A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[Rumpole]

There would have to something a bit special about this theorised evidence at the remains site that causes another search at the A's house.
Caylee lived at that house so it is only to be expected that she might have picked up matching fibres etc. Even loose blankets etc may well match those in the house but could be expained as quite legitimately with Caylee wherever she went.

 

[MomofBoys]

With the advent of chloroform found in the trunk, you would think they would have looked for chloroform in the house before now and would already have those reports released. Pings have her at or around the Anthony house, computer forensics has someone on the computer at 3PM on that day and then abruptly stops. Something at the discovery scene tied back to the Anthony household. I see video of them picking up a pillow and pesticide.

I don't mean to sound flippant at all, but computer usage always abruptly stops. I go to Target, computer usage stops. I go to Disney for the day, and computer usage stops. I'm not discounting computer usage as an investigative techniques, but very few people in this world have lives regimented to the point that you can point to any given day and say "Yes, this must be the day because it deviates from a pattern." You'd have to have an incredibly consistent pattern before and after, and to me, Casey's records don't indicate it to the extent that it'd be some kind of smoking gun. Especially when you take into account that Casey wasn't the only one to use the computer.

Something at the discovery scene tied back to the Anthony household. I see video of them picking up a pillow and pesticide.

What would they have immediately seen at the scene to indicate she was suffocated? She was completely skeletonized. I'd imagine maybe they took the pillow with the matching case to a sheet wrapped around Caylee's remains. In a rage suffocation scenario, why the duct tape? Who would have heard a two year-old little girl's screams under the weight of a pillow and pressure? Would KC have sought out duct tape, found it, cut it, apply it, all in a rage?

The pesticide is interesting, but that would seem to support poisoning, not suffocation. I don't think any chloroform theorists are wedded to it for the sake of it being chloroform. Pesticide wasn't found in the trunk, and the timing of the seizure wouldn't indicate that, either. Was there something with the remains that woul point to poison? Did the bag or a sheet reek of pesticide that many months later?

I just took issue to people being called NG groupies because of the chloroform theory, when out of ANY theory, it's the most plausible based on evidence to which we are privy. Am I saying we know everything? Absolutely not. Quite the opposite.

I'm not a chloroform theory enthusiast. In fact, I get so cranky when people say that KC "accidentally" poisoned Caylee with it. There's no such thing, IMO. I do think there's more evidence to point to it than suffocation, though, and to have someone be condescending to boot...it was irritating.

 

[ibyoungr]

[/INDENT]


What makes you think the computer useage was stopped 'abruptly'. Seems SOP Casey got off the computer around 3pm on almost a daily basis. Yes, something at the discovery scene tied back to Anthony household, not something in the trunk of the car.
My question to you is, what does any of that have to do with chloroform being out of the question, and making suffocation so much more plausible?
Lanie

I would not say chloroform is completely out of question. As stated above, if they come back with evidence of it being in the house then I will go with it. However, if she did use chloroform.. it would have been a one time incident. I still do not see Casey making the chloroform or evidence of purchase on the net. Could she have been using it for sex or partying.. and got it from "a source." Absolutely. I just do not go with her using it to knock Caylee out on a REGULAR basis so she could go party theory.

Could this be an accidental drowning.. while Casey was busy on the computer.. Absolutely.


However, that being said.... if this was premediated.. why this day.. why this time why this very moment between 3pm and 4 pm on this particular day? Why not after ABC party when her mom nailed her about not working and telling her she was not going to baby sit while she partied? I think she was in a rage due to the fact she could not have her mother babysit that night of June 16th. Her life was and lies were falling apart quickly and she needed to act quickly. Jesse could not or did not offer to watch Caylee.. she wanted to be with Tony... it happened in a flash and a pillow is more handy than chemical. Casey had plenty of opportunity from March to June to "take care of Caylee" and create a better lie. Why the 16th after a huge fight with her mom if it was premeditated? Seems like she would have planned a specific time and place(away from the Anthony home.) Could she have had a split-second premediation.. I am going to take care of this right now and used the nearest object?

I am not trying to start anything other than discussion on possible scenarios other than accidental poisoning by chloroform and or drowning her on purpose/accident. Suffocation is not really an accident and may it be or not be pre-mediation.... My comment to JWG about the NG theory was out of frustration as I think the board got stuck only on 2 theories.

All theories here may end up "hard to prove" with the shape the remains are in. However, if chloroform is found in the house.. this is a whole new ballgame.

How she killed her may never be answered....

 

[Jolynna]

I don't mean to sound flippant at all, but computer usage always abruptly stops. I go to Target, computer usage stops. I go to Disney for the day, and computer usage stops. I'm not discounting computer usage as an investigative techniques, but very few people in this world have lives regimented to the point that you can point to any given day and say "Yes, this must be the day because it deviates from a pattern." You'd have to have an incredibly consistent pattern before and after, and to me, Casey's records don't indicate it to the extent that it'd be some kind of smoking gun. Especially when you take into account that Casey wasn't the only one to use the computer.




What would they have immediately seen at the scene to indicate she was suffocated? She was completely skeletonized. I'd imagine maybe they took the pillow with the matching case to a sheet wrapped around Caylee's remains. In a rage suffocation scenario, why the duct tape? Who would have heard a two year-old little girl's screams under the weight of a pillow and pressure? Would KC have sought out duct tape, found it, cut it, apply it, all in a rage?

The pesticide is interesting, but that would seem to support poisoning, not suffocation. I don't think any chloroform theorists are wedded to it for the sake of it being chloroform. Pesticide wasn't found in the trunk, and the timing of the seizure wouldn't indicate that, either. Was there something with the remains that woul point to poison? Did the bag or a sheet reek of pesticide that many months later?

I just took issue to people being called NG groupies because of the chloroform theory, when out of ANY theory, it's the most plausible based on evidence to which we are privy. Am I saying we know everything? Absolutely not. Quite the opposite.

I'm not a chloroform theory enthusiast. In fact, I get so cranky when people say that KC "accidentally" poisoned Caylee with it. There's no such thing, IMO. I do think there's more evidence to point to it than suffocation, though, and to have someone be condescending to boot...it was irritating.

While there were possibly other computer users in the Anthony house, I don't think anybody but Casey was uploading THOSE particular icons.

Like writing Mrs. Casey L. over and over, those icons like like the kind of stuff an immature female would send to her love-interest and buddies.

IMO

 

[Lanie]

I would not say chloroform is completely out of question. As stated above, if they come back with evidence of it being in the house then I will go with it. However, if she did use chloroform.. it would have been a one time incident. I just do not go with her using it to knock Caylee out so she could go party theory.
However, that being said.... if this was premediated.. why this day.. why this time why this very moment between 3pm and 4 pm on this particular day? Why not after ABC party when her mom nailed her about not working and telling her she was not going to baby sit while she partied? I think she was in a rage due to the fact she could not have her mother babysit that night of June 16th.. Jesse could not or did not offer to watch Caylee.. she wanted to be with Tony... it happened in a flash. Casey had plenty of opportunity from March to June.. why the 16th after a huge fight with her mom if it was premeditated? Seems like she would have planned a specific time and place(away from the Anthony home.)

The chloroform did not have to be used as a party aid for Casey to have killed her with it. I don't know if chloroform was the murder weapon, even the ME can't determine how Caylee was killed without the toxicology reports, if then.
You ask why this particular day. Why not this particular day? Premeditation does not mean you pick the day and time to kill someone. You say you think Casey was in a rage because her mother wouldn't babysit June 16th. Cindy claims, and we have no proof to say otherwise, she did not see Casey on the 16th. So if Cindy told her she wouldn't babysit, it would likely have been June 15th. That is a long time for Casey to hold feelings of rage.
It didn't have to happen in a flash. I can't recall the exact pings from that day, but it seems Casey was in the area of her home shortly after 1pm until a little after 4pm.
We aren't privy to every detail of what took place the day before, or even the day before that. We know Cindy took Caylee to Mt. Dora. It is possible the stealing of Cindy's father's money came up, which led to a fight between Cindy and Casey that night. It didn't even have to be a knock down drag out fight. Cindy could have very calmly, with lots of sweethearts and darling dearests thrown in, told Casey after all the lying and stealing, she had gone to far with Grandpa, and there would be no more tolerance of this behavior. At this time, the fight is still rumor.
There is quite a bit of circumstancial evidence Caylee was cramping Casey's style. Maybe having to cancel her plans with TonE on June 16th was the last straw for her. Caylee wasn't an obstacle to being with Jesse, and she wasn't an obstacle to being with RM. She appears to be an obstacle with cop Tony, and certainly with TonE. As horrible as it sounds, it could be something that simple.
Lanie

 

[MomofBoys]

While there were possibly other computer users in the Anthony house, I don't think anybody but Casey was uploading THOSE particular icons.

Oh, no, I'm not saying that. I have no doubt she was using the computer on the day specified. I was speaking more generally about establishing patterns on computers with multiple users.

I just didn't really get the whole "abruptly stopped" thing, because it's not like people wind down their internet usage. You just stop. You don't stop slowly. You don't stop abruptly. "Abruptly" is a loaded word because it implies she screeched to a halt when she decided to kill Caylee or when Caylee drowned in the pool. There's no way to ascertain that. Internet usage just...stops. There aren't skid marks or click speeds, LOL. She could have left the computer to nap or go to Super Target or go have a quickie with Tony.

 

[ibyoungr]

Oh, no, I'm not saying that. I have no doubt she was using the computer on the day specified. I was speaking more generally about establishing patterns on computers with multiple users.

I just didn't really get the whole "abruptly stopped" thing, because it's not like people wind down their internet usage. You just stop. You don't stop slowly. You don't stop abruptly. "Abruptly" is a loaded word because it implies she screeched to a halt when she decided to kill Caylee or when Caylee drowned in the pool. There's no way to ascertain that. Internet usage just...stops. There aren't skid marks or click speeds, LOL. She could have left the computer to nap or go to Super Target or go have a quickie with Tony.

ok ok momofboys.. I should not have used "abruptly"... I just meant it appeared that between being on the phone (up until 3:08) and computer she stops all communications until the flurry of calls.. I will give you that I am speculating.. but aren't we all to some degree?
I do think something happened between 3:08 and 4:19. So I guess I was thinking abruptly...

 

[Jolynna]

After the fight with Cindy what WOULD Casey have done with Caylee on June 16 if Caylee hadn't died?

Casey told Tony she was moving out of the Anthony house BEFORE George last saw Caylee alive. She told Jesse G. the same. Casey packed up all HER stuff to bring to Tony's apartment.

If the fight with Cindy is true, if things were so unbearable for Casey that Casey COULDN'T remain in THAT house where DID she intend for Caylee to stay?

The car trunk? If so...Casey didn't pack extra diapers or a change of clothes so she didn't expect Caylee to survive. Living babies need diapers and clothes.

There are records of Casey getting a place for HERSELF to stay. But...once she did that, she didn't call around to arrange for someone to watch Caylee. Not for one second of the NEXT night did she arrange for a babysitter.

WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO CAYLEE?

 

[Jolynna]

ok ok momofboys.. I should not have used "abruptly"... I just meant it appeared that between being on the phone (up until 3:08) and computer she stops all communications until the flurry of calls.. I will give you that I am speculating.. but aren't we all to some degree?
I do think something happened between 3:08 and 4:19. So I guess I was thinking abruptly...

Jesse G. thought he heard Caylee in the background when he talked to Casey at 2:52 p.m. If that is true, your timing makes sense.

Casey wasn't on the computer but she didn't start pinging away from the Anthony home until 4:18.

 

[Devon]

After the fight with Cindy what WOULD Casey have done with Caylee on June 16 if Caylee hadn't died?

Casey told Tony she was moving out of the Anthony house BEFORE George last saw Caylee alive. She told Jesse G. the same. Casey packed up all HER stuff to bring to Tony's apartment.

Tony said Caylee couldn't go to HIS apartment and stay.

If the fight with Cindy is true, if that is what made things so unbearable for Casey that she COULDN'T remain in THAT house where DID Casey intend for Caylee to stay?

The car trunk? If so...Casey didn't pack extra diapers or a change of clothes so she didn't expect Caylee to survive. Living babies need diapers and clothes.

There are records of Casey getting a place for HERSELF to stay. But after Casey found out Caylee wasn't an allowed overnight guest...WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO CAYLEE?

Can you tell me which evidence documents you have got the following information from please, because I thought I had read all of it and can't recall these specifics:

KC telling TL and JG before 16 June that she was moving out

TL telling her that Caylee could not stay at his apartment

The evidence that KC did not pack anything for Caylee when she left the house on June 16

The records referencing KC planning to get a place to stay by herself.

TIA

 

[MomofBoys]

Jesse G. thought he heard Caylee in the background when he talked to Casey at 2:52 p.m. If that is true, your timing makes sense.

Ugh, that's just chilling, isn't it? I shudder to think...

But didn't Jesse G. say she told [Caylee] to get off the table? To me, it seems odd that a near-three year old would be on the table. It makes more sense that it'd be one of the Yorkies. I know my chihuaua Poppy loves to jump up on the table. My high-spirited toddler doesn't.

Of course, if it WAS Caylee and KC felt like she was being run ragged that day, maybe that's when a switched was flipped. I believe it was premeditated, but I'm not convinced she got up any given morning and said "Today's the day."

Although, the fight with CA might have forced her hand finally.

 

[ibyoungr]

After the fight with Cindy what WOULD Casey have done with Caylee on June 16 if Caylee hadn't died?

Casey told Tony she was moving out of the Anthony house BEFORE George last saw Caylee alive. She told Jesse G. the same. Casey packed up all HER stuff to bring to Tony's apartment.

If the fight with Cindy is true, if that is what made things so unbearable for Casey that Casey COULDN'T remain in THAT house where DID she intend for Caylee to stay?

The car trunk? If so...Casey didn't pack extra diapers or a change of clothes so she didn't expect Caylee to survive. Living babies need diapers and clothes.

There are records of Casey getting a place for HERSELF to stay. But...she didn't call around to arrange for someone to watch Caylee. After Casey found out Caylee wasn't an allowed overnight guest where she was making arrangements to live...WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO CAYLEE?

This has been driving me crazy!!!! I think everything was starting to blow up in her face. It was all downhill from the argument with her mom. By all appearances things were spiraling out of control for Casey fairly quickly.

1. no babysitter tonite(June 16th)
2. no free money from mom
3. no place to live
4. can't be with Tony with Caylee
5. AH would find out soon she stole the money
6. Got to keep Chris, RM, Tony, Tony and every other Tom, Dick and Harry on the line.
7. What to do with AH and moving in together? How was she going to wrap up that lie.


She just could not have kept this going much longer.. I am sure she was stressed. Juggling those balls of lies. Finally, she dropped one ball and it all was over with. Killing Caylee was potentially able to solve (in her mind)
1. no need for a sitter
2. Live off Tony or rip him off and move on to another vicitim
3. could move back in with Mom as a sympathy - as mother of kidnapped child. Mom would feel guilty.
4. Tony would feel sorry
5. She would lie and steal to protect her child and AH would forgive her.


She just did not count on the fact that her lies would not work with LE.

 

[Jolynna]

Can you tell me which evidence documents you have got the following information from please, because I thought I had read all of it and can't recall these specifics:

KC telling TL and JG before 16 June that she was moving out

TL telling her that Caylee could not stay at his apartment

The evidence that KC did not pack anything for Caylee when she left the house on June 16

The records referencing KC planning to get a place to stay by herself.

TIA

According to Tony Casey was on the phone with him all of the night of June 15 and into the early morning hours of June 16.

Tony said he told Casey that CAsey could stay with him but that Caylee couldn't. Casey was texting Jesse G. that night too.

Casey told Jesse either then or during the 2:52 p.m. phone call that she was leaving the Anthony home on June 16.

According to Tony's, Cindy's and Lee's statements NOTHING was packed for Caylee.

Tony's roommates and Tony say Casey DID bring her stuff over and move in June 16.

 

[ibyoungr]

Ugh, that's just chilling, isn't it? I shudder to think...

But didn't Jesse G. say she told [Caylee] to get off the table? To me, it seems odd that a near-three year old would be on the table. It makes more sense that it'd be one of the Yorkies. I know my chihuaua Poppy loves to jump up on the table. My high-spirited toddler doesn't.

Of course, if it WAS Caylee and KC felt like she was being run ragged that day, maybe that's when a switched was flipped. I believe it was premeditated, but I'm not convinced she got up any given morning and said "Today's the day."

Although, the fight with CA might have forced her hand finally.

My son (who is now 19) was a climber the other 2 were not. I would barely walk out of the room and at 20-24 months find him on the table, counters.. how he did it was always amazing to me. He still is a climber.

Above bolded by me.. ITA!!

 

[ibyoungr]

According to Tony Casey was on the phone with him all of the night of June 15 and into the early morning hours of June 16.

Tony said he told Casey that CAsey could stay with him but that Caylee couldn't. Casey was texting Jesse G. that night too.

Casey told Jesse either then or during the 2:52 p.m. phone call that she was leaving the Anthony home on June 16.

According to Tony's, Cindy's and Lee's statements NOTHING was packed for Caylee.

Tony's roommates and Tony say Casey DID bring her stuff over and move in June 16.

I second that.. Why pack clothes for your dead baby? She had to hurry up and meet Tony. :furious: She was also developing why she did not pack clothes in this lie to her mother on the 21st of June. Another cover story....

Also, per Cindy regarding June 21(Cynthia Anthony INTERVIEW 08/01/2008 VIDEO): LE: Didn't you tell me you asked her about baby clothes and she told you she bought all new clothes? CINDY: Yes for Caylee. LE: Right. CINDY: No, no, no, I said Zanny keeps clothes. She said there's always clothes for Caylee at the babysitters but then she said on the weekend that they did shopping and Zanny took her shopping and bought more clothes. LE: Because that was one of the things you were worried about because you asked her.. why don't you take her clothes and she said we don't need the clothes because we bought her all new clothes because I remember you told me that that night. CINDY: Right, on the 21st [06/21/08 Saturday] they bought clothes but she told me because I started asking her about Caylee's clothes here and she said "Mom, Zanny always has extra outfits and clothes, shoes and things at her house."

 

[MomofBoys]

1. no babysitter tonite(June 16th)
2. no free money from mom
3. no place to live
4. can't be with Tony with Caylee
5. AH would find out soon she stole the money
6. Got to keep Chris, RM, Tony, Tony and every other Tom, Dick and Harry on the line.
7. What to do with AH and moving in together? How was she going to wrap up that lie.

Wow, when you put them all together, it sure looks overwhelming.

What I don't get is that she had just come into all of AH's money. She took a couple hundred in CASH from BoA. Why wouldn't she have gotten on Craigslist and found herself a sitter for that night, and then ran?

Yes, she wouldn't be able to be with Tony, but I've never gotten the vibe that he was the trigger for all this. Their communications weren't very Romeo and Juliet. I never sensed desperation.

Running off to find a job as an escort, changing her appearance, escaping the reprecussions of the thefts...that potentially could have seemed very exciting and romanticized.

She could have faked her OWN abduction. Staged her own disappearance. She wouldn't have a murder charge hanging over her head.

It leaves, to me, one of two scenarios.

She was desperately in love with Tony and he was pretty much the sole motivation for everything

or

This was more about punishing CA and getting back at her for custody threats, etc.

Either way, she still had to know that she'd get busted for grand theft. Lies were crashing down. Killing Caylee doesn't solve that problem. Why didn't she run?

This case is eating my soul.

 

[JWG]

If the pesticide is related to the chloroform, it makes more sense to me they would have taken it after the chloroform was found in the car, not months later.
You think it was suffocation. What do you have to back this up, because there are pillows in the house? Chloroform theorists have ACTUAL, UNUSUALLY LARGE CONCENTRATIONS OF CHLOROFORM found in the trunk. The internet search for it is just an added bonus. The chloroform may not be right, but yes, ma'am, it is indeed a plausible theory.
Lanie

I reread the forensic report on the trunk odor analysis during lunch and will post what I found on it later tonight, but I am now convinced the pesticide was seized during the search in order to attempt to eliminate it as a source for the chloroform and some of the other compounds found in the trunk consistent with human decomposition.

I believe they also seized certain cleaning supplies for the same reason.

They clearly seized vacuum cleaners and a steam cleaner as well. All tied to trunk cleaning.

Interesting stuff. I wonder - why weren't these things seized earlier in the case? I wondered about this way back on an earlier post. What took LE so long?

 

[ibyoungr]

Wow, when you put them all together, it sure looks overwhelming.

What I don't get is that she had just come into all of AH's money. She took a couple hundred in CASH from BoA. Why wouldn't she have gotten on Craigslist and found herself a sitter for that night, and then ran?

Yes, she wouldn't be able to be with Tony, but I've never gotten the vibe that he was the trigger for all this. Their communications weren't very Romeo and Juliet. I never sensed desperation.

Running off to find a job as an escort, changing her appearance, escaping the reprecussions of the thefts...that potentially could have seemed very exciting and romanticized.

She could have faked her OWN abduction. Staged her own disappearance. She wouldn't have a murder charge hanging over her head.

It leaves, to me, one of two scenarios.

She was desperately in love with Tony and he was pretty much the sole motivation for everything

or

This was more about punishing CA and getting back at her for custody threats, etc.

Either way, she still had to know that she'd get busted for grand theft. Lies were crashing down. Killing Caylee doesn't solve that problem. Why didn't she run?
This case is eating my soul.

The other motivation was: "I just do not want to be parent for 18 years and I will be damned if mom will get her and rub my mistake in my face forever.."

She manifested her own destiny... She did state to Lee (paraphrasing here)... "Maybe this should have all stopped along time ago."

Prison will take care of her and feed her for life.. she will adapt as she always has.

 

[ibyoungr]

I reread the forensic report on the trunk odor analysis during lunch and will post what I found on it later tonight, but I am now convinced the pesticide was seized during the search in order to attempt to eliminate it as a source for the chloroform and some of the other compounds found in the trunk consistent with human decomposition.

I believe they also seized certain cleaning supplies for the same reason.

They clearly seized vacuum cleaners and a steam cleaner as well. All tied to trunk cleaning.

Interesting stuff. I wonder - why weren't these things seized earlier in the case? I wondered about this way back on an earlier post. What took LE so long?

ITA... Maybe they did not think the house was the crime scene? I await your analysis!!

 

[MomofBoys]

True.

If she really is a narcissitic sociopath, then the disposal of Caylee probably didn't resonate with her much more than the disposal of a Starbucks cup into the trash. It was all about how she'd look. She had to have her freedom and look good doing it. The grieving mother whose baby was stolen. All the drama of a Lifetime movie.

Her biggest mistake/miscalculation was having to dump the body so close to home. It makes a Zanny Murdered Her defense look sort of implausible.

You know, if the rest of it wasn't so implausible.