's appearance to LE. A footprint corroborates her account. I have no doubt she will point to him when she testifies. Your opinion that this case is "impossible" but my opinion is it is a slam dunk for a conviction. I do agree a maniac is the killer.

JMO

Because context matters, I feel the need to say that I was responding to a comment that asked:

"...but what if there isn't any other evidence but that DNA on the knife sheath?..."

I was not saying no other evidence exists. I was saying I'd find it very hard to believe no other evidence exists. And I stand by my opinion that IF (and that's a big IF) no other evidence exists, it will leave me with more questions and doubts about this case.

JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

The size of the town is irrelevant, the training the police received is irrelevant because, based on the evidence presented to the grand jury, BK was indicted. Why on earth would the training of the officer who observed the autopsy be necessary to know?

I consider all law enforcement assigned to this case to be highly trained investigators. The one who doesn't seem to be highly trained or experienced is the Defense Attorney. Her goal seems to be to set up BK's appeal on the basis of ineffective counsel.

JMO

You don't think Anne Taylor is highly trained or experienced? I disagree. I think BK lucked out big-time by getting AT as a defense attorney. She's not playing any games. If he gets off, it'll be because of her skill. I also disagree that the training records of officers are irrelevant, but I've already posted about that. JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Then by your own logic it would be possible to clean the crime scene and leave no other trace. But I believe you also have stated disbelief that BK could have used his car after the murders and left no trace, when other have suggested he did so by cleaning it (i.e. leaving no trace).
Can’t have it both ways. IMO.

Again, I was responding to a post that asked what if there's no other evidence. My comment was suggesting there IS evidence or else it's been cleaned by him or someone else.

And yes, I still believe that it's improbable that he used his car after and managed to clean all the nooks and crannies to pass a complete FBI disassembly of the car.

I have no idea what you mean by having it both ways.

 

[Boxer]

Because context matters, I feel the need to say that I was responding to a comment that asked:

"...but what if there isn't any other evidence but that DNA on the knife sheath?..."

I was not saying no other evidence exists. I was saying I'd find it very hard to believe no other evidence exists. And I stand by my opinion that IF (and that's a big IF) no other evidence exists, it will leave me with more questions and doubts about this case.

JMO.

It is MOO totally believable that no other DNA was found.
Just finding there makes it stronger evidence.

MOO Cleaning the sheath, perhaps even soaking it in a solution designed to elimiate DNA, but the snap mechanism was so stiff at least at first, the pressure needed to snap and unsnap ground the epithelial DNA into an area of the snap that the solution soak or a wipe down did not reach.
MOO it is an error that shows consciouness of DNA transfer, and so the the lack of it elsewhere, but found on the snap is MOO completely in line with that consiousness.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

IMO it’s a “No Brainer” that:

(1) The killer wore protective gear during the murders in order to keep their fingerprints, hair, skin cells, bodily fluids (blood sweat and tears), etc. and associated DNA “within” their gear, and the same of the victims “without”.

(2) The killer knew enough and was careful enough after they stabbed the 4 victims to death to then doff their protective gear using the roll-from-the-inside-out method in order to prevent bodily contact with the victims’ blood on the outside of their gear, before dropping their rolled up gear into a plastic garbage bag and/or waterproof dry bag (used on boats to prevent fluids getting on and in gear in wet conditions). They likely wore clean under gloves while they disrobed so nothing would get on the outside of the bag. They may have bagged up the sharp-edged murder weapon with their gear or may have bagged it separately.

IMO, following these 2 basic protocols which are standard operating procedures (SOPs) in many industries that are required in order to maintain a clean work environment and / or prevent the gear covered person from contaminating the environment they’re working in and vice versa so there is no exchange of any materials between person and environment no matter what they’re doing — e.g., handling chemicals or biohazard materials in a lab or clean room or waste management facility, or in this case stabbing 4 people to death in a house — is also widely known to be very close to (but not guaranteed) 100% effective in preventing cross contamination. Especially if the protective body suit is duct taped to gloves at the wrists and booties at the ankles covering the skin completely, and a face mask, hat and/or hood or bathing cap covers the face and head. The whole setup is called an encapsulating personal protective suit, and millions of people wear them every day around the world and don and doff them using these SOPs several times a day for breaks and meals.

In fact, back to the killer who LE says is BK, and his DNA on the knife, IMO:

(3) His DNA could have easily gotten there without his knowledge if ONE TIME during the donning and doffing of his protective gear AND holding the knife sheath at ANY time before, during, and after the murders his clean glove brushed his sweaty brow and a microscopic droplet landed in the snap, or he coughed or sneezed over it, or unsnapped the sheath using what he thought was a clean glove and it had a tiny bit of one of his bodily fluids on it or he had dry skin and a tiny flake drifted off his brow onto the glove before he touched the snap.

(4) After he left the scene with the sealed bag(s) of gear and got into what was likely his plastic sheet covered car interior and trunk, and drove out to wilderness areas and by a river on his way back home, he likely knew enough and had planned enough to dispose of the evidence or hide it out there, never to be found.

(5) After he disposed of the bloody evidence and murder weapon (or hid them) he knew enough and was likely aware enough to realize that there’s always the chance no matter how careful he was that some small smudge of blood or bone fragment or tiny bit of hair could have gotten on him and fallen off in his car or he touched the gear shift or key with an unclean glove, so he detailed it (vacuumed and wiped down surfaces and sanitized the interior and trunk, and washed the exterior including the tires in case dirt from where he parked during the murders could be traced to their neighborhood.

Then he thought job well done, they’ll never be able to find any trace evidence from me in the house or the victims’ on me or in my car, so not in my apartment, I was so careful and followed SOPs to prevent cross contamination.

All MOO with some repeats here that I’ve posted my theories on before based on my work experience and knowledge of the lengths criminals — especially killers who are punished more severely if caught than for other crimes — will go to to avoid getting caught.

He already exhibited behaviors of not wanting to get caught by killing them in the middle of the night slipping in when it was quiet and dark and the people in the house were either asleep or drowsy and on their way to sleep.

So why would he be any less cognizant of the need for stealth and care in not leaving his DNA there or taking the victims’ DNA away with him by wearing protective gear and disposing of the evidence in a remote location and cleaning his car just in case?

I’m very confident he wouldn’t want to be “that guy” who wasn’t ultra careful when he committed the murders if from his college studies he knew about psychology (the study of human behavior), criminal justice (study of how criminals are brought to justice), and more recently at the time of their murders Criminology (the study of crime).

Instead he would go above and beyond like a maniac spinning out to plan and then do all that to dodge LE and go on to admire his aplomb in committing the perfect simultaneous quadruple murder crimes.

So whenever someone doubts he could be the killer without leaving more evidence behind, I say please consider this ^^^^^ .

He was no dummy and he was hell bent on murdering those innocent kids and getting away with it.

Him being careful and not leaving or taking DNA from the crime scene is basic stuff and you can study all about it on the Internet without even going to school for it!

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Interesting. Maybe you, as a medical person, can clear up something for me. TYIA
The lack of victim's DNA in BK's home, car, office (assuming he did not kill them in those places & drag back to crime scene) has me wondering about medical personnel, EMT, especially ER doctors and surgeons who get blood, vomit and other body fluids on them regularly. Medical staff are trained to use safety precautions, nothing like the extra precautions or crime scene training I assume BK allegedly took, like covering car seats, etc.

If only using industry safety precautions which have been practiced for decades, gloves, masks, covered hair, clothing & shoes, disposable gowns/shoes, scrub/shower after (not at home), can we expect medical staff's cars and homes be filled with DNA from their patients even if all safety precautions were taken?

JM curiosity

Actually, yes, it's very possible. Doctors often have different shoes for the hospital vs home and many they don't wear their work clothes home. That's what scrubs were made for and in many cases, you leave the scrubs at the hospital. During COVID, many would even change out of their street clothes before entering their house, even though they wore scrubs at the hospital on the off chance that when they changed, they contaminated the street clothes. When you step in blood, in vomit, in bodily fluids, you will inevitably take some of it home unless you change out of the soiled shoes and/or clothes.

 

[kittythehare]

Interesting. Maybe you, as a medical person, can clear up something for me. TYIA
The lack of victim's DNA in BK's home, car, office (assuming he did not kill them in those places & drag back to crime scene) has me wondering about medical personnel, EMT, especially ER doctors and surgeons who get blood, vomit and other body fluids on them regularly. Medical staff are trained to use safety precautions, nothing like the extra precautions or crime scene training I assume BK allegedly took, like covering car seats, etc.

If only using industry safety precautions which have been practiced for decades, gloves, masks, covered hair, clothing & shoes, disposable gowns/shoes, scrub/shower after (not at home), can we expect medical staff's cars and homes be filled with DNA from their patients even if all safety precautions were taken?

JM curiosity

Generally, in most hospitals, staff can take showers.
There is no shortage of full PPE and all staff and now most lay people are trained in donning and duffing.

these materials are inexpensive, caps and gowns and shoe covers and visors.
He quite possibly stripped naked or down to underclothes to slash everybody.
Or wore PPE while doing so.. bagged them immediately and slipped into fresh clothes.
Gloves. Respiratory mask, shoe covers, head covering.
wipes.. protected vehicle covers , just plastic, well placed..

This was thoroughly planned.
the planning took more time than the killing.
he could have ended up with quite a tiny bag of bloody clothing to dispose of in the course of his lengthy trip back to his apartment and changed his clothes again before entering and straight into a shower.

It's not hard.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It is MOO totally believable that no other DNA was found.
Just finding there makes it stronger evidence.

MOO Cleaning the sheath, perhaps even soaking it in a solution designed to elimiate DNA, but the snap mechanism was so stiff at least at first, the pressure needed to snap and unsnap ground the epithelial DNA into an area of the snap that the solution soak or a wipe down did not reach.
MOO it is an error that shows consciouness of DNA transfer, and so the the lack of it elsewhere, but found on the snap is MOO completely in line with that consiousness.

I wasn't just talking about DNA. I was talking about all evidence.

 

[10ofRods]

Reread the PCA. I was horrified to realize that the phone evidence is a big black hole that shows he's in Pullman and then the phone goes off at 2:47am and does not connect with a cell tower again until 4:48am in Blaine. What is concerning to me is that there is zero video of the suspect vehicle entering Moscow. All video mentioned was not until it reached the area of Queen Rd at 3:30am. LE should have been able to trace that vehicle from the time it entered Moscow until it left. But somehow despite all the security cameras out there nowadays, they don't have that (at least as far as we can tell.)

Believe me when I say for the sake of the families and the victims, I wanted this to be a straight forward slam-dunk case. But with what we know so far directly from LE and the Defense, it is anything but that.

All IMO.

The big call for new video went out in mid-December. The amount of terabytes of video that the State turned over to the Defense gives me strong hope that there's way more that will pin the car down (including at least one shot of its rear license plate).

The phone leaves Pullman going at the speed of a car. We can doubt the existence of a car, but I don't. It doesn't just leave Pullman, it leaves the parking lot at the Steptoe Apartments, where Kohberger was living (and parking). It travels toward Moscow. It is turned off (or perhaps put on airplane mode - that would be great).

A white car parks outside 1122 King right at the time of the killings (as captured on neighbors' video - both the initial entry into the road beside 1122 (and there's a camera that captures the exit, as well - so it's reasonable to assume that the car was there for the 20 minute period, IMO). It came, it was seen going near 1122, then it left (at a high rate of speed?) and headed toward Blaine. I assume the phone is still in the car and would assume that any reasonable person would infer that the phone travelled from Steptoe to Moscow to King Road to Blaine, along with the car.

I do believe they have more video of that car than they did have on hand on the day they wrote the PCA. They didn't need to mention it and most judges will advise DA's to not reveal more of the future evidence unless and until there is a proper judicial hearing where both sides are present, following discovery! Those are good rules!

And that's why we do not know what's in all those pages of evidences - or terabytes of digital/video data. From the total sum submitted as part of discovery (the portion the State proposes to use at trial is all they have to submit), there's a lot more than what we know.

But the car, the phone and the DNA are pretty big. So is that return to King Road (by Kohberger, in his Hyundai with the same phone) and then his circuit (skipping Blaine) through the same long route back to Pullman is odd, isn't it? How is that going to be explained to the jury?

There's actually a lot more known about this case than what's in the PCA. And judges have been involved all the way through in determining what we, the public shall not know. I trust the process and think LE in Idaho would still be looking if the evidence was so sketchy.

I have yet to read a credible explanation of the sheath DNA, frankly. (Meaning: an explanation that allows Kohberger to be uninvolved in ownership, interaction and use of the sheath).


IMO.