4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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There are no twitch (grub trucks streaming platform of choice) warrants yet. Doesn’t mean we won’t see one. But considering it was one of the first publicly known and shared pieces of evidence…there’s probably no warrant because LE doesn’t think there’s anything there.

So if we pretend that Twitch did contain viewer information pertinent to the case then BKs devices are only one half of the equation. As whatever device he is using would need to communicate with Twitch’s computers (servers). and there are only a few ways to obscure the metadata left behind by those interactions and none of them are fully secure. Twitch likely has the IP address of everyone who’s watched the grub truck stream around the time the murders were committed. Anonymous or not. They track all of this stuff because of the constant “swatting” and spam their streamers face.

and Twitch is on the “clearnet”. Not the “dark web”. Not Tor. so staying anonymous is pretty much impossible with todays software/hardware/behaviorial fingerprinting tools.

So did BK use a coffee shop? A neighbors internet? Because he had to use something that gave off an IP address….

Contrary to popular belief VPNs do little to nothing to protect you and your identity. Just look at how Facebook was able to block all VPN users in the UK from using threads. So even though they are using an IP from another country…Facebook knows that it’s a VPN and knows where the user originates from. Countless crimes have been committed under the false sense of security that a VPN provides only for the person to be caught.

I think this is the last time I combat the BK is a technical genius thing. Because no one ever shares how he actually did it. It’s just that he did…somehow…using some unknown secretive method only privvy to him apparently. And I don’t think this perception is going to change no matter how much I try to share and demystify technology and “hacking”.
Agree. MOO there might be some modest activity by BK there to find, maybe something big about a phone number, but MOO this is a super physical crime with some precautions, but with also some impulsive just do it energy.
Driving around in circles around 1122 before the crime?
MOO he might have counted on the PA license plate being unreadable, maybe he made it unreadable by a spray made for that purpose, a pretty ubiquitous car and geo fencimg that only extended about 5 miles around Moscow.

I wonder if they retrieved the old license plate to get a look at it.
 
I was under the impression one could not drive a vehicle in a loop from where Queen Rd. ends to the parking area behind the big apartment buildings due to constricted space so he turned around in the cul de sac. Overhead maps have tree coverage and there is no street walking on the maps in that area so I am unsure. I have looked at videos of reporters/youtubers in the area and apartment rental ads and have not found anything to prove or disprove my belief. Also, there is a fence in front of 1330 Linda Lane (the building the video is recorded at) but I cannot tell where it ends and that area is elevated above the cul de sac where Queen Rd. ends so can a vehicle drive through there? Please someone that is local go there and post your findings!
I noticed this too. Am a bit confused - just on that point. Moo
 
The question is, does the app have to be installed on both phones, or merely on one and connected via Wi-Fi? If on one - if you remember, BK allegedly knew the password for the neighbor whom he befriended and whose apartment was later broken into, when installing her security system. So maybe he used to collect passwords to WiFis?

As to the King Road house, it was a party house and it is not impossible that many people knew the Wi-Fi password. Also, was the WiFi provided by the owner of the house? (Offices are often leased with existing Wi-Fi, I don’t know about houses). If so, it is not impossible that the new tenants might have not changed the password that the tenants from the previous year had been using.
In a real estate ad for 1122 King Rd it says WiFi is provided by the landlord as well as all bills paid. Look on Kuula.com.
 
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My interpretation of this warrant is they are looking for two specific burner phones.

The dates match up to when Kohlberger would have been preparing to travel to or had already been in Moscow.


It’s clear they have two numbers that are related to activities that they are highly interested in. Numbers taken from god knows where (social media accounts? Contact with victims? ) And the numbers have no clear subscribers attached to them. So they are asking for purchasing records too.

Bullet point number two in the warrant specifically refers to prepaid card refill purchases.

Youre welcome to interpret it anyway you’d like though.

Just sayin’ MOO
This has always been how I interpreted these two unknown AT&T numbers, as well. Jmo.
 
Does anyone here care to speculate whether they think the killer went to the trouble of installing their own wildlife/deer/night cam?

Behind their house up in the trees and/or across the street that abutted the Greek Row in front of their house?

That the killer used to view their house and them and their activities remotely on their computer and/or phone or on Alexa or whatever remote viewing device ahead of time?

That they later removed, that morning, whenever (right away after the murders or later that morning before LE showed up around noon)?

So they wouldn't need to come in person until / once the timing was set in stone for early morning Sunday November 13th entry and killings?

Or do you think I'm giving them too much credit and/or they didn't need something like that personally dedicated remote viewing device ahead of time?

TIA. MOO as usual
When I read your post Twistinginthewind, I gasped so loud that it scared Sophie the kittycat.
Two reasons for my gasp - firstly, that for some reason, the thought of this possibility seemed to add to the horror of the already utterly horrific events, with those innocent kids just going about their business whilst being spied on, and secondly, because I think that this is exactly the sort of thing that the killer would do for all the reasons you've mentioned. IMO MOO

(I think you've worked him out. I had a brief fantasy of him reading your post, and sputtering and coughing as he was eating his porridge, thinking no-one would ever work out how he'd been "so clever", and you've nailed it, just like that! Brilliant!
 
Does anyone here care to speculate whether they think the killer went to the trouble of installing their own wildlife/deer/night cam?

Behind their house up in the trees and/or across the street that abutted the Greek Row in front of their house?

That the killer used to view their house and them and their activities remotely on their computer and/or phone or on Alexa or whatever remote viewing device ahead of time?

That they later removed, that morning, whenever (right away after the murders or later that morning before LE showed up around noon)?

So they wouldn't need to come in person until / once the timing was set in stone for early morning Sunday November 13th entry and killings?

Or do you think I'm giving them too much credit and/or they didn't need something like that personally dedicated remote viewing device ahead of time?

TIA. MOO as usual
I don’t see why the killer would do that when he could simply watch them via their TVs, cellphones and computers and any other devices they had. JMO.
 
During BK's prior 12 visits to the King Rd area, I wonder what he was doing. Had he planned harm right from the start, or did it begin as simply watching? Was he fixing their behavior patterns or just peeping?

A technological genius he was not, but due to his education, he had been exposed to more technological knowledge than the average joe, IMO. He knew enough to know there would likely be a geofence done around the crime scene for a window of time surrounding the murders, so he turned off his phone. He apparently wasn't worried about doing so during his other 12 visits, because he clearly wasn't planning to do anything then.

If he did happen to use burner phones, I feel like it was likely for use in cyber stalking purposes, although I wouldn't doubt he could also have used one on the night of the murders in an attempt to point LE in the wrong direction (circling back to him knowing a geofence was likely). JMO.

I suspect that his education gave him just enough to be stupidly overconfident in his knowledge, so while he might have known more than the average joe, he didn't know enough...
 
My interpretation of this warrant is they are looking for two specific burner phones.

The dates match up to when Kohlberger would have been preparing to travel to or had already been in Moscow.


It’s clear they have two numbers that are related to activities that they are highly interested in. Numbers taken from god knows where (social media accounts? Contact with victims? ) And the numbers have no clear subscribers attached to them. So they are asking for purchasing records too.

Bullet point number two in the warrant specifically refers to prepaid card refill purchases.

Youre welcome to interpret it anyway you’d like though.

Just sayin’ MOO
I know he purchased a new phone before moving to Pullman. Does anyone know the date for that? I’m wondering how the alleged burner phone lines up with that?
 
In a nutshell, Judge Judge ordered the training records pertaining to 3 peripheral officers (peripheral, meaning the prosecution does not plan to call them) be provided to the Defense. I understand the State's argument, essentially the Pros is saying the records do not pertain to officers who will testify to their case in chief so they shouldn't have to provide them but the Judge interpreted the case law and said, turn them over. The Defense wants them to help prepare for their case and examination of witnesses. They are training records of 3 officers minutely involved in the big scheme of the prosecution's case. They won't even be on the stand, except if called by Defense. The Pros should have just turned them over. They will have so little impact on the case and the Defense wanted them. They will now.


Hmm. Wondering why Jennifer deleted this tweet.
 
"Dream Team"

Adding to
@Nila Aella's list:

Defense Team:

Anne C. Taylor
- Chief Public Defender
Jay W. Logsdon - Chief Deputy of Litigation
Elisa G. Massoth - Criminal Defense Attorney - Represented two clients to exoneration after wrongful convictions.

Bicka Barlow - DNA consultant
Stephen B Mercer - DNA consultant

Matthew Noedel - Crime scene investigator featured in a documentary reconstruction of rapper Tupac Shakur's death.

Jeff Nye - Deputy attorney general -- Criminal law division
Ingrid Batey - Deputy attorney general - Criminal law division

The DNA from other men thing is so funny to me - obviously, it's been known since the first MINUTE of this case they had a "party house". What are the bets one of the DNA profiles innocently belongs to Ethan's brother and they're gonna try to go some sick route for extra attention? I could definitely see that happening.

Of course they're grasping at straws, gotta do SOMETHING as the defense so you can get that sweet, sweet international fame & exposure (all the while unapologetically screwing over one of the victims' own MOM)... *insert largest possible eyeroll here*

MOO, as always
 
Has Bryan officially been diagnosed with VSS or did he self-diagnose? Has he been diagnosed as being on the spectrum? Bryan seems to display some of those traits of being on the spectrum (social cues, difficulty with personal relationships, etc).
I personally think he falls far more in an anti-social/sociopath or potentially a psychopath category than simply "on the spectrum".
The term sociopath refers to someone living with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) as does the term psychopath.

The most recent edition of the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders” (DSM-5), which mental health professionals use to diagnose mental health conditions, defines ASPD as a consistent disregard for rules and social norms and repeated violation of other people’s rights.

Robert Hare, the psychologist who created the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R), defined sociopathy as involving a conscience and sense of right and wrong, or morality. But that sense of morality doesn’t line up with cultural and social norms. Instead, people with sociopathy often justify actions they recognize as “wrong.”

What are the signs of sociopathy?​

There’s no standard list of sociopath signs, but the signs and symptoms of ASPD include a persistent pattern of disregard for others. For example:

  • ignoring social norms and laws, or breaking rules at school or work, overstepping social boundaries, stealing, stalking and harassing others, and destroying property
  • dishonesty and deceit, including using false identities and manipulating others for personal gain
  • difficulty controlling impulses and planning for the future, or acting without considering the consequences
  • aggressive or aggravated behavior, including frequent fights or physical conflict with others
  • disregard for personal safety, or the safety of others
  • difficulty managing responsibilities, including showing up at work, handling tasks, or paying rent and bills
  • little to no guilt or remorse, or a tendency to justify actions that negatively affect others
People with ASPD generally show little emotion or interest in the lives of others. They might:

  • come across as arrogant or superior, with firmly fixed opinions
  • use humor, intelligence, and charisma to manipulate
  • seem charming at first, until their self-interest becomes clear

Psychopathy, according to Hare, involves no sense of morality or empathy.
Bolded the parts I think apply to Bryan most from what we have seen and had documented so far.

MOO, always
 
"Dream Team"

Adding to
@Nila Aella's list:

Defense Team:

Anne C. Taylor
- Chief Public Defender
Jay W. Logsdon - Chief Deputy of Litigation
Elisa G. Massoth - Criminal Defense Attorney - Represented two clients to exoneration after wrongful convictions.

Bicka Barlow - DNA consultant
Stephen B Mercer - DNA consultant

Matthew Noedel - Crime scene investigator featured in a documentary reconstruction of rapper Tupac Shakur's death.

Jeff Nye - Deputy attorney general -- Criminal law division
Ingrid Batey - Deputy attorney general - Criminal law division

Well I feel better knowing they have an investigator that worked on one of the most high profile shootings of rapper Tupac in 1996 and they still haven't arrested anybody. Hah.

MOO

ETA: Name of said rapper :)
 
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As far as we know LE is looking for two “burner” prepaid phones in the Moscow case. What are the chances those phones weren’t used for nefarious reasons. And what are the chances that LE won’t be able to connect it to its buyer?
Certainly the warrant to AT&T would lead to a connection between BK and (2) burners; MOO with a tip of the hat to schooling. What I find interesting is the variety of dates in and concerning the warrant and its seizure product...

The warrant was issued 3/30/23 which leads to the conclusion that LE was not aware of the burners, or possibly of their significance, until some 3-plus months after their sight was firmly affixed on BK.

Data requested carried the interval from June 23, 2022, to August 1, 2022: Which well precedes the crime and may serve as indicator for BK's arrival in WA but LE must have indication that the phones were never used or connected after 8-1 which leads to another round of burners perhaps? From August through ???

Seems AT&T furnished (some portion of?) the subject data on April 12; that same day, Jennings requested an extension to receive and prepare and inventory; extension granted to May 4 on April 13. Also on April 13, Mowery issued affidavit that the responding data had been received and Inventoried and stored at the MPD; and also Jennings requested order that the warrant and respondent data be sealed. That lady is quick! Order to seal on April 18 effective through June 1.
I don't think there is anything nefarious in that it sounds like checks crossing in the mail...MOO

Given the various non disclosure orders: Would any of the above indicate that there is another round of data already collected and that a similar warrant for the later interval has already been issued and inventoried?

Can't help but wonder....

ETA: C & P at top was deleted
 
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The DNA from other men thing is so funny to me - obviously, it's been known since the first MINUTE of this case they had a "party house". What are the bets one of the DNA profiles innocently belongs to Ethan's brother and they're gonna try to go some sick route for extra attention? I could definitely see that happening.

Of course they're grasping at straws, gotta do SOMETHING as the defense so you can get that sweet, sweet international fame & exposure (all the while unapologetically screwing over one of the victims' own MOM)... *insert largest possible eyeroll here*

MOO, as always
The problem with those other unidentified male DNA profiles is that we have no context with them. If the samples came from the railing going up the stairs, for instance, it would be less suspect than if they came from, let's say, under a victim's fingernails. That's an extreme example, but I just don't think the forensic team was swabbing random places around the house that wouldn't somehow correlate with the crime. I tend to think that for the prosecution, those DNA samples might be insignificant in the overall picture of the evidence. But for the defense, it could be an important piece to their argument. Especially if there is no clear explanation for those DNA samples' presence where they were found. JMO.
 
I think that's my point and you are explaining the technical aspect that I can't due to ignorance. If defendant was using an in real time live "spy cam" then it would have been traced back to him right? Even if he removed the device on the night, say, LE would have been able to recover the number attached to the camera and trace it back? Moo
If the device was found, it would obviously be a lot more likely that LE could connect it back to it’s owner.

There’s a scenario where he could have used a device, it went undiscovered up to the crime and he disposes of it.

In that case LE could discover the device via forensic analysis of his phone. They’ll be looking for any IPs or domain names that he regularly connected to. Or any unusual apps that he may have used. They’ll also be looking at purchases he made. Including the device itself and any prepaid cellular data SIM cards.

Also, you just made me realize that the warrant I cited earlier that looks a lot like 2 prepaid phones don’t have to be prepaid phones. Data only devices also get phone numbers assigned to them. So while I’m not discounting a live surveillance device I’m still a little skeptical.

MOO of course. And as my wife would tell people here…..I’m wrong all of the time.
 
@schooling, would a person have the capabilities to communicate via SM with a burner phone, using a fake account linked to the burner phone's number? Would the digital trails show up with an unidentified phone number then, with no link back to an actual person if there's no record of the burner phone's purchase?
 
Certainly the warrant to AT&T would lead to a connection between BK and (2) burners; MOO with a tip of the hat to schooling. What I find interesting is the variety of dates in and concerning the warrant and its seizure product...

The warrant was issued 3/30/23 which leads to the conclusion that LE was not aware of the burners, or possibly of their significance, until some 3-plus months after their sight was firmly affixed on BK.

Data requested carried the interval from June 23, 2022, to August 1, 2022: Which well precedes the crime and may serve as indicator for BK's arrival in WA but LE must have indication that the phones were never used or connected after 8-1 which leads to another round of burners perhaps? From August through ???

Seems AT&T furnished (some portion of?) the subject data on April 12; that same day, Jennings requested an extension to receive and prepare and inventory; extension granted to May 4 on April 13. Also on April 13, Mowery issued affidavit that the responding data had been received and Inventoried and stored at the MPD; and also Jennings requested order that the warrant and respondent data be sealed. That lady is quick! Order to seal on April 18 effective through June 1.
I don't think there is anything nefarious in that it sounds like checks crossing in the mail...MOO

Given the various non disclosure orders: Would any of the above indicate that there is another round of data already collected and that a similar warrant for the later interval has already been issued and inventoried?

Can't help but wonder....

ETA: C & P at top was deleted
I could also be related to the returns from other warrants, like Google. I believe @jepop has mentioned something along these lines. Was something found in the return from another warrant that indicated the need to look at these specific numbers during those specific dates? IDK.
 
The problem with those other unidentified male DNA profiles is that we have no context with them. If the samples came from the railing going up the stairs, for instance, it would be less suspect than if they came from, let's say, under a victim's fingernails. That's an extreme example, but I just don't think the forensic team was swabbing random places around the house that wouldn't somehow correlate with the crime. I tend to think that for the prosecution, those DNA samples might be insignificant in the overall picture of the evidence. But for the defense, it could be an important piece to their argument. Especially if there is no clear explanation for those DNA samples' presence where they were found. JMO.
Good points but realistically if the unknown samples came from under fingernails or mixed in with blood of victims (for eg) - basically anywhere very suspect within the two rooms in which the murders took place - I do believe there would have been follow through by LE, including the IGG route. I think the samples come from perhaps less suspect locations - maybe slider door or something like that. LE would obviously have eliminated against known acquaintance and any POIs but didn't go as far as IGG owing to the sheath button sample that didn't match. With any luck -they may be doing further investigation right now to try and eliminate if they have the time and resources. To have only two unknown samples is an indication of great work done within the house. Moo
 
Good points but realistically if the unknown samples came from under fingernails or mixed in with blood of victims (for eg) - basically anywhere very suspect within the two rooms in which the murders took place - I do believe there would have been follow through by LE, including the IGG route. I think the samples come from perhaps less suspect locations - maybe slider door or something like that. LE would obviously have eliminated against known acquaintance and any POIs but didn't go as far as IGG owing to the sheath button sample that didn't match. With any luck -they may be doing further investigation right now to try and eliminate if they have the time and resources. To have only two unknown samples is an indication of great work done within the house. Moo
I fully agree, and I also think the samples will be innocuous. But I can see where the defense might latch onto these unknown samples if there's any good reason to at all. The Mollie Tibbetts trial is a prime example of this, although it did NOT work in the defense's favor...
 
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