4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

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If you read the fine print when you purchase something, anything, you'll find paying consumers don't have any rights when it comes to law enforcement investigating crimes.

The DNA on the knife sheath IS incredibly strong EVIDENCE that the jury will not ignore.

JMO

It goes beyond the scope of Idaho murders, but:

- Gedmatch assures us that only opted-in DNAs are used for LE comparison. It is not fine print. It is a form of legal consent.

- another company sells bulk DNA to pharmaceutical companies without consent, but if you want your DNA to be used for medical research, you have to opt in. We did not, and yet twice I found one of the DNAs I curated to be opted in. It ended up in a scandal with their HR till it finally got fixed. A bug? The owner is too close to IT to allow bugs. Or they just change things per their whim? Then how is it different from the Harvard bone case?

This case has nothing to do with LE.

DNA.land was studying breast cancer. They asked for DNAs, male and female, with or without history. For research, I uploaded all DNAs I curated for free. I hope it helps research, but the company went out of business because of horrible privacy practices.

In short, there should be some laws about DNA, and soon. It is very far from fine print.
 
So if he was wearing regular pants with a belt, with the knife in the sheath on the belt, might that not indicate that he did indeed strip before the murders, as suggested by some sleuthers?

I really hate to say this because it's just so grim... or the perpetrator unbelted his pants when in the room with M & K and the sheath slid off?

Having said that to my mind, if he went out in a 'stalking / housebreaking / assaulting / kill' outfit, I suspect it would have been something dark and extremely thin and lightweight, possibly waterproof, like running gear, not the sort of clothing that has a belt around the waist.

If he went creeping up to that house, he's not going to go in with a huge knife and sheath belted to the outside of his garments, he would however want fast and unimpeded access to it in case of unexpected attack or confrontation. So, maybe he had it slid inside his garments maybe held in place like a sort of holster but it came loose? or up his sleeve or pushed into the waist of elastic pants (unsure of dimensions), even clipped on his leg under long pants.
 
To me it sounded like a group of women comparing notes and taking steps to look out for each other. Wasn’t there a line in there about making sure none of them got trapped alone with him?

IMO it’s good that the messages are finally getting out there to young women (and any potential victims)—trust your gut when something feels wrong, and don’t be afraid to say no to something that’s making you uncomfortable.
There was one person in particular they made sure wasn't alone with him. I'm not certain I remember exactly why, so I won't say and confuse the discussion. I do remember that what they tracked wasn't just about student interactions with him. For example, they also tracked how often he interrupted female professors.
 
I wasn't suggesting BK was totally normal BTW. But within weeks it sounds like the other doctoral students formed a kind of a middle school clique, keeping a cute-sy titled list of what BK did that was odd to the group. That seems quite immature and not typical of classmates I had in grad school. Sounds like the doctoral program in CJ at WSU attracted more than one "unusual" person!

These days F2F university classes don't only meet 9-3 so I wouldn't assume evening office hours were necessarily to discourage students. After all, we don't know when the classes BK TAed for met, do we? I wouldn't think if there was more than one TA for a class (& I think BK was 1 of 2 wasn't he?) having office hours at a similar time as the other TA would be a good idea. But anything can be made to sound iffy.

JMO
BBM. Considering what BK is now accused of, I don’t consider the grads’ behavior to be “cutesy or ”immature.” IMO the “clique” was practicing self preservation.
 
I agree. All I see is evidence of immaturity on behalf of the students. I understand, the teacher's qualities are complex. It takes a lot to be liked by students. (Look at the wonderful reviews of TM, the professor, in the other case. And he is a horrible human being!)


Now, I assume for TA, humor is very important, and I suspect BK didn't have it. This is a minus but not his fault. It is hard to be liked by everyone. If you grade female students well, you might be showing a preference, if you don't, you hate them. I think in BK's case, the verdict is leaning towards "hating them" and it would be interesting and thought-provoking, if only we could believe it. But coming from the journalists, who basically put the answer into the mouth of the guy they interviewed, I don't know how reliable it is.

I think not everyone should be treated with kid gloves. Given how much time and money is spent on this case, we have to ask the students to please, be accountable adults. In WSU, for what they say to the press. In UI, how come the CS was contaminated.
BK by all accounts had domineering aggressive behavior.
Before WSU and obviously at WSU.

MOO His main issue apparently was with a male professor. Did I get this wrong, was his advising professor a woman?

Also why would students not note a TA who interrupted professors?

These criminology students were exposed to a alleged killer in their class. They noticed behaviors.

One thing about a lot of killers of women is that they have noticable issues in general with "women."

MOO these issues are why killers of women often complain that the "attractive women" won't date them.
Their issues and lack of insight is off putting and even frightening.

A large, uninsghtful, obviously fit male dominating discussions in class no doubt was really detrimental to a more normal collegial discussion between all students in these PhD classes.
Sadly, for everyone the same lack of insight that also prevent women killers from making making changes and become more attractive to the people they ostensible want to be close too.
 
Maybe. Of course, for all we know some or many of the list items were added after the fact. For example, they noted BK cut class the day after the murders. I do not believe these grad students immediately thought he committed the crime so why did they notice he was absent? Were they taking his attendance daily? That sounds like an extraordinarily odd thing for a bunch of grad students to do. (And I seriously doubt BK was the only new doctoral student that year-- so the group had to be at least partly new-- They wouldn't have had a longstanding "list practice" that included taking attendance, I wouldn't think.) Honestly, I expect the absence was added to the Tally after the arrest.

So I'm not convinced they were perceptive vs immature and cliquish. But IF they had identified so many policy violations and apparently had told no one, they just put it on their list entitled "Bryan Tally" I don't find their actions exemplary. Of course, people may not want to be tattletales but most people wouldn't share tales with ABC reporters either!
JMO

Maybe they thought he was being consulted or deployed as a part of the investigations team as a result of the extreme horror.

I'm sure everyone was in shock and as he was some nerdy forensics dude who wanted to work with LE, they might have assumed his skills were needed. Or at least just called in for manpower assistance, manual searching of grounds and the likes. Leastways, that's what I'd think.

Maybe that's what he hoped for - roundabout way of making himself invaluable to LE? Cause the problem and then transpire to be a really useful bright spark helping the investigations... :O
 
BBM. Considering what BK is now accused of, I don’t consider the grads’ behavior to be “cutesy or ”immature.” IMO the “clique” was practicing self preservation.
Yes. Reported by a friend of BKs ("popular"?) girls in high school would not talk to him. They had the same reaction. Not sure if all girls, or basically the cheerleaders.
 
We have no evidence that they did. So for me, "apparently" they told no one as I said in my earlier post.

Groups documenting events (vs affected individuals doing it independently) can lead to group think. And if the grad students were really keeping a list of the sort you describe, I'm not sure they would have named it 'Bryan Tally." I didn't see that they noted on the list he skipped classes if a female taught them. But I see from @Sundog's post (thanks BTW) that according to the ABC special, behavior in grad classes is why the Tally was started. I still find it odd though because much of it does not relate to grad classes. It just seems to be a free-wheeling list of "Why I don't like BK." That's not especially mature group behavior IMO.
JMO

I find it perfectly believable. I don't think I know any women who bring up issues like this for no reason at all.

Did you listen to the podcast? I think it was well done and one of the few pieces of investigative journalism we have on this case. It's not perfect, but she carefully explained why she (the journalist) believed the two women.

Of course they would name it "Bryan Tally" or something like it. <modsnip - off topic>

The point is that a qualified MSM journalist did her job.

IMO.
 
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There was one person in particular they made sure wasn't alone with him. I'm not certain I remember exactly why, so I won't say and confuse the discussion. I do remember that what they tracked wasn't just about student interactions with him. For example, they also tracked how often he interrupted female professors.

Were the students keeping tally hoping to mount an argument that BK was a bully of women whom they suspect he viewed inferior in general? Were they hoping to record, document, and present this to college authorities in a very formal statistically proven way?

In which case, is it possible that BK really was this way? And as such was a ticking time bomb of rage against women along the lines of 'incel'? JMO MOO
 
BBM. Considering what BK is now accused of, I don’t consider the grads’ behavior to be “cutesy or ”immature.” IMO the “clique” was practicing self preservation.

Amen. I wrote a rather lengthy post about my own grad school cohort and a man who later made headline news. We women ranged from very assertive (me) to quietly documenting (from past experience, two women had learned to do this - these women were anthropologists who, like criminologists, are TRAINED to tally ongoing observational experience as part of their discipline!) I deleted it because...following rules. But I think it's fair to say that this kind of thing is an essential part of the toolkit for people of color and for women, especially in male dominated settings.

Most of the profs in the first year Pullman criminology program were men, AFAIK. The students appear to have included at least half women - which is great, because we truly need more women in the field.

I find it fascinating that a man in the field would attempt to block women's understanding of crime through actions like the ones mentioned to the ABC reporter (who did a fantastic job, IMO, with getting those interviews).

I would expect nothing less from women who are studying criminology, sociology, psychology or anthropology - and frankly, the women in the History department had by far the greater numbers of documented issues that I knew of - but that's likely because there were so very many students in that program). I have also seen some men organizing against another man - but more often, it's an attack on women - individually and as a group - that starts the tally keeping. "Attack" being broadly construed (example: the man in my program was caught breaking into the admin assist's filing cabinet to obtain everyone's GRE scores and transcripts - kind of red flag, it was; he was NOT friends with the admin assist after that - but the rest of us were and she was perturbed and a bit anxious about him - he went on to do much worse). And I have witnessed women who are deans and administrators take a man's side in these instances, only to later have to go public to say they should have studied the situation and listened more. Some of these cases are in the news - this is not the first case of a problem grad student.

IMO. IME.
 
I am not on board the whole plastic covered car thing or donning whole PPE. Even if there would plastic in the car - say removing clothing into a bag - would the bag remain free of blood - stuffing bloody clothing or shoes into it? then placing it in the car on plastic - no touching the car anywhere/no smudges blood drops on transferring the bag/items to the car. If the car had some type of covering (plastic) that covering at some point would have to be removed from the car without transfering the blood on it to any spot on the car. All just my thoughts tumbling - no conclusions. MOO

I'm the one who posted a long rumination about protecting the inside of the car.

When I was writing that, I was drawing from some of my life experiences. I'm a very meticulous person and I hate messes--when I'm painting a room, the floor is carefully covered and all trim is taped off. So you can imagine my total lack of joy several years ago when my teenage son wanted me to take him and five of his friends to go paintballing for his birthday during what had been a pretty rainy early fall. In the middle of nowhere, with primitive bathrooms and no changing areas. But, it was his birthday so....

When the kids were done after 3 hours, they were covered in paint and wet mud from head to toe, literally. I had instructed the kids to all bring a spare pair of shoes and to wear t-shirts under their hoodies. When they came out to my mini van, I had their shoes lined up outside it and they all kicked their shoes off and put them in small garbage bags, ditto with their hoodies. Bags went into the trunk on top of a plastic tarp. Luckily they had been able to at least wash their hands at the place, so that helped. While I didn't plastic the inside of my car like Dexter, I had all the seats covered with thick beach towels, making sure to cover all the way down to the floor where the backs of their pants legs would be resting against the seats. I had baby wipes for them to clean off any mud/paint that got on their hands as they were taking off shoes and hoodies and bagging them.

My mini van came out unscathed, despite having 6 filthy teens hopped up on adrenaline, sugar, and caffeine in it.
 
I'd have to know more about the schedule of classes to make the statement it's definitely unfriendly. For a dept with evening classes, I don't think it's unfriendly (or iffy.) For a class that meets in late afternoon/early evening, not weird. For athletes who have afternoon practices from 2-5, a TA with evening hours is not unfriendly.
JMO

The class in question was an undergraduate, freshman level class that met and still meets in the morning.

Night time office hours are almost unheard of.

Many reasons. Even full professors can't get away with it, in terms of the evaluation process. Of course, there's nothing to do to a full professor who does something this weird, but basically, it is easily perceived by deans and department chairs as an effort to decrease student interaction/traffic to the office hour. Office hours are supposed to be scheduled at convenient times (preferably just at that point in the daytime schedule where most regular lecture classes end - about 1 in the afternoon, many places).

It also affects student safety.

Putting one's office hours at night or on Saturdays or late on a Friday are all regarded within academia as standard but foolish attempts by (lazy? avoidant?) teachers to avoid student interaction (which is part of the job).

Where I work, that person would not be invited back on that basis alone. Since BK had altercations with the First Year Mentor (Snyder), perhaps it was over this issue - as Snyder would certainly have been required to let the guy know this was NOT okay. During the entire tenure process (at every college/university that I've worked), office hours are expected to be set at optimal times for students. 6 am is frowned upon as well. 8 am is barely acceptable (I have done it - one time a week - out of 4 office hours; I did it as the department chair and senior member of the department - because faculty avail themselves of others' office hours as well). No students came by.

At a time when women are being offered escorts, free rides and so on (at university expense) in order to meet accreditation standards for safety on campus, we are all given notice at many levels that night time classes should likely end earlier, and that provisions be in place for non-night time offerings of the same material (hence the popularity of online courses),

I should add that men can get escorts too. Where I work, both sexes have their choice of a man or woman to accompany them (and I just learned that by far, women would prefer a man to accompany if they are frightened enough to contact the service in the first place). That was the role of the guy who walked KG and MM from the food truck. Where I work, almost no men ask for the service. But then again, there have been no rapes of men on our campus (ever, that I know of) and no recent assaults either.

IME. IMO.

And I do believe that it's possible that any or all of his fellow grad students suspected him of the murders right away. Suspicions come in waves and in varieties. I'd be very, very surprised if no one in a criminology program (including the faculty) would not have at least considered it, given the altercations and the misogyny. In fact, I harbor a theory that Prof Snyder himself likely contacted WSU police (or U of I police) regarding the murders and may have mentioned Kohberger. This would explain the State's keen desire to keep all witnesses secret, to have them in front of a GJ, to be reluctant to give Kohberger that list of people until trial. If for any reason, this man is let out of jail, no one wants to have these witnesses known to him.

I'd bet good money that at least 1 person (outside of police) at WSU did in fact suspect him and further, that they mentioned it to someone else.

IMO.
 
The podcast said that the anonymous doctoral classmate reported that they kept the "Bryan Tally" list because, in their opinion, BK had shown "disrespect" toward the female professors in their program. The term "disdain" was not used.

And the examples given of showing "disrespect" was that he skipped female professors' classes at times, and that they felt he "interrupted" his female professors too often, according to their views.
Confrontations.
 
BBM. Considering what BK is now accused of, I don’t consider the grads’ behavior to be “cutesy or ”immature.” IMO the “clique” was practicing self preservation.
The spokesperson for the Beyan Tally group apparently said the list was started because they noticed BK "disrespected" female professors. They said he cut their classes more than those of male professors (although why that was their business....and if he was so awful in class, you'd think they would have been glad he wasn't there.)
I can't really see keeping a Bryan Tally was self-preservation simply because BK was later arrested for an awful crime. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of men who don't seem to respect women professionals are not physically dangerous. And much of what reportedly was on the Tally-- like supposed policy violations-- didn't relate to self-protection for the grad students.

I don't know what the grad students saw but BK's master's advisor was female.
JMO
 
We have no evidence that they did. So for me, "apparently" they told no one as I said in my earlier post.

Groups documenting events (vs affected individuals doing it independently) can lead to group think. And if the grad students were really keeping a list of the sort you describe, I'm not sure they would have named it 'Bryan Tally." I didn't see that they noted on the list he skipped classes if a female taught them. But I see from @Sundog's post (thanks BTW) that according to the ABC special, behavior in grad classes is why the Tally was started. I still find it odd though because much of it does not relate to grad classes. It just seems to be a free-wheeling list of "Why I don't like BK." That's not especially mature group behavior IMO.
JMO
RBBM.
Well, to end this circular argument, I do recall an example. I believe the student's complained to BK's professor that there were problems, whereby the professor (much criticized here) gave the student's and BK an open forum to discuss their concerns.
 
I find it perfectly believable. I don't think I know any women who bring up issues like this for no reason at all.

Did you listen to the podcast? I think it was well done and one of the few pieces of investigative journalism we have on this case. It's not perfect, but she carefully explained why she (the journalist) believed the two women.

Of course they would name it "Bryan Tally" or something like it. I wrote a whole post about my own grad school experience (which ended up with expulsion of a man - which made national headlines, because it was major escalated behavior occurring in his sixth year of graduate school - and involved international relations and much else). I deleted it due to the rules. I see behavior from students of this kind on the daily. But again, that's not the point.

The point is that a qualified MSM journalist did her job.

IMO.
I listened to it and was pleasantly surprised. Some new tidbits in the episodes, but she has mostly resisted the temptation to go for the dramatic for the audio version of clicks. I particularly noted that in the episode about his background. She didn't jump on every odd thing about him as "evidence" something like this was inevitable.
 
The spokesperson for the Beyan Tally group apparently said the list was started because they noticed BK "disrespected" female professors. They said he cut their classes more than those of male professors (although why that was their business....and if he was so awful in class, you'd think they would have been glad he wasn't there.)
I can't really see keeping a Bryan Tally was self-preservation simply because BK was later arrested for an awful crime. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of men who don't seem to respect women professionals are not physically dangerous. And much of what reportedly was on the Tally-- like supposed policy violations-- didn't relate to self-protection for the grad students.

I don't know what the grad students saw but BK's master's advisor was female.
JMO
In one of the earlier articles, it was mentioned that he graded females more harshly than males. The Tally might have been a means of showing that all his interactions with women were problematic. MOOooo
 
The spokesperson for the Beyan Tally group apparently said the list was started because they noticed BK "disrespected" female professors. They said he cut their classes more than those of male professors (although why that was their business....and if he was so awful in class, you'd think they would have been glad he wasn't there.)
I can't really see keeping a Bryan Tally was self-preservation simply because BK was later arrested for an awful crime. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of men who don't seem to respect women professionals are not physically dangerous. And much of what reportedly was on the Tally-- like supposed policy violations-- didn't relate to self-protection for the grad students.

I don't know what the grad students saw but BK's master's advisor was female.
JMO

Is this not his advising faculty?
 
The class in question was an undergraduate, freshman level class that met and still meets in the morning.

Night time office hours are almost unheard of.

Many reasons. Even full professors can't get away with it, in terms of the evaluation process. Of course, there's nothing to do to a full professor who does something this weird, but basically, it is easily perceived by deans and department chairs as an effort to decrease student interaction/traffic to the office hour. Office hours are supposed to be scheduled at convenient times (preferably just at that point in the daytime schedule where most regular lecture classes end - about 1 in the afternoon, many places).

It also affects student safety.

Putting one's office hours at night or on Saturdays or late on a Friday are all regarded within academia as standard but foolish attempts by (lazy? avoidant?) teachers to avoid student interaction (which is part of the job).

Where I work, that person would not be invited back on that basis alone. Since BK had altercations with the First Year Mentor (Snyder), perhaps it was over this issue - as Snyder would certainly have been required to let the guy know this was NOT okay. During the entire tenure process (at every college/university that I've worked), office hours are expected to be set at optimal times for students. 6 am is frowned upon as well. 8 am is barely acceptable (I have done it - one time a week - out of 4 office hours; I did it as the department chair and senior member of the department - because faculty avail themselves of others' office hours as well). No students came by.

At a time when women are being offered escorts, free rides and so on (at university expense) in order to meet accreditation standards for safety on campus, we are all given notice at many levels that night time classes should likely end earlier, and that provisions be in place for non-night time offerings of the same material (hence the popularity of online courses),

I should add that men can get escorts too. Where I work, both sexes have their choice of a man or woman to accompany them (and I just learned that by far, women would prefer a man to accompany if they are frightened enough to contact the service in the first place). That was the role of the guy who walked KG and MM from the food truck. Where I work, almost no men ask for the service. But then again, there have been no rapes of men on our campus (ever, that I know of) and no recent assaults either.

IME. IMO.

And I do believe that it's possible that any or all of his fellow grad students suspected him of the murders right away. Suspicions come in waves and in varieties. I'd be very, very surprised if no one in a criminology program (including the faculty) would not have at least considered it, given the altercations and the misogyny. In fact, I harbor a theory that Prof Snyder himself likely contacted WSU police (or U of I police) regarding the murders and may have mentioned Kohberger. This would explain the State's keen desire to keep all witnesses secret, to have them in front of a GJ, to be reluctant to give Kohberger that list of people until trial. If for any reason, this man is let out of jail, no one wants to have these witnesses known to him.

I'd bet good money that at least 1 person (outside of police) at WSU did in fact suspect him and further, that they mentioned it to someone else.

IMO.
My academic experience is quite different from yours. Night office hours did occur both in my doctoral dept as well as in the dept where I worked for many years. There were night classes meeting (on week nights, not weekends) and the buildings were not at all deserted at night. It may be different at WSU and it may be different in general now in terms of safety concerns.

I thought BK was a TA for two of Snyder's classes. The only syllabus I've seen of Snyder's is from 2020 and does not mention TAs at all. Not even once. So I don't know what his expectations were. And I've not seen a fall 2022 schedule to see when he taught. I would find it very odd if Snyder knew from the start of the semester that BK was holding "prohibited" night office hours for his class. (Certainly Snyder should have known when BK's hours were.) Yet he couldn't make him change that?

I don't think the morning after the Idaho murders Washington State grad students suspected BK did it. I just don't. But maybe we'll eventually find out.
JMO
 
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