4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[gliving]

Reporter Nate Eaton tweets pertaining to the Lori Vallow trial, also in Idaho. It's a FBI agent describing their cell phone technology. The same FBI team who analysed BK's cell data:

NateNewsNow

Ballance is part of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team - CAST. They take cell phone data, put it on a map and help track where phones have been. He has used the technology in hundreds of cases - homicides, missing kids, etc.

@NateNewsNow

Ballance testifies that T-Mobile, Verizon and AT&T are the primary cell phone companies in Rexburg. He says your phone utilizes the cell phone tower belonging to your phone even if another company has a cell phone tower closer to you.

1:30 PM · Apr 24, 2023
https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
A cell phone will always select the strongest and clearest cell phone tower - and it might not be the closest tower is there are obstructions or other obstacles in the way.
·
NateNewsNow
Ballance says you can not pinpoint an exact location for a cell phone but you can get a general idea.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650601068823449607

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650598146156945408

 

[ReadySet]

May we all always be surrounded by "horrible" and "immature " people who recognize toxic and dangerous people, and who take steps to keep themselves and others safe.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I wasn't suggesting BK was totally normal BTW. But within weeks it sounds like the other doctoral students formed a kind of a middle school clique, keeping a cute-sy titled list of what BK did that was odd to the group. That seems quite immature and not typical of classmates I had in grad school. Sounds like the doctoral program in CJ at WSU attracted more than one "unusual" person!

These days F2F university classes don't only meet 9-3 so I wouldn't assume evening office hours were necessarily to discourage students. After all, we don't know when the classes BK TAed for met, do we? I wouldn't think if there was more than one TA for a class (& I think BK was 1 of 2 wasn't he?) having office hours at a similar time as the other TA would be a good idea. But anything can be made to sound iffy.

JMO

I see your perspective, NCWatcher, but my initial impression of the same information was so different.

I wondered if this group-compiled list was a new trend for students. If not, then it indicates to me that there was something so out of the norm about him that it alarmed the students enough to document their concerns. (Which is what professionals advise to do if we suspect interactions are going off track.)

Whether it was immature and cliquish or a well considered response to identify a problem is known only by those who compiled the list.

Considering that he's facing trial for the murder of four of their fellow students, I tend to think they were pretty perceptive in their assessment. MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

MIO Evening office hours are not friendly, and going to a TAs office at night sounds iffy. A convenience for himself.

I'd have to know more about the schedule of classes to make the statement it's definitely unfriendly. For a dept with evening classes, I don't think it's unfriendly (or iffy.) For a class that meets in late afternoon/early evening, not weird. For athletes who have afternoon practices from 2-5, a TA with evening hours is not unfriendly.
JMO

 

[Boxer]

I'd have to know more about the schedule of classes to make the statement it's definitely unfriendly. For a dept with evening classes, I don't think it's unfriendly (or iffy.) For a class that meets in late afternoon/early evening, not weird. For athletes who have afternoon practices from 2-5, a TA with evening hours is not unfriendly.
JMO

True. If the hours occurred in in connection with an evening class.

 

[ArianeEmory]

l students formed a kind of a middle school clique, keeping a cute-sy titled list of what BK did that was odd to the group. That seems quite immature and not typical of classmates I had in grad school.

To me it sounded like a group of women comparing notes and taking steps to look out for each other. Wasn’t there a line in there about making sure none of them got trapped alone with him?

IMO it’s good that the messages are finally getting out there to young women (and any potential victims)—trust your gut when something feels wrong, and don’t be afraid to say no to something that’s making you uncomfortable.

 

[jepop]

Still wondering about the time gap prior.

I almost posted about the east route a couple days ago: we think alike
That east route would fill up the 28 minutes without missing time - maybe that time in the morning would be faster travel? Not sure if there would be time to pull over though? And I wonder what that road looks like at night re lighting and maneuverability. Rural roads where I live are quite narrow and difficult to drive (need to look at street view!). It would also depend on where exactly LE picked him up North of Genesee. I mapped it where that road intersects with 95 at Blaine.
LEs map does seem to show travel down 95 though.
JMO

I think the PCA map, difficult as it is to read, shows the route as 1122 to Blaine via Blaine Road, then onto the highway via Martinson, then south on H 95 until either Cow Creek road or Hillside/Moser Road, then westerly to Union Town, then north on 195 until Kirkendale, then east north-east through Bushby to connect with Johnson Road. I spent some time analysing the shape of that Route of the PCA map and think it matches. Unfortunately cannot post the google route I mapped here because i am tech challenged.

ETA, oh that's right, it was @SharonNeedles' amazing maps, posted a couple of weeks ago on prior thread, that sparked my interest in looking at the exit route in more detail. I posted my thoughts at that time, but have since done my own mapping using google that appears to confirm the above route.

 

[NCWatcher]

I see your perspective, NCWatcher, but my initial impression of the same information was so different.

I wondered if this group-compiled list was a new trend for students. If not, then it indicates to me that there was something so out of the norm about him that it alarmed the students enough to document their concerns. (Which is what professionals advise to do if we suspect interactions are going off track.)

Whether it was immature and cliquish or a well considered response to identify a problem is known only by those who compiled the list.

Considering that he's facing trial for the murder of four of their fellow students, I tend to think they were pretty perceptive in their assessment. MOO

Maybe. Of course, for all we know some or many of the list items were added after the fact. For example, they noted BK cut class the day after the murders. I do not believe these grad students immediately thought he committed the crime so why did they notice he was absent? Were they taking his attendance daily? That sounds like an extraordinarily odd thing for a bunch of grad students to do. (And I seriously doubt BK was the only new doctoral student that year-- so the group had to be at least partly new-- They wouldn't have had a longstanding "list practice" that included taking attendance, I wouldn't think.) Honestly, I expect the absence was added to the Tally after the arrest.

So I'm not convinced they were perceptive vs immature and cliquish. But IF they had identified so many policy violations and apparently had told no one, they just put it on their list entitled "Bryan Tally" I don't find their actions exemplary. Of course, people may not want to be tattletales but most people wouldn't share tales with ABC reporters either!
JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

To me it sounded like a group of women comparing notes and taking steps to look out for each other. Wasn’t there a line in there about making sure none of them got trapped alone with him?

IMO it’s good that the messages are finally getting out there to young women (and any potential victims)—trust your gut when something feels wrong, and don’t be afraid to say no to something that’s making you uncomfortable.

I agree with some things you've said but I don't see any reason to assume the other grad students were all women. That would be pretty unusual in CJ. The notes mostly don't relate to the grad students' interactions with BK anyway. For example, whether he attended his classes the day after the murder isn't related to "looking out for each other" that I can see.

There wasn't a line about making sure none of them got trapped with BK. What it said was all the students were looking after one particular woman. The rest of the time they were noting on the Tally what they thought were policy violations like office hours times.
JMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Maybe. Of course, for all we know some or many of the list items were added after the fact. For example, they noted BK cut class the day after the murders. I do not believe these grad students immediately thought he committed the crime so why did they notice he was absent? Were they taking his attendance daily? That sounds like an extraordinarily odd thing for a bunch of grad students to do. (And I seriously doubt BK was the only new doctoral student that year-- so the group had to be at least partly new-- They wouldn't have had a longstanding "list practice" that included taking attendance, I wouldn't think.) Honestly, I expect the absence was added to the Tally after the arrest.

So I'm not convinced they were perceptive vs immature and cliquish. But IF they had identified so many policy violations and apparently had told no one, they just put it on their list entitled "Bryan Tally" I don't find their actions exemplary. Of course, people may not want to be tattletales but most people wouldn't share tales with ABC reporters either!
JMO

Why do you think they told no one?

 

[detectivewannab]

I am not 100% sure he’s guilty.
But on the other hand, I won’t be surprised if he is.

Guilty If I was those I don't think I can contain myself. I hope his attorney does an amazing job and when he is found guilty he has no room for appeal. I have taken children to college and this would-be parents' worst nightmare.

 

[Charlot123]

Forensics would have detected the clean-up yes, but the Defense wouldn't be bringing up that part, at this point in time, would they? I don't think they would. Besides, doesn't everyone clean their car occasionally? Mere presence of cleaning products wouldn't mean much.

They're focused on the "no DNA" part (which was my big worry several threads ago - I think this crime was planned to keep as much victim blood off the perp as possible; that if Xana hadn't been up and about, there would have been no pool of blood near the door of her room for the perp to step in and there would have been no footprints - the latent footprints showing up so close to Xana's room tell me that there was not a lot of blood to step in, in the first place).

I do think it's possible for a DNA-aware criminal to plan a crime so that there's very little victim DNA on themselves AND to be very good at cleaning with ordinary products.

I've posted before about the complexity of taking off one set of clothes/gloves/shoes in a context where one did not want victim DNA in their car. I also believe that if one victim's DNA had been found in the car, the Defense would be claiming that said victim knew Kohberger and voluntarily gotten into the car, etc.

The car DNA is only an issue because of people's expectations, these days, about how to convict using DNA. It's just not simple and in this crime, the most important DNA is the unexpected find of Kohberger's DNA within the crime scene.

IMO.

I am thinking that "old cases solved with DNA" still include the too-obvious element. It wasn't DNA stored for all these years before DNA testing was available, it was "DNA-containing substance". Kudos to old pathologists and LEOs who collected and stored it, but had they known about the usage of DNA, they'd collect and store more swabs from the surfaces.

Those old specialists were great. They'd make copies of bite marks, for example, to identify by teeth. They actually did a lot of smart stuff and spent time on cases. Their cases were airtight for many reasons, not just DNA. But DNA helped to identify the perpetrators, years later.

Nowadays there are new methods (phone, GPS, touch DNA), but it doesn't necessarily mean that everything is easily connected. One thing to remember, the criminals are aware of these things, too, so no one in his right mind would leave DNA in the place where it would undoubtedly connect the victim and the perpetrator.

It concerns me that the prosecution has reached the point of no return. Now they'd better have a mountain of evidence to prove the case. And it was a contaminated crime scene to start with. (By no means should we blame LE for this, it is their misfortune that they got such a scene).

So it is a hard situation. On the one hand, there is pressure on LE to solve the case. On the other, there are statements about lawsuits, etc. (Not right, IMHO). Add that the whole world these days is watching the rights of the accused and checking if the presumption of innocence is safeguarding the case. Also, the journalism that sunk to the level of yellow press.

Where to move from here?

 

[ArianeEmory]

For example, whether he attended his classes the day after the murder isn't related to "looking out for each other" that I can see.

Might have just been a coincidence on their part—one thing that was noted was that he was disdainful of female professors and would skip their classes. Maybe that’s the reason they noticed he wasn’t there.

In any event, I’ll never be against anyone documenting weird and unsettling behavior. Unfortunately a group of us (women) in my office are having to do this with a coworker who manages to never quite cross the line to get fired, but still manages to make all of us incredibly uncomfortable whenever he can.

I promise you there’s nothing fun or “clique-ish” about it.

 

[r3d-ros3]

A few things re: the ABC program

1. I'm surprised WSU doesn't allow TAs to meet with students with the door closed. (I get there could be concerns about male TAs meeting with female students. But it would be very odd IMO to have gender-based rules in this day and age. So is that why all closed doors are supposedly banned?) Usually discussing grades is supposed to be confidential. If other students are waiting outside the door, a door open policy means there cannot be a confidential discussion. Also though, I thought we were told BK shared an office with other grad students. Of that's true, I'm not sure how grade discussions were supposed to happen or how a closed door policy could happen. (And if this item and others related to office hours were supposed to come from other grad students, how would they really know what he did unless they shared an office?)

2. "BK office behavior, he placed himself between the student & the door making it difficult to leave." If BK had a shared office, I'm not sure furniture placement would have been up to him. Was the ABC program reporting he stood during appointments? That's pretty odd so why not say that? Or did they? (And it's sometimes recommended offices be arranged so a professor can easily exit if a student becomes unhinged...that the professor not be trapped. It's not universally recommended student exit be the first priority.)

3. If evening office hours weren't allowed by university policy, I'm surprised no one in authority said anything to BK. Or did his professor say something? Certainly the professor he was TAing for knew or should have known when his office hours were. I'd think that would be on the course syllabus but if not, it would have to be announced during class or put on the course site on Bb (or whatever platform was used)

4. Is everything on the list from his fellow PhD students? They sound like a horrible bunch to me. Classes started in late Aug but well before Nov, a mere 3 months later, they had been frequently talking about him behind his back and keeping a actual list of his oddities? To me, that says just as much, maybe more about the "character" of the other students as it does BK's character. Anyway I'm surprised the grad students knew much about BK's coursework at DeSales or knew anything about the PA arrest. Or did those things not come from them? Did everything but those things come from them?
 JMO

Really thoughtful responses. I'll just weigh in briefly to say that while meeting with students with the door closed in office hours is unlikely to be explicitly disallowed, myself and my peers (especially men, for what it's worth) would opt to always leave the door open. Make of that what you will, but I think a certain element of maintaining an openness in one-on-one meetings is in an instructor's best interests, especially if a meeting goes south for whatever reason. Depending on the level of privacy allowed (especially since most TA offices are shared or in shared spaces), it's certainly at the instructor's discretion to discuss grades or other confidential information in a relatively open space. For myself personally, I would ask students to wait in a nearby common area -- rather than outside the door -- while I was meeting with other students. I would often hear "confidential information" shared between a student and instructor while sitting in my office, as they also kept their doors open. I think this is normal, and professional standards would keep myself (and I hope, my colleagues) from sharing information heard between an ostensibly anonymous (to me) student and another professor or instructor. All IMO.

Regarding your third point, I wonder if holding evening / late night office hours was one of his supposed "breaches" in professionalism that led to the dismissal from his TA job? Just a thought. IMO, it is certainly unusual to hold office hours at night (unless the class was also meeting at night).

 

[Charlot123]

They expect/hoped for DNA transfer. For instance blood from shoes to gas pedal.

MOO a criminologist studying crimes should know to strip and bag clothes after killing and have prepared the car with plastic, new gloves and a hat.
Drive somewhere remote, wipe down self and dispose of all crime items.

Yes. Remembering Angela Gallop's books, in old time they'd collect all fibers at the CS with scotch tape, for example.

So a criminologist should know what to get rid of and how to dress for a crime.

 

[Sundog]

Maybe. Of course, for all we know some or many of the list items were added after the fact. For example, they noted BK cut class the day after the murders. I do not believe these grad students immediately thought he committed the crime so why did they notice he was absent? Were they taking his attendance daily? That sounds like an extraordinarily odd thing for a bunch of grad students to do. (And I seriously doubt BK was the only new doctoral student that year-- so the group had to be at least partly new-- They wouldn't have had a longstanding "list practice" that included taking attendance, I wouldn't think.) Honestly, I expect the absence was added to the Tally after the arrest.

So I'm not convinced they were perceptive vs immature and cliquish. But IF they had identified so many policy violations and apparently had told no one, they just put it on their list entitled "Bryan Tally" I don't find their actions exemplary. Of course, people may not want to be tattletales but most people wouldn't share tales with ABC reporters either!
JMO

I was curious about this "Bryan Tally" list so I listened to the ABC podcast episode titled "Who is Bryan Kohberger" (The King Road Killings, Episode 4), posted above.

The context is that a PHD student in Bryan's class (who doesn't want to be identified and wouldn't let her voice be used in the audio podcast) told the reporter that some of the students felt that BK showed disrespect toward female professors, so they kept a tally of these behaviors, like how many times BK interrupted female professors, how many times he skipped class, etc.
This discussion on the podcast starts just after the 28 minute mark.


Also, the information on when BK would react with anger and knuckles turn white in a class was discussed by fellow PHD student as being related to when he had "points docked" in a class.

So this is more context for the "Bryan Tally" and the "white knuckles" reported in the podcast.

 

[Charlot123]

Thank you @arielilane for reminding podcast ABC King Road Killings dropped a new episode, E4 Who is BK?
*****SPOILER ALERT ******

A review of sorts. I like this podcast. They are upfront about difficulty of getting interviews with people, esp. people who may have liked BK; stated reports seem one-sided for this reason. Although many things in E4 were discussed here on WS, it confirms what I think I know or gives me another POV to consider. It may seem too slanted for some. I get it.

Some things that were new & interesting to me included:

• BK's fellow phd students, so disturbed by BK's behavior, began keeping/tracking his OFF/odd behavior, especially with females, on something they called the "Bryan Tally." (How disliked do you have to be to have fellow mates start keeping score/track? )
• Known before Other students were protective of a fellow female student BK had a crush on. They made sure BK was never alone with her. (The woman must be terrified wondering if she was on a potential victim list. IMO BK had secondary targets, but Maddie/Kaylee were number one.)
• On B'Tally, the Monday after the murders, BK did not show up for class. (Where was he?)
• BK's student office hours were odd/off, evening hours, door closed--not allowed.
• BK office behavior, he placed himself between the student & the door making it difficult to leave.
• At times, BK got so angry in class his face turned red, his fists clenched until his knuckles were white. (BK has been doing a triangular thing w his hands during hearings; maybe being coached.)
• PA arrest 12/30, 1:30 am BK, gloved/sorting trash, was arrested running down stairs toward his bedroom in the basement. (Always thought BK was in kitchen sorting trash when arrested; he ran...)
• Spoke of the BK's DeSales Uni Digital Forensic class BK which evaluated electronic devices, cell phones, computers, iPads, etc used in commission of crimes. (I'm not expecting any evidence returned on BK's electronic devices unless he made another error.)

I like listening to podcasts, reading reviews, thinking about differing points of view.
In the end I make up my own mind.
As always my opinion only.

ABC Audio the king-road-killings are here.

I agree. All I see is evidence of immaturity on behalf of the students. I understand, the teacher's qualities are complex. It takes a lot to be liked by students. (Look at the wonderful reviews of TM, the professor, in the other case. And he is a horrible human being!)


Now, I assume for TA, humor is very important, and I suspect BK didn't have it. This is a minus but not his fault. It is hard to be liked by everyone. If you grade female students well, you might be showing a preference, if you don't, you hate them. I think in BK's case, the verdict is leaning towards "hating them" and it would be interesting and thought-provoking, if only we could believe it. But coming from the journalists, who basically put the answer into the mouth of the guy they interviewed, I don't know how reliable it is.

I think not everyone should be treated with kid gloves. Given how much time and money is spent on this case, we have to ask the students to please, be accountable adults. In WSU, for what they say to the press. In UI, how come the CS was contaminated.

 

[r3d-ros3]

To me it sounded like a group of women comparing notes and taking steps to look out for each other. Wasn’t there a line in there about making sure none of them got trapped alone with him?

IMO it’s good that the messages are finally getting out there to young women (and any potential victims)—trust your gut when something feels wrong, and don’t be afraid to say no to something that’s making you uncomfortable.

This is an interesting and helpful counter-point to the ways in which his cohort's behavior also seems clique-ish or juvenile. In my own experience, I think that graduate school cohorts can be extremely cliquey and can often leave some peers feeling left out. Their behavior seems extreme to me, but at the same time, so does BK's. It sounds like he caused a lot of problems and discomfort in his short time at WSU, based on the information we have right now. IMO, I also agree with other posters that there is a least some element of confirmation bias or even hindsight 20/20 that has likely amplified his peers' perception of his behavior having now been arrested for a quadruple homicide.

 

[NCWatcher]

Why do you think they told no one?

We have no evidence that they did. So for me, "apparently" they told no one as I said in my earlier post.

Might have just been a coincidence on their part—one thing that was noted was that he was disdainful of female professors and would skip their classes. Maybe that’s the reason they noticed he wasn’t there.

In any event, I’ll never be against anyone documenting weird and unsettling behavior. Unfortunately a group of us (women) in my office are having to do this with a coworker who manages to never quite cross the line to get fired, but still manages to make all of us incredibly uncomfortable whenever he can.

I promise you there’s nothing fun or “clique-ish” about it.

Groups documenting events (vs affected individuals doing it independently) can lead to group think. And if the grad students were really keeping a list of the sort you describe, I'm not sure they would have named it 'Bryan Tally." I didn't see that they noted on the list he skipped classes if a female taught them. But I see from @Sundog's post (thanks BTW) that according to the ABC special, behavior in grad classes is why the Tally was started. I still find it odd though because much of it does not relate to grad classes. It just seems to be a free-wheeling list of "Why I don't like BK." That's not especially mature group behavior IMO.
JMO

 

[Sundog]

Might have just been a coincidence on their part—one thing that was noted was that he was disdainful of female professors and would skip their classes. Maybe that’s the reason they noticed he wasn’t there.

The podcast said that the anonymous doctoral classmate reported that they kept the "Bryan Tally" list because, in their opinion, BK had shown "disrespect" toward the female professors in their program. The term "disdain" was not used.

And the examples given of showing "disrespect" was that he skipped female professors' classes at times, and that they felt he "interrupted" his female professors too often, according to their views.