4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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PO Boxes would also be an immediate red flag. Most require two forms of ID and a signed application. They require someone to physically walk/drive to the location. And they are usually themselves covered by cameras 24/7.
I had not thought about that before, but you're right. I became curious enough to google how to get a PO box without ID and even Reddit said you pretty much can't do it. Apparently, all rented PO boxes are required to have Postal form 1583. One person did suggest an illegal workaround that I might use in that novel I'll never write. LOL
 
Won’t the medical examiner be able to place the time of death a little more precisely than that? Especially with things like Xana’s food delivery (especially if she got a chance to eat it). Never mind the victims suddenly going dark on social media, etc?

Also, for people who aren’t aware of this … the prosecutor in the Kristin Smart case confirmed after the fact that they were watching Reddit, especially during the trial itself, and used it to help dial in their closing argument. (It seems pretty clear the defense wasn’t, heh.) Anyway, I wouldn’t be shocked if both sides in this case are monitoring Reddit and WS.

If X and E ate the food delivery then that would surely give a very accurate time of death? Having said that, the time frame is quite small anyhow if the car sightings and phone coverage clues are legit, most especially since we know what time the DD driver dropped off.

Altho what evidence do we have that the perpetrator was not already inside the home, upstairs, before the DD, having somehow subdued the two women upstairs?
 
In a murder trial last year the digital forensic investigators found IP addresses for the site that was closed down and found the suspects were posting.

They could see the suspects trying to lead the discussions away from any suspicion on them (their property was searched so people became suspicious).

So the lead investigator got online and deliberately said things to provoke them to see if they might accidentally post something only the killers would know or post other incriminating details etc...

The lead investigator also wanted to provoke them into conversations with each other because they were being wiretapped.

Investigators use SM all the time and when they zeroed in on BK they most likely kept checking his SM accounts to see if he was posting anything only he would know.

2 Cents

That’s happened in several cases I’ve followed with both LE and Defendant active on SM- Tara Grinstead case was blatant.
 
I had not thought about that before, but you're right. I became curious enough to google how to get a PO box without ID and even Reddit said you pretty much can't do it. Apparently, all rented PO boxes are required to have Postal form 1583. One person did suggest an illegal workaround that I might use in that novel I'll never write. LOL
Lol.

Also worth nothing that all providers of private mailboxes are required to register with the USPS and must be able to provide 2 forms of ID from every mailbox holder. So even UPS (top of mind).

If you look at most of the major prosecutions for mass organized tax fraud rings (in the 100 of millions of dollars range) “controlled” residential addresses are now the method of choice for ill gotten goods. Meaning people with legitimate addresses that receive a cut but who have plausible deniability in case LE comes knocking.

Abandoned homes and PO Boxes were/are getting people caught quicker.

MOO
 
In a murder trial last year the digital forensic investigators found IP addresses for the site that was closed down and found the suspects were posting.

They could see the suspects trying to lead the discussions away from any suspicion on them (their property was searched so people became suspicious).

So the lead investigator got online and deliberately said things to provoke them to see if they might accidentally post something only the killers would know or post other incriminating details etc...

The lead investigator also wanted to provoke them into conversations with each other because they were being wiretapped.

Investigators use SM all the time and when they zeroed in on BK they most likely kept checking his SM accounts to see if he was posting anything only he would know.

2 Cents
That’s really cool! Any other details on the case?
 
That’s really cool! Any other details on the case?


 
If X and E ate the food delivery then that would surely give a very accurate time of death? Having said that, the time frame is quite small anyhow if the car sightings and phone coverage clues are legit, most especially since we know what time the DD driver dropped off.

Altho what evidence do we have that the perpetrator was not already inside the home, upstairs, before the DD, having somehow subdued the two women upstairs?
I’m hoping there might be evidence in the form of messages from roommates (individually or on a group text) that pinpoint when a commotion was heard and/or when the masked person was seen. For example, messages asking others to keep the noise level down, or asking to confirm if someone was believed to be in the house, or asking if everything is okay due to hearing crying or other sounds of potential distress, or commenting about the sighting of a man in a mask. Absence of that type of info in the PCA does not necessarily mean it doesn’t exist. JMO.
 
If X and E ate the food delivery then that would surely give a very accurate time of death? Having said that, the time frame is quite small anyhow if the car sightings and phone coverage clues are legit, most especially since we know what time the DD driver dropped off.

Altho what evidence do we have that the perpetrator was not already inside the home, upstairs, before the DD, having somehow subdued the two women upstairs?

It sure should help establish time of death - but probably not any better than simply knowing the time of the delivery.

There are other methods for ascertaining precise time of death, including the study of the byproducts of cellular breakdown in the body. I am very curious as to what methods were actually used - I guess that more than one method was used.

I don't think there's any evidence one way or another that some perpetrator (one without a car noted on video) was inside the house earlier. There has been no mention of any type of "subduing" of anyone. Just knife wounds.

Since the person whose DNA matches that found under/near a victim body, and his car is on video arriving and leaving just after the DD, I think most jurors are going to find it easy to believe BK was at the house.

Was there someone else already there? If BK knows or believes this to be true, he'll need to find a way of saying that at trial (since he's apparently unwilling to introduce those facts in his motion to quash the GJ indictment).

There's never an easy way of proving a negative.

I did notice that AT and company are not claiming that there's no connection between BK and the knife. They are claiming there's no connection between his car/apt and the victims, which is significant - but have not made the same claim re: the knife. Now would be the time to do it (at the hearing re the GJ indictment). I find this omission intriguing.

IMO.
 
New episode of the ABC “King Road Killings” podcast is up. I think it’s the last one before the trial. They cover some evidence stuff (here’s the evidence we know about, here’s how the defense will likely try to counter it), but they also have a nice interview with Ethan’s family in the back half.
 
I’m hoping there might be evidence in the form of messages from roommates (individually or on a group text) that pinpoint when aay commotion was heard and/or when the masked person was seen. For example, messages asking others to keep the noise level down, or asking to confirm if someone was believed to be in the house, or asking if everything is okay due to hearing crying or other sounds of potential distress, or commenting about the sighting of a man in a mask. Absence of that type of info in the PCA does not necessarily mean it doesn’t exist. JMO.

So you want more than just DM's statements? It's pretty amazing that there is an eyewitness at all, to the masked intruder.

I guess I'm not getting why pinpointing the time of the deaths any further than what DM and the neighbors' camera provide is necessary (plus, of course, the ME's estimate). These deaths took place within minutes of each other. If BK did these crimes as alleged, he had about 16 minutes to enter the house (presumably through an unlocked slider), kill four people, exit (and take off his shoes, etc) and drive away.

Time of death is almost never down to the minute. Since DM noted the time of the whimpering and the "I will help" comments (more or less - she does step to her door more than once), and some sounds are heard at the same time on the neighbor's ring cam, it all seems consistent with the 16 minutes the Hyundai was outside.

Could someone have come in earlier, from the woods, with no car? Sure - but someone, somewhere will have to provide evidence of that, because otherwise, everything still points back to the young criminologist from PA.

IMO.
 
I had not thought about that before, but you're right. I became curious enough to google how to get a PO box without ID and even Reddit said you pretty much can't do it. Apparently, all rented PO boxes are required to have Postal form 1583. One person did suggest an illegal workaround that I might use in that novel I'll never write. LOL
There is a building that houses over 2000 “boxes”, most in the name of LLCs, in my industry. It makes it very difficult for them to be sued. Many are slumlords who skirt any system, and have lawyers that make it difficult to sue. However, I don’t think that anyone is receiving packages to the PO Boxes there. Just checks.

I’ve had Amazon issues when delivering to hinky addresses. Will Amazon deliver to a PO Box? I know I even had to fudge the address for my kid’s college packages and write it differently.
 
So you want more than just DM's statements? It's pretty amazing that there is an eyewitness at all, to the masked intruder.

I guess I'm not getting why pinpointing the time of the deaths any further than what DM and the neighbors' camera provide is necessary (plus, of course, the ME's estimate). These deaths took place within minutes of each other. If BK did these crimes as alleged, he had about 16 minutes to enter the house (presumably through an unlocked slider), kill four people, exit (and take off his shoes, etc) and drive away.

Time of death is almost never down to the minute. Since DM noted the time of the whimpering and the "I will help" comments (more or less - she does step to her door more than once), and some sounds are heard at the same time on the neighbor's ring cam, it all seems consistent with the 16 minutes the Hyundai was outside.

Could someone have come in earlier, from the woods, with no car? Sure - but someone, somewhere will have to provide evidence of that, because otherwise, everything still points back to the young criminologist from PA.

IMO.
I was responding to a post on the topic of pinpointing the time of death through examination of stomach contents in the event the defense challenges the timeline. I was suggesting there may be digital evidence beyond what is in the PCA. It was not my intention to suggest it will be needed, just that it could be additional pertinent info that could be more specific than an analysis of stomach contents. JMO.
 
There is a building that houses over 2000 “boxes”, most in the name of LLCs, in my industry. It makes it very difficult for them to be sued. Many are slumlords who skirt any system, and have lawyers that make it difficult to sue. However, I don’t think that anyone is receiving packages to the PO Boxes there. Just checks.

I’ve had Amazon issues when delivering to hinky addresses. Will Amazon deliver to a PO Box? I know I even had to fudge the address for my kid’s college packages and write it differently.
As far as I know, USPS is the only carrier that delivers to PO boxes.
 
It sure should help establish time of death - but probably not any better than simply knowing the time of the delivery.

There are other methods for ascertaining precise time of death, including the study of the byproducts of cellular breakdown in the body. I am very curious as to what methods were actually used - I guess that more than one method was used.

I don't think there's any evidence one way or another that some perpetrator (one without a car noted on video) was inside the house earlier. There has been no mention of any type of "subduing" of anyone. Just knife wounds.

Since the person whose DNA matches that found under/near a victim body, and his car is on video arriving and leaving just after the DD, I think most jurors are going to find it easy to believe BK was at the house.

Was there someone else already there? If BK knows or believes this to be true, he'll need to find a way of saying that at trial (since he's apparently unwilling to introduce those facts in his motion to quash the GJ indictment).

There's never an easy way of proving a negative.

I did notice that AT and company are not claiming that there's no connection between BK and the knife. They are claiming there's no connection between his car/apt and the victims, which is significant - but have not made the same claim re: the knife. Now would be the time to do it (at the hearing re the GJ indictment). I find this omission intriguing.

IMO.

I think the victims themselves can greatly assist in shutting down any challenge by the defense specific to the time of death. For example, the victims were all out late leaving a relatively small window of time when their deaths in their bedrooms were even possible, supported by the victims' use of their electronics, and the surviving roommate's knowledge of when she saw the intruder. The surviving roommate is critical here because she's the only direct evidence -- all the rest is circumstantial. And this ^^ is before you add the ME's report, the timestamped surveillance of BK's vehicle, and BK's cell phone forensics linking him to the crime scene location.

It's not like BK was a student at ISU who lived nearby for the defense to rationalize why BK could be detected in the area during the odd hour! I think it would be an ill-conceived strategy for the defense to even think of challenging the evidence of BK's vehicle passing the house more than once. Actually, it would be downright stupid! MOO
 
My own view on what might have "triggered" the murders on that weekend run more to the cumulative stressors in Kohberger's life.

Lots of people who are into true crime are also into thinking about crime. We even joke here on WS about "writing a novel" about crime and using some of the specifics of real crimes. People who spend a lot of time thinking about crime and studying crime end up knowing way more about crime.

Do such people sometimes fantasize about committing crimes? Yes.

IOW, I think Kohberger had put in hours of thinking about crime, about how people get caught, what he would do if he wanted to go homicidal. I also have a theory that this type of fantasy helped him self-soothe. Made him less anxious. It's well-known that fantasies can reduce uncomfortable or undesirable drives that lead to undesirable behaviors.

In terms of narrowing down why he finally went off the rails (which he may not have intended to do when he used those crime fantasies are part of his personal stress reduction system), I think it's important to look at the structural conditions of his life - in other words, really obvious facts.

He had vastly increased his "opportunity" window by moving out of his parents' home and across the country. I believe he began thinking about peeping, creeping and more while back in PA, but that he was immediately engaged in this kind of "recon" when he got to the dual campuses in WA and ID. The absence, at last, of parental supervision (and maybe even sisterly comment) was achieved.

But it was also a very high stress environment for him. I believe he wanted to excel in school, in criminology. He felt he had loads and loads of insight to offer (why was that? Because he felt he had a criminal mind that he had "turned to the good.") Why do I believe that? Because I've met several people who thought this way and who are criminals (two of them are criminal cops).

When it became clear that he was not accepted in a special group of people (fellow criminologists), he was hurt, outraged and on edge. He wanted to "show 'em."

This state could have gone on longer without him killing but something (perhaps the near certainty of losing his TA-ship) pushed him into overdrive. We don't know if he had targets elsewhere, if that woman in his program who allowed him into her apartment escaped by the skin of her teeth, or not.

So, my thinking is that he resisted certain other stalked targets (and was probably thinking about young women as targets day-in and day-out) and focused on a few other factors that are often spoken of under the topic of "victimology." How does a killer choose their targets?

I think he knew crimes committed in another jurisdiction (than where one's own ID shows a residence) are less likely to be solved. So he likely focused on Moscow as his fantasy crime target. I think he had shifting targets in his mind and may still have been pondering exactly who to pick on that night in November. And here's where this thinking has led me:

The murderer was filled with anger and resentment at a particular situation and particular targets. Specifically, he was jealous of the free and easy, ordinary college life of 18-22 year olds, especially ones regarded as beautiful, handsome and popular. I believe he had been to the party scene in Moscow and found himself (once again) on the outside. He likely was unable to focus on his own interpersonal skills as part of this; there were real barriers to being accepted by undergrads because...of his intensity, and his actual age. He may even have pictured university life to be a more...academic experience. What he found instead was tons of underage drinking, superficial silliness on weekends, junk food eating, general partying - and probably, quite a bit of sexual license.

But even among these (to his mind) bacchanalian students, he was unacceptable. Even when drunk, sorority girls ignored him and turned to others. He could not find the magic way that other young men had of entering fully into university society and so, he was very angry at university society and part of his motivation was landing blows on that very society.

The victims in this crime go beyond the murder victims. I don't think Kohberger is the type who spends a lot of time in compassion towards others or thinks about souls or the value of human life. The dead are dead. But the families live on.

So, part of what snapped in Kohberger lashed out at parents and siblings of his victims as well. This includes his own family, whom he made into victims and, well, pariahs. He hated college students, young beautiful blonde women (see Elliot Rodger manifesto), hard drinking university students, undergraduates who weren't working hard/struggling to do their best (as he felt he had done). He hated the families of these people - and somewhere inside, he also hated/hates his own family. Mom is massively anti-death penalty; her son goes to a place that has the DP and commits a DP crime (with no insanity defense available). He struck fear into the "party types" across America. He also committed his crimes in a small town; he struck fear into people in less urban places everywhere (like the killers in "In Cold Blood").

He terrorized the college age community and I think the affects are still there (there are maybe 10 online forums about this crime, most of the participants seem to be college age - and I'm sure I haven't counted all of them).

He did this in the midst of an interesting cultural transition in the US (fewer young people are getting married; fewer are having sex; women in particular are having less sex/planning not to ever marry/ planning not to have children). Men are expressing frustration and anger (and entitlement) about this situation every where I go (including my classroom - I'd say that nearly all the men say they won't consider a serious dating relationship with a woman who does not want at least 3 children - preferably more; meanwhile the women have been adamant for the past 20 years that with rare exceptions, they want only 2 - and right now, 20% say they want zero; the men and women argue pretty intensely over this).

Like Elliot Rodger, Kohberger had reasons behind his various targets and I won't be surprised if we eventually learn he had alternate targets (I think he's planning to talk about all this once the trial is over - at least to a criminologist; he may want co-authorship of articles as well).

IOW, there were both personal/structural issues coming to a head; the limits of his already-envisioned plan and already-chosen fantasy targets; PLUS there's an ideological thing going on as well - his targets are not merely personal, he thinks he's some kind of activist. I don't think he charged into King Road with this activism in the forefront of his mind - it's in the background. I do think the troubles at WSU that week/month led directly to him losing it right before the students started trickling away for the holidays. I think the students on King Road were in some sense "stand-ins" for the students he hated back at WSU and also that they were stand-ins for the life he never led and the women who wouldn't have him.

He had envisioned a whole new start in grad school (doesn't everyone?) and felt grad school gave him a Badge of Honor that would trigger a better social life than what he'd had. Instead, he still felt helpless, disoriented, and misunderstood. He likely used the same psychological techniques to amp himself up that he had been using for years in his creeper/stalker phase.

ALL my own SPECULATION and hoping some find this readable or a place to jump off of - as we wait for what is likely to be a trial postponed and a lot of months of very little new information.

TL;DR. Kohberger felt entitled and inadequate; developed real hatred for undergrads and women; acted out for reasons we can only guess at.
 
Agree about Dateline but .....

I don't believe AT would tell the jury that
"Yes the prosecution has a solid DNA match to Mr Kohberger and we don't dispute that since he did handle the sheath and the knife but decided not to purchase them."

The prosecution is doing everything they can to distance BK from the DNA - not confirm it is his DNA.

“There is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims.”

I don't think that is necessarily exculpatory evidence. There are many spree killings and home invasion killings, where they was no known connection between victims and killer. It's often just a matter of opportunity.

Besides, there could be a 'connection' between them that its not observable, if he just happened to notice one or more of them, online or around town, and watched them secretly.
“Presumably, the Defense is expected to accept at face value that the sheath had touch DNA just waiting for testing by all the FBI’s myriad resources,” the filing scoffs.

The defense’s argument also points out several perceived gaps in the prosecution’s case, including the “total lack of DNA evidence from the victims” in the suspect’s apartment and car, as well as the genetic material of three additional unknown males that was found at the murder scene.
None of this DNA matches that of Bryan Kohberger.

Why is that surprising? This was a well known party house. I'm surprised there was only 3 unknown samples found.
“The state apparently only wants to prevent Mr. Kohberger from seeing how the investigative genetic genealogy profile was created and how many other people the FBI chose to ignore during their investigation.”

What? Are they accusing the FBI of 'choosing to ignore' other people from the genealogy profile??????????

I hope so, because that is easily explained. I don't think anyone else from that profile could have been anywhere near the crime scene at the crucial time.

 
As far as I know, USPS is the only carrier that delivers to PO boxes.

I've had a mailbox without interruption for 30+ years and they've come a long way.

In addition to being able to see an image of the mail that's waiting for you in your box, any courier service such as FedEx, UPS, DHL, (Amazon, and Ebay), can also deliver to your PO Box by the box holder using the Post Office's street address where the shipment is received directly by the Postal staff (who puts the delivered item in your box or holds it for pickup). Believe me, it was a godsend during COVID!

Also, relative to ordering from Amazon -- there's also the option to collect your order at a
Locker -- or send someone to collect it for you. JMO
 
So you want more than just DM's statements? It's pretty amazing that there is an eyewitness at all, to the masked intruder.

I guess I'm not getting why pinpointing the time of the deaths any further than what DM and the neighbors' camera provide is necessary (plus, of course, the ME's estimate). These deaths took place within minutes of each other. If BK did these crimes as alleged, he had about 16 minutes to enter the house (presumably through an unlocked slider), kill four people, exit (and take off his shoes, etc) and drive away.

Time of death is almost never down to the minute. Since DM noted the time of the whimpering and the "I will help" comments (more or less - she does step to her door more than once), and some sounds are heard at the same time on the neighbor's ring cam, it all seems consistent with the 16 minutes the Hyundai was outside.

Could someone have come in earlier, from the woods, with no car? Sure - but someone, somewhere will have to provide evidence of that, because otherwise, everything still points back to the young criminologist from PA.

IMO.
Very good point some people keep missing - your quote:

Could someone have come in earlier, from the woods, with no car? Sure - but someone, somewhere will have to provide evidence of that, because otherwise, everything still points back to the young criminologist from PA.

Right.  A defense team can't just make up their case, they need evidence to back it up.

"There isnt enough evidence to show it is BK's car"

OK, what specific evidence in those videos shows it could be a different vehicle other than Kohberger's vehicle?

"Touch DNA is not enough to get a reliable DNA profile of BK"

OK, what specific DNA evidence shows there are DNA sequences being left out?

""The killers could be one or more of the 3 males who left unidentified DNA at the house"

OK, what evidence shows that this "John Doe" DNA was found near or on the victims?
What evidence is there that shows it isn't probable that an innocent guest left his DNA?

"Someone else left the sheath"

OK, what forensic evidence and/or video evidence and/or cell tower evidence and/or witness description - points to a different suspect? And how did Kohberger's DNA get on the sheath?

"The GJ was biased due to local publicity"

Ok, what evidence is there that people in Latham County are more biased than people in the surrounding Counties? What evidence shows that juror #1, #2, #3, #4, ETC..... answered juror questions in a biased way?

Defense won't get an acquittal with blanket statements.

2 Cents
 
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