4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[10ofRods]

The podcast said that the anonymous doctoral classmate reported that they kept the "Bryan Tally" list because, in their opinion, BK had shown "disrespect" toward the female professors in their program. The term "disdain" was not used.

And the examples given of showing "disrespect" was that he skipped female professors' classes at times, and that they felt he "interrupted" his female professors too often, according to their views.

From the podcast and prior sources:

And that he locked eyes with women and did so in a manner that was deemed personally inappropriate. But there's more.

He got between his students and the door in his office space and other spaces.

He argued vociferously with one woman grad student, so that she departed the seminar.

He followed a woman to her car.

Disrespect sounds like a good initial evaluation of the category into which to put these behaviors. However, the following and the door blocking go beyond disrespect, in my opinion. So do the night time office hours. And of course the offer to install cameras (while getting a router password) is not "disrespect" at all, it looks helpful, right?

Earlier we learned that on his one Tinder date, he followed a woman to her bathroom door. I have some theories about how he got that way, still mulling. The night time office hours and the door blocking are particularly concerning and I surely do hope that anyone who notices these behaviors in their own lives (whether you're a man or a woman) would do their best to document and report to whoever seems appropriate. Obviously, it has to happen more than once and it would require documenting to whom it was done (by age, perceived gender, ethnicity, and with any other details that could make it clear what might be going on). Nothing wrong with having eyes and using one's voice.

IMO.

 

[rainbowshummingbird]

The spokesperson for the Beyan Tally group apparently said the list was started because they noticed BK "disrespected" female professors. They said he cut their classes more than those of male professors (although why that was their business....and if he was so awful in class, you'd think they would have been glad he wasn't there.)
I can't really see keeping a Bryan Tally was self-preservation simply because BK was later arrested for an awful crime. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of men who don't seem to respect women professionals are not physically dangerous. And much of what reportedly was on the Tally-- like supposed policy violations-- didn't relate to self-protection for the grad students.

I don't know what the grad students saw but BK's master's advisor was female.
JMO

BBM
You do realize that women can’t simply look at a man and know whether he will abuse, assault or murder them. Because of this, women often practice vigilance and look for signs to indicate a man’s propensity for violence.

 

[NCWatcher]

In one of the earlier articles, it was mentioned that he graded females more harshly than males. The Tally might have been a means of showing that all his interactions with women were problematic. MOOooo

But how would the grad students have known about BK's grading early on? And why would a bunch of grad students decide to take that on? The woman in the ABC show didn't mention that. She only mentioned BK interrupting female profs and cutting class. (Of course, supposedly that accusation about grading was unfounded.)

I got to say grad school at WSU must be a lot easier than my grad program. The last thing I'd have had time to do as a grad student was be on a informal "committee" to track another student's behavior, interactions, and policy violations!
JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I listened to it and was pleasantly surprised. Some new tidbits in the episodes, but she has mostly resisted the temptation to go for the dramatic for the audio version of clicks. I particularly noted that in the episode about his background. She didn't jump on every odd thing about him as "evidence" something like this was inevitable.

For me, she did a good job humanizing Kohberger and developing some sympathy for him. I think she might even be able, with her stance, to eventually interview one of the Kohberger family. She's very careful with how she uses her interview data.

Wish I could remember her name.

BBM
You do realize that women can’t simply look at a man and know whether he will abuse, assault or murder them. Because of this, women often practice vigilance and look for signs to indicate a man’s propensity for violence.

There's some irony here. That's EXACTLY what a criminologist is trained to do. For most graduate students, they basically apply the tenets of their discipline as often and as extensively as they can - on each other. Women medical students are examined by men medical students at many medical schools (and vice versa). It's voluntary, of course, to be examined - but lots of women volunteer and have huge bravado about it.

Criminologists are looking for signs of criminal behavior. Full stop. That's what they do. Then they analyze. Women in criminology right now are all about how to note early warning signs. The reason should be obvious. That's what criminologists do and it's very much needed.

Many other disciplines operate in parallel with this (criminology, like anthropology, is a small field).

IMO.

 

[NCWatcher]

BBM
You do realize that women can’t simply look at a man and know whether he will abuse, assault or murder them. Because of this, women often practice vigilance and look for signs to indicate a man’s propensity for violence.

There is no evidence the Bryan Tally group was composed of only women.

As a woman, I do not think every man I encounter might murder me. So I don't search for signs. At any rate, the spokesperson for the Tally group said the list was started because they thought BK skipped female professors classes more than those of male professors. That is not a "sign of a man's propensity for violence" IMO.
JMO

 

[Boxer]

But how would the grad students have known about BK's grading early on? And why would a bunch of grad students decide to take that on? The woman in the ABC show didn't mention that. She only mentioned BK interrupting female profs and cutting class. (Of course, supposedly that accusation about grading was unfounded.)

I got to say grad school at WSU must be a lot easier than my grad program. The last thing I'd have had time to do as a grad student was be on a informal "committee" to track another student's behavior, interactions, and policy violations!
JMO

Takes a minute. What you seem to be saying is BK was the victim of group of students who tracked his behavior.

His behavior is well documented as aggressive and domineering.
Why is what they did in response of any concern? Likely they were making sure they could back up any complaint they ultimately umade.

 

[Boxer]

There is no evidence the Bryan Tally group was composed of only women.

As a woman, I do not think every man I encounter might murder me. So I don't search for signs. At any rate, the spokesperson for the Tally group said the list was started because they thought BK skipped female professors classes more than those of male professors. That is not a "sign of a man's propensity for violence" IMO.
JMO

Did you see a different Professer Snyder at WSU?

John Snyder | Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology | Washington State University

crmj.wsu.edu

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

From the podcast and prior sources:

And that he locked eyes with women and did so in a manner that was deemed personally inappropriate. But there's more.

He got between his students and the door in his office space and other spaces.

He argued vociferously with one woman grad student, so that she departed the seminar.

He followed a woman to her car.

Disrespect sounds like a good initial evaluation of the category into which to put these behaviors. However, the following and the door blocking go beyond disrespect, in my opinion. So do the night time office hours. And of course the offer to install cameras (while getting a router password) is not "disrespect" at all, it looks helpful, right?

Earlier we learned that on his one Tinder date, he followed a woman to her bathroom door. I have some theories about how he got that way, still mulling. The night time office hours and the door blocking are particularly concerning and I surely do hope that anyone who notices these behaviors in their own lives (whether you're a man or a woman) would do their best to document and report to whoever seems appropriate. Obviously, it has to happen more than once and it would require documenting to whom it was done (by age, perceived gender, ethnicity, and with any other details that could make it clear what might be going on). Nothing wrong with having eyes and using one's voice.

IMO.

I personally don't think those examples describe disrespect, they describe intimidation and physically positioning himself (a tall, athletically fit, man) in spaces. I am a tall person and have to constantly remind myself that small people can find me frightening even though I'm a gentle person and have a right to take up my own space, that's not how some people view it and some people love to play the victim and it's so easy to claim a bigger person has been intimidatory or bullying.

It could also be argued that BK meant no harm but lacked social skills or was socially inappropriate due to being neuro-diverse, learning disabled, having some form of limited capacity to comprehend interpersonal nuance, or being very self-unaware, etc.

What did male students and colleagues feel about his interactions with them? I recall his male neighbour said he felt a bit weird about BK trying to engage him in conversation and would avoid him - that would point to BK being somewhat needy and inappropriate but not menacing.

Bearing in mind this is now the same person we know is looking at a possible death sentence for a quadruple murder then maybe the concerns of female students and employees should have been taken far more seriously and maybe they were reading it right?

 

[al66pine]

Fellow Grad Students' "Bryan Tally" on ABC podcast?

.... podcast ABC King Road Killings,... E4 Who is BK?....

• BK's fellow phd students, so disturbed by BK's behavior, began keeping/tracking his OFF/odd behavior, especially with females, on something they called the "Bryan Tally." (How disliked do you have to be to have fellow mates start keeping score/track? )....

....
ABC Audio the king-road-killings are here.

(sbm)
From post by @NCWatcher:*
"....4. Is everything on the list from his fellow PhD students?.... Classes started...a mere 3 months later, they had been... keeping a actual list of his oddities? To me, that says just as much, maybe more about the "character" of the other students as it does BK's character...." (sbm)

Snipped for focus @I'm Nobody @NCWatcher
I've seen behavior similar to ^ tally by a few senior officers in home office in the corp. world of a NYSE traded company. Like students on elem. school playground or in middle school lunchroom? Whatever. It is what it is.

Nevertheless, is it relevant to BK's guilt re the four murders & felony burglary w which he is charged?
Personally doubt that (proffered) testimony about this would be admissible at trial. jmo. icbw

ETA: The King Road Killings: An Idaho Murder Mystery Podcast - ABC Audio

ETA #2: I posted w'out having listened to this podcast so may have missed some critical points which might have changed my thoughts here. IDK.
______________________________
* 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

 

[NCWatcher]

Takes a minute. What you seem to be saying is BK was the victim of group of students who tracked his behavior.

His behavior is well documented as aggressive and domineering.
Why is what they did in response of any concern? Likely they were making sure they could back up any complaint they ultimately umade.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I never said BK was a victim. And whether it's a concern of mine would seem to be up to me, wouldn't it?

You might be right that's why the students got together in a group early on to create a "Bryan Tally." That they did plan to complain about him. That's not what the spokesperson apparently said on the show on ABC but maybe they were really doing that. I do find that behavior very unusual for a group of grad students. And while you say his "behavior is well documented as aggressive and domineering" that's not completely true IMO. Much of what has been said was said after the fact. (Hindsight is usually great.) And there's been a tendency to blow off comments that aren't damaging. Further much of what has been said has been attributed to anonymous sources.

He was able to hold it together well enough to be admitted to both a master's and a doctoral program. That did require letters of recommendation from faculty (like his female master's advisor for the doctoral program.) And if WSU didn't require a pre-admittance interview, certainly somebody must have done a phone interview. So many things are now being seen as "signs" he would murder. The expression in his eyes, his bad driving, his interrupting female professors, his theft of his sister's phone, his violation of WSU policies... If those were all signs, I'm surprised the murder rate isn't 10 times as high as it is.
 JMO

 

[Lilbitcurious]

I’m sorry to just randomly drop this thought in here, but it’s something I can’t seem to move from. In my thinking- the perpetrator left the scene with an uncovered blade?! So maybe the blade did NOT leave the scene?! Just a thought mind you. Of my own.

 

[Boxer]

I’m sorry to just randomly drop this thought in here, but it’s something I can’t seem to move from. In my thinking- the perpetrator left the scene with an uncovered blade?! So maybe the blade did NOT leave the scene?! Just a thought mind you. Of my own.

Thought the same. When they found the sheath maybe that's when / why detectives called HVAC.

 

[Boxer]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I never said BK was a victim. And whether it's a concern of mine would seem to be up to me, wouldn't it?

You might be right that's why the students got together in a group early on to create a "Bryan Tally." That they did plan to complain about him. That's not what the spokesperson apparently said on the show on ABC but maybe they were really doing that. I do find that behavior very unusual for a group of grad students. And while you say his "behavior is well documented as aggressive and domineering" that's not completely true IMO. Much of what has been said was said after the fact. (Hindsight is usually great.) And there's been a tendency to blow off comments that aren't damaging. Further much of what has been said has been attributed to anonymous sources.

He was able to hold it together well enough to be admitted to both a master's and a doctoral program. That did require letters of recommendation from faculty (like his female master's advisor for the doctoral program.) And if WSU didn't require a pre-admittance interview, certainly somebody must have done a phone interview. So many things are now being seen as "signs" he would murder. The expression in his eyes, his bad driving, his interrupting female professors, his theft of his sister's phone, his violation of WSU policies... If those were all signs, I'm surprised the murder rate isn't 10 times as high as it is.
 JMO

Not sure what your point is.
That his behaviors are pretty normal?
Maybe looking for red flags in hindight is too biased to be useful?

His professor was male, and BKs confrontations with him are almost certainly why he was let go from the TA program.

 

[DizzyB]

I’m sorry to just randomly drop this thought in here, but it’s something I can’t seem to move from. In my thinking- the perpetrator left the scene with an uncovered blade?! So maybe the blade did NOT leave the scene?! Just a thought mind you. Of my own.

I’ve always thought he heard someone and made his way downstairs, deviating from whatever plan he had.

How did he carry the sheathed knife into the house, and unsheathed out? If your pants don’t have belt loops, how do you carry a Ka-bar? Do you have a fanny pack or a backpack/knapsack, or approach the house with sheath in hand?

 

[Lilbitcurious]

Sorry here’s another random thought from me- if you were to spend all that time gaining a masters degree and then to be pursuing a PHD I’m kinda wondering why? To plan the perfect crime(which it’s obv it’s not) and get away with it after learning all about the techniques you could use to “get away with it” ? So just study and learn for years to throw it all away? It doesn’t make sense IMO

 

[maskedwoman]

Were the students keeping tally hoping to mount an argument that BK was a bully of women whom they suspect he viewed inferior in general? Were they hoping to record, document, and present this to college authorities in a very formal statistically proven way?

In which case, is it possible that BK really was this way? And as such was a ticking time bomb of rage against women along the lines of 'incel'? JMO MOO

I believe it all started with his appearing to grade females more harshly. So that's probably why they tracked his interactions with women. Based on what we've heard about him, I think BK really is this way. It's been reported that he has asked servers where they live, and creeped out the staff at that local bar and grill to the point that the owner talked to him about it. He never returned to that bar again. It seems that he is both very poor at social cues AND does not like being called out about it.

We don't know what BK's self-talk was like. People who have "issues" can convince themselves of odd things as a coping mechanism. The neighbor in his apartment said BK's Dad tried to line them up as friends when BK moved to Idaho, which struck me as pretty strange for someone of BK's age. This is a grown man, not a 7 year old changing schools. Did he blame his parents hovering/"interfering" for his inability to attract women? Did he move across the country, thinking that being on his own would fix it? And when that didn't happen, how would someone like that react? He probably wouldn't realize that repeatedly "sliding into" the girls DMs" (assuming that is true) would be considered creepy. He probably thought he was being friendly. If he was still ignored, I certainly think that could make him angry enough to strike out. MOOooo

 

[MyBelle]

It goes beyond the scope of Idaho murders, but:

- Gedmatch assures us that only opted-in DNAs are used for LE comparison. It is not fine print. It is a form of legal consent.

- another company sells bulk DNA to pharmaceutical companies without consent, but if you want your DNA to be used for medical research, you have to opt in. We did not, and yet twice I found one of the DNAs I curated to be opted in. It ended up in a scandal with their HR till it finally got fixed. A bug? The owner is too close to IT to allow bugs. Or they just change things per their whim? Then how is it different from the Harvard bone case?

This case has nothing to do with LE.

DNA.Land - ISOGG Wiki

isogg.org

DNA.land was studying breast cancer. They asked for DNAs, male and female, with or without history. For research, I uploaded all DNAs I curated for free. I hope it helps research, but the company went out of business because of horrible privacy practices.

In short, there should be some laws about DNA, and soon. It is very far from fine print.

I do believe the Patriot Act will prevail as the law governing LE's ability to investigate crimes.

JMO

 

[Lilbitcurious]

I’ve always thought he heard someone and made his way downstairs, deviating from whatever plan he had.

How did he carry the sheathed knife into the house, and unsheathed out? If your pants don’t have belt loops, how do you carry a Ka-bar? Do you have a fanny pack or a backpack/knapsack, or approach the house with sheath in hand?

That’s an awful lot of dna to be dropping (from an unsheathed blade) as you leave! And if you “hear” something why leave to be seen and not stop and hide? It is one of thee most confusing cases I have ever followed it has soo many questions!

 

[girlhasnoname]

IMO they got more that just the juror questionaire:

This is what the D requested:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/051923%20Motion%20To%20Make%20Available%20the%20Record%20of%20All%20Proceedings%20of%20the%20Grand%20Jury%20Pursuant%20to%20ICR%2062.pdf

This is what the P said:
First Response

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/053023%20States%20Response%20to%20Defendants%20Motions%20Regarding%20Grand%20Jury%20Record%20and%20Transcript.pdf

Supplemental response

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/060623%20States%20Supplemental%20Response%20to%20Defendants%20Motions%20Re%20Grand%20Jury%20Record%20and%20Transcript.pdf

View attachment 432086


Clarification to states response:

View attachment 432087

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/061523%20Clarification%20to%20States%20Supplemental%20Response%20to%20Defs%20Motns%20Re%20Grand%20Jury%20Record%20and%20Transcript.pdf

The order states at the beginning: good cause appearing rule 6.2 (c) AND 6.3(c) and then lists what:

View attachment 432088

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062823%20PUBLIC%20Order%20for%20Preparation%20%20Release%20of%20Transcript%20%20Record%20of%20Grand%20Jury.pdf

I read it as they got the proceedings/record but also exhibit A's list (we don't know what this includes) plus copies of exhibits and the questionaire. To me, the above says the State wanted just the transcript and audio recording and seating of the jury....then show good cause ICR 6.3 (c) for more - see supplemental above. Note the Judges order where good cause appearing and 6.3(c) was referenced before the list of what was ordered. That is just how I read it but IANAL and ICBW. MOO

The Defense was always going to be allowed a transcript and audio of the proceedings, except for jury deliberations. Jury questionnaires and selection process isn't standard, but I'm glad the State agreed to provide it because it wasn't a standing GJ, but one empaneled solely for BK case.

MOO

 

[Lilbitcurious]

I believe it all started with his appearing to grade females more harshly. So that's probably why they tracked his interactions with women. Based on what we've heard about him, I think BK really is this way. It's been reported that he has asked servers where they live, and creeped out the staff at that local bar and grill to the point that the owner talked to him about it. He never returned to that bar again. It seems that he is both very poor at social cues AND does not like being called out about it.

We don't know what BK's self-talk was like. People who have "issues" can convince themselves of odd things as a coping mechanism. The neighbor in his apartment said BK's Dad tried to line them up as friends when BK moved to Idaho, which struck me as pretty strange for someone of BK's age. This is a grown man, not a 7 year old changing schools. Did he blame his parents hovering/"interfering" for his inability to attract women? Did he move across the country, thinking that being on his own would fix it? And when that didn't happen, how would someone like that react? He probably wouldn't realize that repeatedly "sliding into" the girls DMs" (assuming that is true) would be considered creepy. He probably thought he was being friendly. If he was still ignored, I certainly think that could make him angry enough to strike out. MOOooo

What girls DM’s? Have I missed something? Plz I’m asking coz I genuinely think I’ve missed something