4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

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Yes, IMO. I don't disassemble my car when I clean it.
I don't disassemble my house either, LOL. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. There was a case here locally where a woman disappeared and it was strongly believed her husband killed her. They searched that house off and on for years. They finally realized he had a built-in installed AFTER her disappearance, pulled it and the hardwood floor under it out, and found it on the subfloor. Of course, the victim's free-flowing blood is going to end up in a lot of places that an intruder's DNA won't go.

I do have a question, if you don't mind. <modsnip rumors not allowed> bleach would have changed the color of the seats and carpet. It would be obvious. Would "oxygen bleach"/Oxyclean do that same sort of damage? It suddenly hit me that some people call that stuff oxygen bleach and, when I googled, I learned that it can be effective at removing blood stains. <modsnip - rumors not allowed> I appreciate any thoughts you might have on that.
 
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Why did the prosecution go the route of a GJ? I'm not at all familiar with GJs, but I know they are secret. Were they protecting witnesses? What other reasons do they do them, and wouldn't the defense always have complaints due to the secrecy?

A grand jury replaces the preliminary hearing.

Once you join WS, it doesn't take long to learn most of us live for the preliminary hearing for several reasons including the hearing is public, and we learn for the first time the state's evidence against the defendant.

In many states, the probable cause affidavit (PCA) is withheld from the public until the preliminary hearing. On the other hand, the defense is allowed to cross-examine the state's witnesses, and essentially get a preview of the prosecutor's case. Unlike a trial, the rules for a preliminary hearing are a bit more relaxed where the Court will allow information typically not admissible during a trial such as hearsay evidence.

At the conclusion of the preliminary hearing, the Judge will decide whether or not the prosecution met its burden to show probable cause and bound the defendant over for trial. In other words, whether the prosecution presented enough evidence to justify a belief that a crime occurred and the defendant committed it.

Unlike the preliminary hearing where the defense is present, a grand jury is a one-sided affair-- that can subpoena documents and witnesses. Grand jurors see and hear only what prosecutors put before them. In part because there's no "defense side" to contest the prosecutor's evidence, grand juries almost always return an indictment as requested by the prosecutor. There's long been a saying a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich which I think is in reference to the reputation a grand jury is a "rubber stamp" for prosecutor's charges because grand jurors are not adept at evaluating evidence like judges are. Specific to Kohberger, I believe the defense is taking issue with how the grand jury was selected.

Prosecutors often prefer grand juries because the proceedings are secret, whereas preliminary hearings are open to the public. The rule on secrecy is meant to provide several benefits. For the accused, it protects their reputation should the case not be bound over for trial. For witnesses, it's meant to allow them to testify more freely and truthfully. And for the prosecution, it provides control of information.

A grand jury indictment is required for all federal felonies. In some states, all felony charges must go before a grand jury. But in others, the prosecutor might have a choice between presenting the case to a grand jury or going before a judge in a preliminary hearing.

In highly publicized or controversial charging decisions, prosecutors may opt for a grand jury to provide a political buffer. Given the gag order climate long enveloping this case, I'm not surprised the prosecutor opted for a grand jury. Personally, I think the grand jury is best suited for white-collar crime, and not quadruple homicide. JMO

What, Exactly, is a Grand Jury?
 
He could have killed the fifth girl, but chose not to.
Why?

If you mean the survivor who saw him, I don’t think I’ve seen definitive proof that he noticed her. He also didn’t go downstairs to the very bottom floor (that we know of), and did not kill the second survivor.

Maybe he was just worn out.
 
If you mean the survivor who saw him, I don’t think I’ve seen definitive proof that he noticed her. He also didn’t go downstairs to the very bottom floor (that we know of), and did not kill the second survivor.

Maybe he was just worn out.
I would expect him to still be running on adrenaline to some extent. But, if it had gotten quiet, he might have assumed he had eliminated everyone he intended and/or needed to and could safely leave. It does sound like he left in a hurry. That suggests that, as long as no one else crossed his path, he was eager to be gone.

EBM: typo
 
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Once is what I remember.
As in, his cell touched their wifi.

MOO That would probably mean he was closer to the house than sitting parked up at the Queen Rd. parking spots.
For him to touch their WIFI (if he was outside the house), if their router was 2.4Ghz, indicates that he was within about 300 feet of the house outdoors. This is the average reach.
 
I must have mixed up the warrants, but when I posted that originally, my thought was that when LE says BK was utilising the same cellular resource as the King Rd house, I strongly believe they have a much closer range with the phone pings than what many people seem to think they are capable of. Jmo. The geofence warrant proves they can narrow down to a half mile, at the very least.

Then we have the SG statement about BK's phone "touching" their wifi/bluetooth. Imo, this all hints to LE pinpointing his location on those 12 previous times to close to the King Rd house and not just any random place in Moscow within the entire tower range. He was in the area for almost an hour on the night he was pulled over, which happened right after he moved from one cellular resource to another, my guess is from one sector to another. What was he doing near the King Rd house for an hour? After what happened in that house, I'm not buying that he was shopping, getting tutored, visiting a girl, etc... all late night or early morning hours.

Cellular pings are significant evidence, from cases I've seen go to court. Imo, he was stalking that house.
Yes it does show they have the ability to narrow it down to 1/2 mile, it does not show BK's known phone in that 1/2 mile range on that warrant 3-5am. Unless he had a phone we do not know about - thinking unknown users warrant. MOO

I did go to smappen where you can actually map 1/2 mile at the King Road residence. I did both on one map (1/2 and 2 mile since warrants covered those distances). Interesting to see how far each is. MOO

The touching wifi is interesting. In my reading (not an expert) routers can extend 150 ft inside/300 feet outside. Longer distances with an extender which many people use. Walls and objects and placement can make a difference. I suspect LE can calculate how close someone is.

I did see quite a few people out and about at that time, on that night, in all the video/bodycam images that have been released. Waiting to hear from the D side about what he was doing those 12 times. Also want to know the timing - were they all the week prior or spread out over six months? And the actual time stamps/day stamps of each time he was in the area and how close he was, if they know.
JMO
I'm sure the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team (CAST) can triangulate BK within a 1/2 mile of the King Rd house on more than one occasion if he was a 1/2 mile of the King Rd house on more than one occasion.

One or more of the CAST experts will testify and have it up on the big screen for all to see.

The FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team​

The FBI maintains a specialized unit called the Cellular Analysis Survey Team, or CAST, that provides analyses of cell phone records and presents the information to law enforcement. We're going to take a look at a recent case in which CAST has played a pivotal role. READ ARTICLE FOR LORI VALLOW CASE

The diagram below shows how by measuring a cell phone's signal strength and the time it takes for a round-trip signal to be sent and received, the approximate location of the cell phone can be determined.

View attachment 431979
In the diagram, each concentric circle represents two miles (3.2 km), so a single cell tower can determine that a phone is between eight and 10 miles (16 km) away and within its alpha sector.

When a cell phone is in contact with a second cell tower, the ability to determine its location is improved, as shown in the diagram below. We see that the signal from the cell phone is coming from within the Blue Tower's alpha sector and from a distance of six to eight miles (10-12.8 km) away.

Data from the second, or Orange Tower, shows the signal is coming from its gamma sector at a distance of eight to twelve miles (12.8-19.3 km).

View attachment 431981
If the cell phone is in contact with a third tower, then its location can be pinpointed to an area of between two to six meters in size. The diagram below shows the signal as coming from the Green Tower's alpha sector and at a distance of between 10 and 12 miles (16-19.3 km).

View attachment 431990
Excellent! TY so much for posting!
Now we need a map of the actual cell towers in Moscow and Pullman to see the sectors used in this case to see how they might overlap.
MOO
 
A few things re: the ABC program

1. I'm surprised WSU doesn't allow TAs to meet with students with the door closed. (I get there could be concerns about male TAs meeting with female students. But it would be very odd IMO to have gender-based rules in this day and age. So is that why all closed doors are supposedly banned?) Usually discussing grades is supposed to be confidential. If other students are waiting outside the door, a door open policy means there cannot be a confidential discussion. Also though, I thought we were told BK shared an office with other grad students. Of that's true, I'm not sure how grade discussions were supposed to happen or how a closed door policy could happen. (And if this item and others related to office hours were supposed to come from other grad students, how would they really know what he did unless they shared an office?)

2. "BK office behavior, he placed himself between the student & the door making it difficult to leave." If BK had a shared office, I'm not sure furniture placement would have been up to him. Was the ABC program reporting he stood during appointments? That's pretty odd so why not say that? Or did they? (And it's sometimes recommended offices be arranged so a professor can easily exit if a student becomes unhinged...that the professor not be trapped. It's not universally recommended student exit be the first priority.)

3. If evening office hours weren't allowed by university policy, I'm surprised no one in authority said anything to BK. Or did his professor say something? Certainly the professor he was TAing for knew or should have known when his office hours were. I'd think that would be on the course syllabus but if not, it would have to be announced during class or put on the course site on Bb (or whatever platform was used)

4. Is everything on the list from his fellow PhD students? They sound like a horrible bunch to me. Classes started in late Aug but well before Nov, a mere 3 months later, they had been frequently talking about him behind his back and keeping a actual list of his oddities? To me, that says just as much, maybe more about the "character" of the other students as it does BK's character. Anyway I'm surprised the grad students knew much about BK's coursework at DeSales or knew anything about the PA arrest. Or did those things not come from them? Did everything but those things come from them?
 JMO
When I was a TA I was discouraged from closing the door by my professor. I was asked to lower my voice when discussing grades and if I needed to close the door for any reason, ask another faculty member or colleague to be present in the room. I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t a legitimately implemented rule at other Universities as it minimizes situations that might result in legal risk. Aka Wanted and unwanted contact and/or words.

Also I remember seeing video of the offices for BKs program. It shared an inner door but his office had its own door and entrance. No different from a dentist office inside of a larger office building or a dept in a hospital. Though no furniture arrangement was shown it’s completely plausible that BK had his setup in such a way that the student was at the far end of the room.

Evening hours just sounds like a way from discouraging students from coming in by making it inconvenient. This inconvenience moves into weird territory because by all indications it sounds like BK was a ghoulish woman hating creep.

Lastly, what’s more likely? That BK was so weird that he put off a bunch of really smart PhD students who were studying criminology? Or that BK was the one who was totally normal and this bunch were really the awful ones?

I often meet people and within an hour I’ve seen enough to never want to see them again. Some people are just that awful and off putting.

MOO
 
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I think he planned a mass murder.
I'm not at all convinced he targeted these victims specifically though many disagree with me.
I don't actually know and open source material and speculation tends to favor these specific victims.
I think it was the house or the house of people rather than one or other or all four.
That is mere speculation on my part.
Not based upon facts.

I'm not sure whether he planned several mass murders or just one because I don't have the remotest idea of what it is he hoped to gain from carrying out such a heinous crime or several.
It always comes back to motive.
There simply must be a motive.
His planning was pretty much impeccable, he was faster than light, in and out.

He could have killed the fifth girl, but chose not to.
Why?
Everybody always looks for a motive- sometimes IMO the motive is as "simple' (if you will) as a thrill kill or to carry out a crime believing they can get away with it because they are so smart. When the trial comes along the prosecution's job is to tell a story which will include what they believe is a motive- juries want to know the motive--even if sometimes a motive isn't really clear or even known.
 
For him to touch their WIFI (if he was outside the house), if their router was 2.4Ghz, indicates that he was within about 300 feet of the house outdoors. This is the average reach.
And if it was 5ghz he would have been within feet depending on the composition of inner walls.

The majority of newer routers and newer phone devices will prioritize 5ghz. This prioritization problem is so bad that people will often split their networks to stop their smart home devices from getting a 5ghz connection. Which most of them don’t support.

I’d bet it was 5ghz. MOO

Edit: added the smart home context
 
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I would expect him to still be running on adrenaline to some extent. But, if it had gotten quiet, he might have assumed he had eliminated everyone he intended and/or needed to and could safely leave. It does sound like he left in a hurry. That suggests that, as long as no one else crossed his path, he was eager to be gone.

EBM: typo
I still have a hard time seeing him driving past the house, repeatedly, without taking note of how many cars were in the driveway. And especially if he had stalked the place for awhile, he had to have known how many people lived there and when boyfriends stayed over. Jmo.
 
I think he planned a mass murder.
I'm not at all convinced he targeted these victims specifically though many disagree with me.
I don't actually know and open source material and speculation tends to favor these specific victims.
I think it was the house or the house of people rather than one or other or all four.
That is mere speculation on my part.
Not based upon facts.

I'm not sure whether he planned several mass murders or just one because I don't have the remotest idea of what it is he hoped to gain from carrying out such a heinous crime or several.
It always comes back to motive.
There simply must be a motive.
His planning was pretty much impeccable, he was faster than light, in and out.

He could have killed the fifth girl, but chose not to.
Why?

He was studying what it felt like to be a mass murdered / serial killer.. I think he was so enthralled in the subject that he fantasized about it and actually did it himself.
 
I don't disassemble my house either, LOL. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. There was a case here locally where a woman disappeared and it was strongly believed her husband killed her. They searched that house off and on for years. They finally realized he had a built-in installed AFTER her disappearance, pulled it and the hardwood floor under it out, and found it on the subfloor. Of course, the victim's free-flowing blood is going to end up in a lot of places that an intruder's DNA won't go.

I do have a question, if you don't mind. <modsnip - rumors not allowed> bleach would have changed the color of the seats and carpet. It would be obvious. Would "oxygen bleach"/Oxyclean do that same sort of damage? It suddenly hit me that some people call that stuff oxygen bleach and, when I googled, I learned that it can be effective at removing blood stains. <modsnip - rumors not allowed> I appreciate any thoughts you might have on that.
I've used Oxyclean extensively for laundry, carpet and rug cleaning and never ever had it change the color of any fabric or carpet or rug. However, I've never used it inside of any vehicle, so I don't know what effect it might have there for certain. What I'm not sure of is what really happens to the stain. For example, my dog went potty on my rug, so I sprayed Oxiclean for carpet on it and blotted per the directions. The stain and odor completely disappeared, but I wonder what kind of remnant of the stain might remain inside the fibers or underneath where it cannot be seen? Is it really 100% gone? I don't know. So I'm not convinced he could have effectively removed a bloodstain to undetectable levels, for example.

JMO
 
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This is exactly what I thought would be released. Looks like the DA agreed to give up' the juror questionnaire, and I'm fine with that. It will prevent the Defense from insinuating there was jury bias to begin with.

MOO
IMO they got more that just the juror questionaire:

This is what the D requested:

This is what the P said:
First Response

Supplemental response

1688135473101.png


Clarification to states response:

1688135676281.png


The order states at the beginning: good cause appearing rule 6.2 (c) AND 6.3(c) and then lists what:

1688135923050.png


I read it as they got the proceedings/record but also exhibit A's list (we don't know what this includes) plus copies of exhibits and the questionaire. To me, the above says the State wanted just the transcript and audio recording and seating of the jury....then show good cause ICR 6.3 (c) for more - see supplemental above. Note the Judges order where good cause appearing and 6.3(c) was referenced before the list of what was ordered. That is just how I read it but IANAL and ICBW. MOO
 
I've used Oxyclean extensively for laundry, carpet and rug cleaning and never ever had it change the color of any fabric or carpet or rug. However, I've never used it inside of any vehicle, so I don't know what effect it might have there for certain. What I'm not sure of is what really happens to the stain. For example, my dog went potty on my rug, so I sprayed Oxiclean for carpet on it and blotted per the directions. The stain and odor completely disappeared, but I wonder what kind of remnant of the stain might remain inside the fibers or underneath where it cannot be seen? Is it really 100% gone? I don't know. So I'm not convinced he could have effectively removed a bloodstain to undetectable levels, for example.

JMO
I personally have suspected it ended up on the pad under the carpet, but I have never yet pulled up any carpet where I used it.
 
I'm sure the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team (CAST) can triangulate BK within a 1/2 mile of the King Rd house on more than one occasion if he was a 1/2 mile of the King Rd house on more than one occasion.

One or more of the CAST experts will testify and have it up on the big screen for all to see.

The FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team​

The FBI maintains a specialized unit called the Cellular Analysis Survey Team, or CAST, that provides analyses of cell phone records and presents the information to law enforcement. We're going to take a look at a recent case in which CAST has played a pivotal role. READ ARTICLE FOR LORI VALLOW CASE

The diagram below shows how by measuring a cell phone's signal strength and the time it takes for a round-trip signal to be sent and received, the approximate location of the cell phone can be determined.

View attachment 431979
In the diagram, each concentric circle represents two miles (3.2 km), so a single cell tower can determine that a phone is between eight and 10 miles (16 km) away and within its alpha sector.

When a cell phone is in contact with a second cell tower, the ability to determine its location is improved, as shown in the diagram below. We see that the signal from the cell phone is coming from within the Blue Tower's alpha sector and from a distance of six to eight miles (10-12.8 km) away.

Data from the second, or Orange Tower, shows the signal is coming from its gamma sector at a distance of eight to twelve miles (12.8-19.3 km).

View attachment 431981
If the cell phone is in contact with a third tower, then its location can be pinpointed to an area of between two to six meters in size. The diagram below shows the signal as coming from the Green Tower's alpha sector and at a distance of between 10 and 12 miles (16-19.3 km).

View attachment 431990
If anyone followed the Murdaugh case, the property where his wife and son were killed was a large, almost 1,000 acre wooded area with supposedly very scant cell service. They were able to place Paul, Maggie, and Alex not only on the property, but at certain PLACES on the property (house, kennels, etc.) via cell phone data. I’m sure they can do the same, if not better, in the cities of Moscow and Pullman.
 
For him to touch their WIFI (if he was outside the house), if their router was 2.4Ghz, indicates that he was within about 300 feet of the house outdoors. This is the average reach.
Seems far. Any idea where the router was placed? The Queen parking is higher, Wifi signal tends down. MOO 300 ft Is for a router placed outside.
 
When I was a TA I was discouraged from closing the door by my professor. I was asked to lower my voice when discussing grades and if I needed to close the door for any reason, ask another faculty member or colleague to be present in the room. I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t a legitimately implemented rule at other Universities as it minimizes situations that might result in legal risk. Aka Wanted and unwanted contact and/or words.

Also I remember seeing video of the offices for BKs program. It shared an inner door but his office had its own door and entrance. No different from a dentist office inside of a larger office building or a dept in a hospital. Though no furniture arrangement was shown it’s completely plausible that BK had his setup in such a way that the student was at the far end of the room.

Evening hours just sounds like a way from discouraging students from coming in by making it inconvenient. This inconvenience moves into weird territory because by all indications it sounds like BK was a ghoulish woman hating creep.

Lastly, what’s more likely? That BK was so weird that he put off a bunch of really smart PhD students who were studying criminology? Or that BK was the one who was totally normal and this bunch were really the awful ones?

I often meet people and within an hour I’ve seen enough to never want to see them again. Some people are just that awful and off putting.

MOO
I wasn't suggesting BK was totally normal BTW. But within weeks it sounds like the other doctoral students formed a kind of a middle school clique, keeping a cute-sy titled list of what BK did that was odd to the group. That seems quite immature and not typical of classmates I had in grad school. Sounds like the doctoral program in CJ at WSU attracted more than one "unusual" person!

These days F2F university classes don't only meet 9-3 so I wouldn't assume evening office hours were necessarily to discourage students. After all, we don't know when the classes BK TAed for met, do we? I wouldn't think if there was more than one TA for a class (& I think BK was 1 of 2 wasn't he?) having office hours at a similar time as the other TA would be a good idea. But anything can be made to sound iffy.

JMO
 
I wasn't suggesting BK was totally normal BTW. But within weeks it sounds like the other doctoral students formed a kind of a middle school clique, keeping a cute-sy titled list of what BK did that was odd to the group. That seems quite immature and not typical of classmates I had in grad school. Sounds like the doctoral program in CJ at WSU attracted more than one "unusual" person!

These days F2F university classes don't only meet 9-3 so I wouldn't assume evening office hours were necessarily to discourage students. After all, we don't know when the classes BK TAed for met, do we? I wouldn't think if there was more than one TA for a class (& I think BK was 1 of 2 wasn't he?) having office hours at a similar time as the other TA would be a good idea. But anything can be made to sound iffy.

JMO
MIO Evening office hours are not friendly, and going to a TAs office at night sounds iffy. A convenience for himself.
 
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I'm sure the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team (CAST) can triangulate BK within a 1/2 mile of the King Rd house on more than one occasion if he was a 1/2 mile of the King Rd house on more than one occasion.

One or more of the CAST experts will testify and have it up on the big screen for all to see.

The FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team​

The FBI maintains a specialized unit called the Cellular Analysis Survey Team, or CAST, that provides analyses of cell phone records and presents the information to law enforcement. We're going to take a look at a recent case in which CAST has played a pivotal role. READ ARTICLE FOR LORI VALLOW CASE

The diagram below shows how by measuring a cell phone's signal strength and the time it takes for a round-trip signal to be sent and received, the approximate location of the cell phone can be determined.

View attachment 431979
In the diagram, each concentric circle represents two miles (3.2 km), so a single cell tower can determine that a phone is between eight and 10 miles (16 km) away and within its alpha sector.

When a cell phone is in contact with a second cell tower, the ability to determine its location is improved, as shown in the diagram below. We see that the signal from the cell phone is coming from within the Blue Tower's alpha sector and from a distance of six to eight miles (10-12.8 km) away.

Data from the second, or Orange Tower, shows the signal is coming from its gamma sector at a distance of eight to twelve miles (12.8-19.3 km).

View attachment 431981
If the cell phone is in contact with a third tower, then its location can be pinpointed to an area of between two to six meters in size. The diagram below shows the signal as coming from the Green Tower's alpha sector and at a distance of between 10 and 12 miles (16-19.3 km).

View attachment 431990
Wanted to add a thought: The one thing the D is still waiting on is the CAST report (mentioned at the last hearing). This report could show a connection to the victims. The D did mention they do have the data though so their expert/investigator can probably tell what it means. Just thinking that they do not have the actual report of what LE thinks it means. JMO
 
RBBM: Good post. Seems feasible to me and within realms of possibility given what is known of BK's attention to detail - as you point out he apparently has the personality required to bother with the minutae of bagging his trash as documented in MSM. Moo

Some threads ago I recall speculating re the time gap between when BK allegedly left Pullman (c.2.53am) and when SV1 (suspect vehicle 1) is mentioned in PCA heading towards 1122 King Rd. on Indian Hills Drive at c3.26am. Depending on the defendant's lead foot propensity there's possibly up to 20 minutes there of time to prep himself and his vehicle in the manner you describe or similar. And east of Moscow in that Indian Hills Drive region there's likely a number of quiet spots to do such. Moo

As for afterwards, my current theory is that defendant took the windy, remote back road to Blaine - Blaine road that intersects with the far eastern section of Palouse/Sand Road to the east of Moscow. Ample opportunity on this road at between 4.20 and 4.50am to pull over and carry out any post murder activities necessary. Such as removing murder clothes and bagging them etc and so forth.

Moo

EBM: spelling
Still wondering about the time gap prior.

I almost posted about the east route a couple days ago: we think alike :)
That east route would fill up the 28 minutes without missing time - maybe that time in the morning would be faster travel? Not sure if there would be time to pull over though? And I wonder what that road looks like at night re lighting and maneuverability. Rural roads where I live are quite narrow and difficult to drive (need to look at street view!). It would also depend on where exactly LE picked him up North of Genesee. I mapped it where that road intersects with 95 at Blaine.
LEs map does seem to show travel down 95 though.
JMO
 
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