4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

[10ofRods]

Right. For a trial, but we’re not at that phase, which is the point.

IANAL, but IMOE & asking around to attorney friends throughout Idaho, we can’t remember another instance where a defendant in custody has been extended this special privilege pre-trial. That doesn’t mean it’s never happened, but it’s seemingly extraordinarily rare here, MOO.

I want to say that your point is a good one. Typically, Supreme Court decisions are applied narrowly, at least by some states (sometimes depending from which appellate court the case went up to SCOTUS. I never really thought about it, but I never see criminal defendants in jail clothes in front of a jury in my local Superior Courthouse (being California, that doesn't surprise me). However, I have seen some in front of a judge and cameras (no jury - Joe DeAngelo did appear for hearings at least once in jail clothes, IIRC).

Yep, here's a pic of him in jail clothes at his sentencing (plea bargain):

'Golden State Killer' addresses the court: 'I'm truly sorry'

Joseph DeAngelo, the man now known as the "Golden State Killer," will spend life in prison without parole.

abcnews.go.com

So even in California it seems to me that the 14th Amendment is about the right to a fair trial and doesn't mean that jails have to have systems in place for every hearing.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

MOO:

Regarding the lack of victim DNA in BK's vehicle, I'm reposting this from a few months ago, in which I speculated BK may have removed the lid or cap on the gear shift in his car because it may have possibly had victim DNA on it.

In the bodycam footage of the LE stop in Indiana on his way back to PA with his father, you can see that the gearshift is missing it's cap or lid decal, and it's an open gap or hole at the top of the round part of the gear shift that your hand goes around.

I've always wondered if he got rid of it because it may have been the one place in the car where he put his right hand with maybe some possibility of trace DNA from the victims on his glove (after touching the bags or sheets of plastic), and he was being extra careful just in case.

If he's right-handed, which I think he is, he would have used his right hand for everything, touching the knife, sheath, and doorknob/slider handle, stabbing the victims, touching the bags, plastic sheets, and ultimately his gearshift.

Here is a still photo from 1 minute 56 seconds into the stop from the video linked below:

View attachment 433375
And a closeup:

View attachment 433376

Good catch! I never noticed that what appears to be his DL is visible in the right bottom corner (held by the LEO, right?)

He must have been so scared right there.

Two stops over 10-15 minutes, right?

 

[Cool Cats]

You make some good points!

Thanks!

I have always been surprised that most seem to automatically assume that jury walk-throughs called "jury views" are always the best thing to do.

Absolutely not. They are rare for good reason. Yes yes yes there are several high profile cases where it has been done but even those are different from this case.

2 Cents

 

[gremlin444]

Unlocked link to the NYT house demolition article, shared by one of its authors Mike Baker:

Should a Notorious Crime Scene Be Demolished Before Trial?

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Chloegirl]

Do you think the house would be safe to go in with all of the toxins etc from what happened, plus chemicals used by LE? Like can they clean it up enough, w/o destroying the crime scene, so it wouldn't be a health risk?

I suspect that's quite possible that it is sanitized properly. What I also think nobody is staying here is that it could be bad for what the layout was like internally and how you would have to know how to get around. Maybe it works against the case somehow? JMOO

 

[Megnut]

Good catch! I never noticed that what appears to be his DL is visible in the right bottom corner (held by the LEO, right?)

He must have been so scared right there.

Two stops over 10-15 minutes, right?

I trust your analysis far more than my own but I'm curious that you think he experiences fear here. I would. You would. But would he?

While I can't assess his heart rate or palm sweetness, he seems calculated, measured. Maybe I could give him apprehension, which I suppose is a subset or sister of fear.

I think he was watching the officer, as we might try to read the officer's mind/demeanor/next move to decide how to attack/counter attack. He knew to say little. He let his dad fill the gaps.

I wonder if his driving improved after that or if LE called for a Back Off....

Are fear, paranoia, apprehension aspects of the same visceral reaction to a present stressor?

He seems intense. By the stare alone.

Jmo

 

[LAhiker]

I'm not surprised because there are a lot of reasons why it is not a good idea for prosecutors to do a jury walk through - called "jury view" - of the crime scene. These can backfire and cause doubt in juror's minds and weaken the prosecution's Case. And, the defense can use the "jury view" to cast doubt on the prosecution's case. The prosecution doesn't want to weaken their case.

1.) Inconvenience due to distance with change of venue.

2.) Some jurors could feel creeped out and uncomfortable, especially if they see any blood.

3.) Items have been removed so the crime scenes are not the way they were when BK was there, not a true picture, thus, court photos and videos of the house would be better to show what actual items and furniture were in the rooms, hallways etc... before anything was removed.

4.) Confusing layout could confuse the jury and make the jury doubt the timeline, doubt BK had enough time to find his way around in the dark, finding bedrooms on 2 floors, stabbing and fighting 4 people, finding the exit then navigating steep terrain outside, all within 15 minutes.

5.) Could cause a Mistrial from talking. No one is allowed to talk on a walk through. No commentary. No questions. Just a description of what they are looking at.

6.) Waste of time when the Courtroom presentations of the crime scenes can accomplish the same thing as a "jury view." "Jury views" are rare for a reason - often technology can clearly show juries all the information they need in understanding how murders occurred in a specific building.

7.) Congested area at King Rd, this could cause security and privacy issues such as photos taken of jurors, jurors being followed in vehicles to and from court, etc..

When jurors are allowed to visit crime scenes

Question: I recently read about a case in which a jury was allowed to visit the scene of...

www.theintelligencer.com

Juries Visited The Crime Scenes In These Five Murder Trials. Here’s Why That Can't Happen In The Idaho Stabbings Case.

“Evidence that jurors can see for themselves and feel personally involved in, compiling in their heads, is going to be much more powerful ... than what they were just told by someone else like an expert,” one jury consultant told BuzzFeed News.

www.buzzfeednews.com

While these are all good points, and while I agree that the house should ultimately be demolished, I still think it might be best to avoid demolishing it until after the initial trial.

Especially given its unusual layout, I worry that demolishing the house beforehand would foreclose on options if for some reason a walk-through was needed. The strongest argument against this is that things have changed w/in the house, but how much have they changed?

It also seems like there are a lot of weird conspiracy theories about this case online. Premature demolition of the house would only encourage those.

Finally, some of the family members think demolition should be postponed.

JMO

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

NYT Article on demolishing house debate:

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjQ1Lyq_vz_AhVVKFkFHbjLB3MQvOMEKAB6BAgUEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2023%2F07%2F07%2Fus%2Fidaho-murders-house-demolition.html&usg=AOvVaw2r3-30z6ZWHRE6Acf3sETT&opi=89978449

ETA NYT

Thanks for sharing the article, which I think does a good job of presenting a challenging topic with sensitivity.

 

[DizzyB]

While these are all good points, and while I agree that the house should ultimately be demolished, I still think it might be best to avoid demolishing it until after the initial trial.

Especially given its unusual layout, I worry that demolishing the house beforehand would foreclose on options if for some reason a walk-through was needed. The strongest argument against this is that things have changed w/in the house, but how much have they changed?

It also seems like there are a lot of weird conspiracy theories about this case online. Premature demolition of the house would only encourage those.

Finally, some of the family members think demolition should be postponed.

JMO

I remember when the floor plans first came out, I spent so much time trying to understand the layout. Where the first floor entry was, vs. the kitchen slider entry. That half wall when you come up the steps to floor 2, Xana’s bedroom down that hall. I had a lot of trouble with the top floor, still do. How the staircase worked, Maddie’s room with the cowboy boots in the window. I still wonder about DM’s sight line and BK’s walk out of that house. I could go on and on.

 

[al66pine]

Jury Views. Sometimes Permitted. Does Technology Supplant?

....
8.) "Jury views" are rare for a reason - often technology can clearly show juries all the information they need in understanding how murders occurred in a specific building.

When jurors are allowed to visit crime scenes

Question: I recently read about a case in which a jury was allowed to visit the scene of...

www.theintelligencer.com

Juries Visited The Crime Scenes In These Five Murder Trials. Here’s Why That Can't Happen In The Idaho Stabbings Case.

“Evidence that jurors can see for themselves and feel personally involved in, compiling in their heads, is going to be much more powerful ... than what they were just told by someone else like an expert,” one jury consultant told BuzzFeed News.

www.buzzfeednews.com

snipped for focus @CoolCats Thanks for your post.
Zeroing in on parties using technology to show their versions of events. Hi-tech 3D scans are (likely? certainly?) available for BK's trial. Despite somewhat unusual floorplan, seems imo 3D scans could convey the info the state or def't want or need to convey to jury.

Btw, interesting that Peterson's* def atty asked for JV at trial, which then led to his conviction. JVs can be useful to the state or to def't, depending on circumstances.

Could hi-tech 3D scans have been made and used at trials in the 1970, 1994 or 2001 cases mentioned in the buzzfeed article on Jury Views?* Doubtful, but maybe in 2018 Parkland school shootings** and this years Murdaugh case? IDK.

ETA. I forgot to MOO.
ETA #2. A little clean up.
___________________________________
* 1970, Jeffrey MacDonald's wife & children died; 1979, JMcD tried & convicted of murders.
On-base Ft. Bragg army housing was kept intact, unoccuppied for NINE years

Jeffrey R. MacDonald - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and
1994, O. J. Simpson's wife & friend Ron Goldman died; O.J. Simpson tried 1994-95; 1995, OJ acquitted.

Murder trial of O. J. Simpson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and
2001 Michael Peterson's wife died; 2004, MP trIed & convicted of murder, tho later reversed.

Michael Peterson trial - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

** 2018 M. Stoneman Douglas High School shootings in FL resulted in 17 deaths; 2021, Nikolas Kruz pled guilty; 2022 death penalty trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolas_Cruza

 

[Twistinginthewind]

MOO:

Regarding the lack of victim DNA in BK's vehicle, I'm reposting this from a few months ago, in which I speculated BK may have removed the lid or cap on the gear shift in his car because it may have possibly had victim DNA on it.

In the bodycam footage of the LE stop in Indiana on his way back to PA with his father, you can see that the gearshift is missing it's cap or lid decal, and it's an open gap or hole at the top of the round part of the gear shift that your hand goes around.

I've always wondered if he got rid of it because it may have been the one place in the car where he put his right hand with maybe some possibility of trace DNA from the victims on his glove (after touching the bags or sheets of plastic), and he was being extra careful just in case.

If he's right-handed, which I think he is, he would have used his right hand for everything, touching the knife, sheath, and doorknob/slider handle, stabbing the victims, touching the bags and plastic sheets (I think he used to stow the bloody clothes/kill kit), and ultimately his gearshift.

Here is a still photo from 1 minute 56 seconds into the stop from the video linked below:

View attachment 433375
And a closeup:

View attachment 433376

ETA: Here's what it's supposed to look like with the cap in tact:

View attachment 433380

Source: 2015 Hyundai Elantra - Carvana

Apologies for replying to my post, adding this still shot of BK in the October traffic stop bodycam footage at 1:27-1:28 that shows a glimpse of the top of the gear shift, and it looks to me like the shiny cap is there (in October), and then gone (in December). MOO

 

[MyBelle]

MOO:

Regarding the lack of victim DNA in BK's vehicle, I'm reposting this from a few months ago, in which I speculated BK may have removed the lid or cap on the gear shift in his car because it may have possibly had victim DNA on it.

In the bodycam footage of the LE stop in Indiana on his way back to PA with his father, you can see that the gearshift is missing it's cap or lid decal, and it's an open gap or hole at the top of the round part of the gear shift that your hand goes around.

I've always wondered if he got rid of it because it may have been the one place in the car where he put his right hand with maybe some possibility of trace DNA from the victims on his glove (after touching the bags or sheets of plastic), and he was being extra careful just in case.

If he's right-handed, which I think he is, he would have used his right hand for everything, touching the knife, sheath, and doorknob/slider handle, stabbing the victims, touching the bags and plastic sheets (I think he used to stow the bloody clothes/kill kit), and ultimately his gearshift.

Here is a still photo from 1 minute 56 seconds into the stop from the video linked below:

View attachment 433375
And a closeup:

View attachment 433376

ETA: Here's what it's supposed to look like with the cap in tact:

View attachment 433380

Source: 2015 Hyundai Elantra - Carvana

Wow! I would have never noticed that! Great point!

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Apologies for replying to my post, adding this still shot of BK in the October traffic stop bodycam footage at 1:27-1:28 that shows a glimpse of the top of the gear shift, and it looks to me like the shiny cap is there (in October), and then gone (in December). MOO

View attachment 433413

@10ofRods, is there anything to be researched here about his pinpoint pupils? Significant?

jmo

 

[jepop]

Apologies for replying to my post, adding this still shot of BK in the October traffic stop bodycam footage at 1:27-1:28 that shows a glimpse of the top of the gear shift, and it looks to me like the shiny cap is there (in October), and then gone (in December). MOO

View attachment 433413

Great spot. I think this would be significant to investigators who looked at the car. Will be really interesting to see if it's raised at trial.

 

[10ofRods]

I trust your analysis far more than my own but I'm curious that you think he experiences fear here. I would. You would. But would he?

While I can't assess his heart rate or palm sweetness, he seems calculated, measured. Maybe I could give him apprehension, which I suppose is a subset or sister of fear.

I think he was watching the officer, as we might try to read the officer's mind/demeanor/next move to decide how to attack/counter attack. He knew to say little. He let his dad fill the gaps.

I wonder if his driving improved after that or if LE called for a Back Off....

Are fear, paranoia, apprehension aspects of the same visceral reaction to a present stressor?

He seems intense. By the stare alone.

Jmo

I think he looks "shook." And is trying very hard not to. Maybe fear was too strong a word. The lowest level of fear is simple anxiety, at least the way I view it. You're right that he knew his strategy (keep quiet, let that relaxed dad handle it - dad looks at ease).

He tailgates twice within about 10-15 minutes and then after that, we see no more of these cop stops. His tailgating is concerning (does he feel more comfortable right on the tail of a huge truck - because he can *see* it and *follow* it and it is a kind of ice-breaker for him?)

Paranoia is way above anxiety in terms of fear level, IMO. I may be discounting his staring because I've come to regard it as a function of his VSS - he's learned to stare intently through the middle part of his field of vision, and if he stares long enough at one thing, he gets a complete sense of its image.

I think we can agree he looks tense. This is the third time he's been pulled over in a few months that we know of. Now I"m wondering if this is just par for the course, and that's why dad looks so relaxed.

Maybe it's a combo of him feeling his paranoia rise but attempting to block it by doing some "relaxation" exercises.

IMO.

 

[maconrich]

I suspect that's quite possible that it is sanitized properly. What I also think nobody is staying here is that it could be bad for what the layout was like internally and how you would have to know how to get around. Maybe it works against the case somehow? JMOO

Agree on the house and the fact the layout isn't even remotely intuitive, not even while looking at layouts or the online 3D layouts. (Which is one of the main reasons I tend to believe the killer had been inside the house prior to that night, and for long enough to know how to get where he wanted to go.)

As @Cool Cats posted:
"4.) Confusing layout could confuse the jury and make the jury doubt the timeline, doubt BK had enough time to find his way around in the dark, finding bedrooms on 2 floors, stabbing and fighting 4 people, finding the exit then navigating steep terrain outside, all within 15 minutes."

Edited to add quote from the NYT's article:

"The county prosecutor, Bill Thompson, told the university that he also did not object, because the authorities did not think it would be needed for trial.

“The scene has been substantially altered from its condition at the time of the homicides including removal of relevant property and furnishings, removal of some structural items such as wallboard and flooring, and subjected to extensive chemical application creating a potential health hazard,” Mr. Thompson wrote in a separate email. “These are some of the reasons that we have concluded that a ‘jury view’ would not be appropriate.”

Should a Notorious Crime Scene Be Demolished Before Trial? (Published 2023)

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

www.nytimes.com

 

[10ofRods]

@10ofRods, is there anything to be researched here about his pinpoint pupils? Significant?

jmo

Hmm. He is outside in daytime and I can't tell where the sun is. But I think that anyone who encountered a known heroin user (no matter how far in the past) and saw pinpoint pupils would wonder (pretty easy to assess how small pupils get in whatever lighting there is). He threw her off by asking questions. And he doesn't make eye contact for long.

Heroin and all opiates cause constricted pupils (fentanyl produces this with a very small dose).

He's actually mostly in shade and the officer is standing right outside his window, blocking more light.

Very interesting catch. If he was still using/had resumed using, then some of his weird classroom behavior is more explainable. I keep hoping they did take hair samples. If he had been using, I would figure that he'd want to taper off before going home to PA, as surely it would have been hard for him to find his drugs of choice there (maybe not, though). Who knows.

If we add some type of drug problem into the mix on this case, it becomes much easier to understand how he "snapped." And how he made himself into a cold-blooded person. Derealization and depersonalization are symptoms of drug addiction as well.

This case is just awful on every level.

IMO.

 

[Chloegirl]

Agree on the house and the fact the layout isn't even remotely intuitive, not even while looking at layouts or the online 3D layouts. (Which is one of the main reasons I tend to believe the killer had been inside the house prior to that night, and for long enough to know how to get where he wanted to go.)

As @Cool Cats posted:
"4.) Confusing layout could confuse the jury and make the jury doubt the timeline, doubt BK had enough time to find his way around in the dark, finding bedrooms on 2 floors, stabbing and fighting 4 people, finding the exit then navigating steep terrain outside, all within 15 minutes."

Edited to add quote from the NYT's article:

"The county prosecutor, Bill Thompson, told the university that he also did not object, because the authorities did not think it would be needed for trial.

“The scene has been substantially altered from its condition at the time of the homicides including removal of relevant property and furnishings, removal of some structural items such as wallboard and flooring, and subjected to extensive chemical application creating a potential health hazard,” Mr. Thompson wrote in a separate email. “These are some of the reasons that we have concluded that a ‘jury view’ would not be appropriate.”

Should a Notorious Crime Scene Be Demolished Before Trial? (Published 2023)

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

www.nytimes.com

Simply put whether he was inside or not, there was familiarity from looking inside what was that name of that account that nobody could verify outside looking, interesting. Lots of information was available on SM and Zillow so I'm not convinced he'd been inside as much as visualized the interior. JMOO

 

[Tricia]

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[Chloegirl]

Hmm. He is outside in daytime and I can't tell where the sun is. But I think that anyone who encountered a known heroin user (no matter how far in the past) and saw pinpoint pupils would wonder (pretty easy to assess how small pupils get in whatever lighting there is). He threw her off by asking questions. And he doesn't make eye contact for long.

Heroin and all opiates cause constricted pupils (fentanyl produces this with a very small dose).

He's actually mostly in shade and the officer is standing right outside his window, blocking more light.

Very interesting catch. If he was still using/had resumed using, then some of his weird classroom behavior is more explainable. I keep hoping they did take hair samples. If he had been using, I would figure that he'd want to taper off before going home to PA, as surely it would have been hard for him to find his drugs of choice there (maybe not, though). Who knows.

If we add some type of drug problem into the mix on this case, it becomes much easier to understand how he "snapped." And how he made himself into a cold-blooded person. Derealization and depersonalization are symptoms of drug addiction as well.

This case is just awful on every level.

IMO.

Pure speculation, I always assume it was in the mix. It's far more common for people to fall off their wagon with a big change like a move. Not living at home after 28 years that fits for changing behaviors. JMOO