4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

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When BK has his penalty phase trial if convicted, then everything about him is fair game to keep the jury from giving him a death sentence and if a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL can testify to physical emotional mental problems from say, his whole lifetime with VS, then this might be seen by the jury as a mitigating factor.

The jury weighs what they think should be or should not be considered a mitigating factor. If there is a penalty phase trial I expect psychiatrists and family to testify. Points about what a good person he was and points about physical mental emotional problems.

Also, all DP defendants are required to have mitigation specialists on the team.

2 Cents
LWOP would be acceptable, though. JMO

I was wondering if the defense was planning to use that information as part of his actual defense, to explain why he would not have been the killer.

If they plan to use that, he'll need to be fully examined and assessed by professionals.
 
MOO having a condition, or mental illness is immaterial in my opinion except for the first episode of schizophenia, where it is in fact possible for the person to actually hallucinate they are in danger or are commanded to kill someone.
After the first episode they know there is something wrong with their thinking, even when having subsequent episodes.
Many people suffer from many grievious things and terrible abuse and do not murder, a murderer should not get consideration for the same suffering.
 
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LWOP would be acceptable, though. JMO

I was wondering if the defense was planning to use that information as part of his actual defense, to explain why he would not have been the killer.

If they plan to use that, he'll need to be fully examined and assessed by professionals.

Yes

I remember from the DP Wagner Cases that all kinds of investigative and mental health experts were hired.
For a Penalty Phase DP trial the defendants have to be competent and not mentally ill or diminished in any way to even get the DP.

I expect BK to be examined by just about everyone.

I am for LWOP....(Maximum Security)

2 Cents
 
Good points thanks.

Here's the thing......I believe for any weight to be given to VS as a contributing factor a qualified psychologist or doctor needed to get it into his medical record.

Now, if it is in his medical record from when he was only 15 years old I am not sure that it would help him because it was over 10 years later when he committed his crimes.

If VS was such a hindering influence in his emotional and mental well-being then why go 10 years without consulting a professional to get medication to help deal with it? I mean why did he never go to get medical help for it as an adult?

The VS disease is a legitimate mental/health diagnoses but juries need medical proof that medical attention was sought, doctors diagnosed it, medication did not help.

***

If VS made BK violent then the mitigation expert needs to put on witnessess or police reports to show past violent episodes and all I am seeing is he put a friend's head in a headlock as a teenager and told his dad:

"Don't do something stupid" when BK stole his sister's phone to buy drugs.

And there is another issue....

Were BK's VS symptoms from or aggravated by his Heroin use? I believe his Heroin use is documented.

This is another whole ball of wax.

2 Cents

If it is in his medical records when he was 15 it is absolutely relevant to his actions in his twenties. In his posts he mentions that it had been going on for years, as had the DP/DR that accompanied it. 1) Experiencing DP/DR kind of disconnect for years during the formative teen years is going to have long lasting effects on his personality and socialization. 2) VSS, as a general rule, doesn't just go away on its own. It may lessen, and the patient may have better adapting skills over time, but chances of it spontaneously disappearing are close to zero. Even any success with medication usually results in just reducing it, not erasing it entirely. For patients who get little help from medications, the one of the commonly recommended strategies for dealing with it is----literally to learn how to not fixate on it/begin to ignore it. For people with certain co-occurring mental health issues, that can be nearly impossible.

He did try medication for it--Topamax (migraine medication often tried for VSS because VSS can sometimes be caused by migraines). He had a very bad reaction to it. He mentions the doctor trying several medications, but not by name--the usuals are Lamictal, gabapentin, propranalol, benzos, and Zoloft. My own son did several different regimens, most had little to no positive effect (oh, but the side effects.....ugh).

He reports this started long before his heroin usage. Hallucinogenic drugs can be the cause of an associated visual snow syndrome called HPPD, but heroin wouldn't cause it. It could worsen VSS in a person who already has it. The heroin usage could certainly make the DP/DR worse.

There is no proof that he didn't continue to see specialists or try medications throughout his late teens and early twenties. I can tell you that after multiple medication regimens provided little improvement but a ton of side effects, my son's neuropthalmologist said he'd probably be better off stopping the medications and focusing on therapy/reducing inflammation/etc.

Let me clarify--the VS in and of itself wouldn't make him violent. The resulting DP/DR combined with other likely mental health issues that can be associated with this can form and shape a personality into the kind of individual who can commit the kind of crime that he is accused of.

How did he get through degrees with all this? Rigid self control and the ability to mask just barely enough to get by in specific environments.

None of this excuses what he did. Personally, I don't think it should make a difference between LWOP and death penalty, because I no longer support the death penalty. None of this is a direct A to B line from dots in your vision to brutally murdering people. But they are pieces of the puzzle of how he formed into the person he is. And that's something worth studying.
 
If it is in his medical records when he was 15 it is absolutely relevant to his actions in his twenties. In his posts he mentions that it had been going on for years, as had the DP/DR that accompanied it. 1) Experiencing DP/DR kind of disconnect for years during the formative teen years is going to have long lasting effects on his personality and socialization. 2) VSS, as a general rule, doesn't just go away on its own. It may lessen, and the patient may have better adapting skills over time, but chances of it spontaneously disappearing are close to zero. Even any success with medication usually results in just reducing it, not erasing it entirely. For patients who get little help from medications, the one of the commonly recommended strategies for dealing with it is----literally to learn how to not fixate on it/begin to ignore it. For people with certain co-occurring mental health issues, that can be nearly impossible.

He did try medication for it--Topamax (migraine medication often tried for VSS because VSS can sometimes be caused by migraines). He had a very bad reaction to it. He mentions the doctor trying several medications, but not by name--the usuals are Lamictal, gabapentin, propranalol, benzos, and Zoloft. My own son did several different regimens, most had little to no positive effect (oh, but the side effects.....ugh).

He reports this started long before his heroin usage. Hallucinogenic drugs can be the cause of an associated visual snow syndrome called HPPD, but heroin wouldn't cause it. It could worsen VSS in a person who already has it. The heroin usage could certainly make the DP/DR worse.

There is no proof that he didn't continue to see specialists or try medications throughout his late teens and early twenties. I can tell you that after multiple medication regimens provided little improvement but a ton of side effects, my son's neuropthalmologist said he'd probably be better off stopping the medications and focusing on therapy/reducing inflammation/etc.

Let me clarify--the VS in and of itself wouldn't make him violent. The resulting DP/DR combined with other likely mental health issues that can be associated with this can form and shape a personality into the kind of individual who can commit the kind of crime that he is accused of.

How did he get through degrees with all this? Rigid self control and the ability to mask just barely enough to get by in specific environments.

None of this excuses what he did. Personally, I don't think it should make a difference between LWOP and death penalty, because I no longer support the death penalty. None of this is a direct A to B line from dots in your vision to brutally murdering people. But they are pieces of the puzzle of how he formed into the person he is. And that's something worth studying.

Thanks.

I will agree with you - because you know about this - that a diagnosis and treatment at age 15 could still be considered for some behavior at age 27.

But personally I myself do not see this as a mitigating factor. A mitigating factor in his poor people skills yes, but not in his aggravated murder crimes. Absolutely not.

2 Cents
 
If visual impairment, drug use, and mental torment is ruled irrelevant as a contributing factor for the crime, why should it be considered during the mitigation phase?

It might not be but the mitigation/defense has to do anything they can to get LWOP. And it could be, might be, illegal to ignore things like this because this s a DP case.

Another consideration....

On November 13th 2022 was BK.....

1.) Suffering visual impairment?
2.) Engaging in illegal drug use?
3.) Suffering mental torment?

A person can be mentally ill when a teen and then mentally competent years later. Whatever BK had as a teen I do not think it had anything to do with November 13, 2022.

I think it is just smoke and mirrors excuses this VS because he was in grad school and did great in college. One of his professors gave him a raving great review.

2 Cents
 
It might not be but the mitigation/defense has to do anything they can to get LWOP. And it could be, might be, illegal to ignore things like this because this s a DP case.

Another consideration....

On November 13th 2022 was BK.....

1.) Suffering visual impairment?
2.) Engaging in illegal drug use?
3.) Suffering mental torment?

A person can be mentally ill when a teen and then mentally competent years later. Whatever BK had as a teen I do not think it had anything to do with November 13, 2022.

I think it is just smoke and mirrors excuses this VS because he was in grad school and did great in college. One of his professors gave him a raving great review.

2 Cents
Agree. Murder is indeendent of privilige or hardship. Besides to many factors is how lesser punishments have been finessed for the white and/ or rich. Incredibly damaging to justice.

Example: the mitigating affliction of "afflenza."

MOO: Kill people get LWOP or possibly DP.
 
Is it known what VSS is exactly, physiologically? I mean, is it a problem in the brain or in the eyes or something else? IIUC, it manifests as a vision problem, like seeing static or dots or SNOW (hence the name), but are there other common physical symptoms? I suppose they don't know what causes it? How common is it? Could you have it and not know it?
 
Is it known what VSS is exactly, physiologically? I mean, is it a problem in the brain or in the eyes or something else? IIUC, it manifests as a vision problem, like seeing static or dots or SNOW (hence the name), but are there other common physical symptoms? I suppose they don't know what causes it? How common is it? Could you have it and not know it?
It's neurological.

My partner meets the criteria. She also has had continuous migraine visual aura symptoms for over twenty years. The two conditions can overlap, but VSS can also present in people who don't experience migraines. It's not really understood why or how it develops, though there are theories. Most people have it for life once it begins.


MOO
 
MOO having a condition, or mental illness is immaterial in my opinion except for the first episode of schizophenia, where it is in fact possible for the person to actually hallucinate they are in danger or are commanded to kill someone.
After the first episode they know there is something wrong with their thinking, even when having subsequent episodes.
Many people suffer from many grievious things and terrible abuse and do not murder, a murderer should not get consideration for the same suffering.


Too often today, I feel as though murderers are labeled "mentally ill," and that's supposed to explain why they did the unthinkable.

But, as you say -- there are many who suffer yet do not turn to murder.

Maybe I can understand cases of post-partum depression where a woman's hormones are out of whack and causing her to fall into a deep depression, whereby she can't make logical decisions.

But, to violently take the lives of four young people at random? I can't go there. Obviously, there is something wrong in the head of anyone who could do something like that, but I don't think "mental illness" should be a consideration in sentencing crimes of that nature.
 
Agree. Murder is indeendent of privilige or hardship. Besides to many factors is how lesser punishments have been finessed for the white and/ or rich. Incredibly damaging to justice.

Example: the mitigating affliction of "afflenza."

MOO: Kill people get LWOP or possibly DP.

Boxer, the State of Idaho agrees with you

18-207. MENTAL CONDITION NOT A DEFENSE — Mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct.


In the Lori Vallow Idaho case she was declared incompetent to stand trial and the judge put her in a mental health facility twice to deal with it. She was eventually deemed able to participate in her own trial - declared competent to stand trial - and she then did.

However, BK's VSS can be - might be - brought up in the Penalty Phase Trial if he is found guilty.
We know that AT is very aggressive and likely would use anything she could find in BK's background to use as a mitigating factor.

2 Cents
 
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Quick question and sorry if this has been discussed in the past. If so, I missed it.

If BK's defense attorneys are interested in using this VSS syndrome to avoid the DP, why don't they just negotiate a plea deal in exchange for LWOP? It would save the state and county a lot of money for a trial and spare the victims' families having to sit through it.
 
You're welcome, I like to provide the source for those who care to read it. He's debatable and he states himself he reserves the right to change his opinion after further examination.

That's an AT strategy all day long, and I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out during trial - Sy Ray verses FBI Cast expert.

JMO


Sy Ray said he reserves the right to change his opinion b/c 2-3% of what he says is the most important info is missing. Nothing tricky or fishy going on with Sy Ray from what I can see.

Also, considering this the only time he has ever worked for the defense I'd say if he wasn't 100% positive in his statements he wouldn't be stating them under oath. That is of course if ever wants the state to use his services moving forward and to retain his credibility.
 
Quick question and sorry if this has been discussed in the past. If so, I missed it.

If BK's defense attorneys are interested in using this VSS syndrome to avoid the DP, why don't they just negotiate a plea deal in exchange for LWOP? It would save the state and county a lot of money for a trial and spare the victims' families having to sit through it.
It's a matter of law that defense teams must have a mitigation specialist serving if the defendant may receive the DP if convicted. It would be irresponsible of the defense team not to consider mitigation issues now (although frankly we have no idea if VSS is being considered. Just because that's being discussed on WS doesn't make it so.) There is little time between the trial and the penalty phase to work on mitigation issues if a defendant is convicted. But any decent defense team will be most interested in obtaining a not guilty verdict if at all possible. So they're juggling lots of balls. Personally I wouldn't expect a plea deal to be pursued by either side especially just to save money. And that includes the state.
MOO
 
Quick question and sorry if this has been discussed in the past. If so, I missed it.

If BK's defense attorneys are interested in using this VSS syndrome to avoid the DP, why don't they just negotiate a plea deal in exchange for LWOP? It would save the state and county a lot of money for a trial and spare the victims' families having to sit through it.

My guess? Because BK wants a trial. I don't think he much cares about incarceration, LWOP or the DP.

A trial gives him something interesting to do.

He is not moved by what moves other people.

JMO
 
Quick question and sorry if this has been discussed in the past. If so, I missed it.

If BK's defense attorneys are interested in using this VSS syndrome to avoid the DP, why don't they just negotiate a plea deal in exchange for LWOP? It would save the state and county a lot of money for a trial and spare the victims' families having to sit through it.
Good question.
MOO because he is obviously functioning fine now, and he was funtioning fine at the time of the crime, even if he was failing to to his job as a TA which was to assist and learn from his faculty advisor as learned how to teach students.
 
Trials are about evidence. The defense would have to show evidence with expert testimony, evidence to prove that person A did this and was seen leaving this and so on.

Trials are not...maybe, um, if we had more evidence, I think, could have....etc....

I get tired of all the maybe, could haves, exonerating evidence is missing, etc.....

2 Cents

MOO

According to court documents in regards to the DNA the comparison showed a statistical match specifically, the STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if the defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from the general population is the source.

Part of the problem is the fact that the prosecution filed a motion to prevent the disclosure of the IGG information to the defense. The defense opposes the motion and filed a motion to compel requesting discovery of everything pertaining to the IGG investigation, including the family tree built by the FBI.

The prosecution expects the defense to just take their word that BK's DNA is a match but the defense wants to see how they came to this conclusion. For some reason the prosecution doesn't want to show their work which makes no sense whatsoever imo.


Two other problems with the touch DNA it was reported that Idaho lab did not initially obtain a viable DNA sample. DNA extraction and purification before PCR amplification by STANDARD methods like swabs and sticky tape being used for extraction before removal of contaminants (which could be something like bacteria which is also DNA) - causes an average loss of about 70% of the sample. I don't think Idaho lab even has a new micro vacuum process that's been invented.

This is a huge problem for low copy number touch DNA. Because Othram is not accredited, they employ a method of extraction called DIRECT extraction which also skips doing purification. It sounds like this method applies amplification methods directly to the object with surface DNA. DIRECT extraction is not permitted to be used by accredited labs, and is not legally permissible as evidence of a crime. Putting the development of an SNP profile for IGG done by Othram aside - did Idaho have Othram extract the STR sample they used for both CODIS and comparison to the Kohbergers?

The other problem is using a covertly obtained DNA sample from his father as a basis for arrest in order to obtain a buccal swab from him. Although it is not an actual law enacted by congress, both FBI and Federal forensic guidelines have strong wording against covertly obtaining and using DNA from a suspect's relative . It is a violation of the relative's rights against search and seizure without probable cause. His father was not a suspect. It is legal for them to collect trash searching for a suspect's DNA. Therefore when they were testing trash samples it was only permissible for them to to do straight match comparisons just like CODIS software does. It's either a 100% match or it's no match.

Any analysis beyond that is a violation against the person whom the DNA belonged to who was not a suspect under investigation. STR match is common for doing paternity tests between a male and his male offspring although it is preferable to have a sample from the mother of the child in order to make a 100% determination. I don't think you'll find any instance in which a low copy number touch DNA sample was used for a paternity test comparison, or any accredited lab that would be willing to do that even for purposes not involving a criminal case.

https://accounts.google.com/Service...p&hl=en&next=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DqmytVEHU3Uw&hl=en
Again for the record I'm not saying or do I think BK is innocent. I just don't think the prosecution's case is a slam dunk from what we know. The only evidence that we have that BK has anything to do with the crime is the touch DNA and that evidence is highly questionable in itself when you break it down.


All MOO
 
Quick question and sorry if this has been discussed in the past. If so, I missed it.

If BK's defense attorneys are interested in using this VSS syndrome to avoid the DP, why don't they just negotiate a plea deal in exchange for LWOP? It would save the state and county a lot of money for a trial and spare the victims' families having to sit through it.

Because I do not believe that BK is willing to do any of this. All of this would be required of him to negotiate a plea deal - to not have a trial......

1.) Plead guilty to all 4 aggravated homicides plus burglary.
2.) Plead guilty in open court in front of the judge, victims' families, the TV camera, the general public.
3.) Go to court for his sentencing hearing.
4.) At the sentencing hearing he would be forced to listen to all of the victim impact statements.
5.) Have no chance to appeal.
6.) Would have to quit lying to his family and lawyers that he is innocent.

I believe BK is "A Know It All." He is right and the prosecution has it wrong and he won't admit anything different.

2 Cents
 

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