Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #189

[grannygates]

I don't think they crossed the creek. Probably not even the bridge to the end.

IMO MOO

I agree with this. If the creek was chest deep and this lone person was also the “muddy/bloody man”, would he not also be completely drenched up to their chest, jeans soaking wet and clinging to him, while walking down the road? MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

Gray Hughes has a video where he walks from the first side of the bridge down to near the crime scene on a game trail, so there is a much easier way to walk to or near the crime scene without having to cross the high bridge or walk through the creek.

I'm not too keen on Gray Hughes or any of them when I come to think about it. (YouTube Crime Talkers).

How long ago did he video record it because I would like to see the bridge and the crime scene place - even if not him exactly.

Does he walk across the bridge - if so, how long did it take him?

Also, would it be easy enough at gunpoint to make two people walk back across it being an old and more than likely unstable bridge.

Am I wrong in thinking it wasn't stable.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The issue for a lot of double child abduction/murders when comparing with Delphi is that in some of these known cases we know where the abduction occurred but we don't know what happened between the abduction and the separate site where the bodies were recovered IF they ever were, so it's hard to put the timeline together or know if the scene was staged. But, the double abduction/murder of Laura Hobbs and Krystal Tobias is similar to Delphi, to me:

1. Two young victims (8 and 9 years old)
2. Playing outside unattended in wooded/public park area
3. Did not come home for dinner and alert is raised, found the next morning at 6am
4. These victims were found just off a bike path, face up, fully clothed, but dead from a total of 31 stab wounds.
5. Initial reports (persisting for 3 years) stated there was no sign of sexual assault...later, it was found that sexual assault actually had occurred to at least one victim.
6. Had to be a fairly quick timeline just based on location and when people started looking for them, yet there were a number of odd, elaborate offender behaviors such as mutilation of the eyes that the perpetrator was careful to do.

Though the murderer was familiar with an older (if memory serves, it might have been a step) sibling of one of the children, they were apparently chosen as victims at random by virtue of just being in the park and unattended at that particular time. Also the murderer was only 16 when this crime was committed. Later he went on to rape and kill other people. He sometimes targeted single victims and other times double victims after this. I look at this case not to find connections to Delphi (as in, they are not the same offender obviously) but to see general patterns of offender behavior.

The Hobbs-Tobias case is very disturbing. Suspicion immediately centered on the father as the killer, and after 24 hours of interrogation, Hobbs confessed to the murders. He spent five years in jail awaiting trial while the real killer, former Marine Jorge Avila-Torrez, was attacking and killing others.

Ex-Marine pleads guilty to 2005 murders of girls, ages 8 and 9, in Illinois

Nine-year-old Krystal Tobias and 8-year-old Laura Hobbs were murdered in 2005, and the plea Tuesday brought an end to a tortuous story of loss that gained national attention, both for the innocence of the victims and the mistakes of the justice system.

abc7ny.com

 

[TTF14]

I'm not too keen on Gray Hughes or any of them when I come to think about it. (YouTube Crime Talkers).

How long ago did he video record it because I would like to see the bridge and the crime scene place - even if not him exactly.

Does he walk across the bridge - if so, how long did it take him?

Also, would it be easy enough at gunpoint to make two people walk back across it being an old and more than likely unstable bridge.

Am I wrong in thinking it wasn't stable.

No, you're not wrong. There were rotting planks and huge gaps between planks. Very unsafe.

There are a lot of videos of the area out there on YouTube. I'll see if I can find one for you.

IMO MOO

 

[grannygates]

I'm not too keen on Gray Hughes or any of them when I come to think about it. (YouTube Crime Talkers).

How long ago did he video record it because I would like to see the bridge and the crime scene place - even if not him exactly.

Does he walk across the bridge - if so, how long did it take him?

Also, would it be easy enough at gunpoint to make two people walk back across it being an old and more than likely unstable bridge.

Am I wrong in thinking it wasn't stable.

I’m not a fan of Gray Hughes at all, I think he is unbearably rude and condescending, so I mute the video and just watch the walk. This is his video showing the walk from the near end of the bridge to near the crime scene. (The sticks and twigs on the forest floor would be covered by the thick layer of leaves, so i disagree with the commentary of this video, I’m just showing the walk MOO)

 

[grannygates]

Yes, they have DNA, fingerprints and plenty of other evidence on ra. He gone moo

Who does? Or is this a guess? I’m wondering why the two main investigators (ligget and Holeman) would be unaware of said DNA or fingerprints ?

 

[MiniMoo]

I’m not a fan of Gray Hughes at all, I think he is unbearably rude and condescending, so I mute the video and just watch the walk. This is his video showing the walk from the near end of the bridge to near the crime scene. (The sticks and twigs on the forest floor would be covered by the thick layer of leaves, so i disagree with the commentary of this video, I’m just showing the walk MOO)

After the second rune chart I went back to listen to what he had to say as I wanted to know why they were being shown.

I really should have just kept it on mute.

He mocks, judges, is condescending and sarcastic.

However, from what he filmed that trail is easy enough to walk until you get to the ravine part of it as just before it it's a bit of a steep slope and then what looks like no real paths or trails once through it.

If the crime scene is where he pointed out I'm not sure why they weren't found sooner unless those branches and what have you covered them enough to conceal them if standing directly above them at a distance - maybe even at the same level.

I wonder if they took photos at different levels and distances.

 

[MiniMoo]

No, you're not wrong. There were rotting planks and huge gaps between planks. Very unsafe.

There are a lot of videos of the area out there on YouTube. I'll see if I can find one for you.

IMO MOO

She filmed that right back as well.

So, wide gaps and lots of rotten planks and it wasn't until she was near the end that she thought it safe to really speed up and walk it.

Thanks for that!

 

[MiniMoo]

A. I think both girls were targeted by being there and being female.

B. I think RA was a regular at the trails as he lived close by. IMO he felt comfortable and confident on the trails and bridge. No need to connect via social media. I think the motive was sexual and sadistic. The violence and terror in this crime is up there with the worst IMO. Whoever committed this crime wasn’t worried about taking risks to achieve his fantasy and came prepared to inflict a lot of pain and horror on his victim(s).
I hope they have the right guy locked up and can prove this at trial.
MOO

A female definitely would have been a factor.

I think he was quick about it, but doing it during daylight hours and with two victims at the same time is quite brazen, also, leaving them staged or posed differently like they were is interesting as well.

This is one court case that should be live streamed.

I really hope if reporters or journalists are let in that they cover it thoroughly and don't let anything slip by.

 

[susane7]

If the crime scene is where he pointed out I'm not sure why they weren't found sooner unless those branches and what have you covered them enough to conceal them if standing directly above them at a distance - maybe even at the same level.

Because they weren't looking in that place. They saw the pic of Abby in the bridge, realized the girls had crossed the bridge and they were looking for them in the south side of the bridge (->). They were looking for alive girls and thought the girls had crossed the bridge and they were injured somehow. They had no idea the girls had crossed the creek. The place the girls are found it is a "slope", so it was difficult or impossible to see them if they are looking for them in the south side of the bridge. Especially at night.

 

[sunshineray]

Why do you feel Libby was expected to be there first?

Is it because of the online chat.

So, you believe BG could have been making a snuff movie or carrying out a fantasy - maybe both.

How did you form the idea of a snuff movie?

Yes because of the catfishing. The atmosphere that was revealed by KAK, the biggest CSAM investigation in Indiana history. It's why the Peru search was downplayed and why KAK was left out in the community. Unfortunately, all that together makes me wonder, if the girls (via Libby being catfished) were lured there, if it was a set up, recording it is not too much of a stretch, IMO

 

[TTF14]

Thank you to the moderator who granted me permission to share this James Renner interview with Kelsi German. <modsnip>

... in response to someone's comment or question about if anyone there at the trails had seen the girls, besides BB who saw two girls resembling Abby and Libby.

There HAD to be people who saw the girls there that day. Kelsi German told James Renner she saw 10-20 kids her age there when she dropped the girls off in that tiny little parking area. This is a small town with one public high school. You'd think out of the 10-20 kids she saw, at least some of them would have recognized her (if they saw her in the driver's seat, and they probably did since she said they had the windows down and may have even recognized her car....I knew all the cars my friends/classmates drove in high school), and some of them would probably even recognize Libby as her younger sister. I'm so curious what these 10-20 kids have told LE about what they saw that day. Did they see Abby and Libby? Did they see RA? How about BB?

This interview was filmed with a 360 view camera, so you have to drag your finger or your mouse over the screen to turn it around to be able to see James and Kelsi. This is part 1 of a 2-part interview he did with her at the yogurt shop. James has several interviews with family members and they are all good, but I've only permission to share this one .

 

[grannygates]

Because they weren't looking in that place. They saw the pic of Abby in the bridge, realized the girls had crossed the bridge and they were looking for them in the south side of the bridge (->). They were looking for alive girls and thought the girls had crossed the bridge and they were injured somehow. They had no idea the girls had crossed the creek. The place the girls are found it is a "slope", so it was difficult or impossible to see them if they are looking for them in the south side of the bridge. Especially at night.

IMO Sgt Reilly said in a tv interview that there was significant contamination at the crime scene due to searchers, one being that a searcher urinated within 15-30ft (I can’t recall which one) of the crime scene, I believe cigarette butts found on the ground and near the creek edge and it’s alleged that searchers have also stated they walked right through that area during their search.all MOO

 

[susane7]

IMO Sgt Reilly said in a tv interview that there was significant contamination at the crime scene due to searchers, one being that a searcher urinated within 15-30ft (I can’t recall which one) of the crime scene, I believe cigarette butts found on the ground and near the creek edge and it’s alleged that searchers have also stated they walked right through that area during their search.all MOO

The crime scene it was contaminated. People crossed the bridge, are looking for the girls in the south side of the creek when the "down the hill" allegedly happened. All of that is the crime scene.

 

[grannygates]

What I am hearing all moo

Our options are either:

1) Holeman and Ligget told the truth under oath during their depositions and there is no DNA, fingerprints or digital or electronic data connecting RA to the crime scene or the victims

2) Holeman and Ligget both committed perjury and lied under oath and there actually is DNA or fingerprint evidence (etc.) that law enforcement is intentionally withholding from the defense during discovery.

Unless I’m missing a third option?

MOO

 

[grannygates]

The crime scene it was contaminated. People crossed the bridge, are looking for the girls in the south side of the creek when the "down the hill" allegedly happened. All of that is the crime scene.

In this interview, he was specifically referring to the direct area where the girls were found as the “crime scene” as they were discussing the potential of collecting evidence found in that specific location.

 

[susane7]

Thank you to the moderator who granted me permission to share this James Renner interview with Kelsi German. I attempted to post it last week, but my post was deleted. Lots of hard work going on here! I originally posted it in response to someone's comment or question about if anyone there at the trails had seen the girls, besides BB who saw two girls resembling Abby and Libby.

My response went something like this: There HAD to be people who saw the girls there that day. Kelsi German told James Renner she saw 10-20 kids her age there when she dropped the girls off in that tiny little parking area. This is a small town with one public high school. You'd think out of the 10-20 kids she saw, at least some of them would have recognized her (if they saw her in the driver's seat, and they probably did since she said they had the windows down and may have even recognized her car....I knew all the cars my friends/classmates drove in high school), and some of them would probably even recognize Libby as her younger sister. I'm so curious what these 10-20 kids have told LE about what they saw that day. Did they see Abby and Libby? Did they see RA? How about BB?

This interview was filmed with a 360 view camera, so you have to drag your finger or your mouse over the screen to turn it around to be able to see James and Kelsi. This is part 1 of a 2-part interview he did with her at the yogurt shop. James has several interviews with family members and they are all good, but I've only permission to share this one .

She said that from my memory she later denied. She told it was 10-20 kids during the entire day, not in that time. I don't remember if it was with Gray Hughes when she explained that. If someone remembers help me.

Ps - I will try to watch a interview with Kelsi on Gray later or this week and see if I can find Kelsi's explanation about the 10-20 kids. I think she explained that but I'm not sure.

 

[TTF14]

She said that from my memory she later denied. She told it was 10-20 kids during the entire day, not in that time. I don't remember if it was with Gray Hughes when she explained that. If someone remembers help me.

Confusing because she said she saw them. "I only saw kids my age there." Did she see the kids her age during drop off like she said in the James Renner interview? Or at some other point during the day?

IMO MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Thank you to the moderator who granted me permission to share this James Renner interview with Kelsi German. I attempted to post it last week, but my post was deleted. Lots of hard work going on here! I originally posted it in response to someone's comment or question about if anyone there at the trails had seen the girls, besides BB who saw two girls resembling Abby and Libby.

My response went something like this: There HAD to be people who saw the girls there that day. Kelsi German told James Renner she saw 10-20 kids her age there when she dropped the girls off in that tiny little parking area. This is a small town with one public high school. You'd think out of the 10-20 kids she saw, at least some of them would have recognized her (if they saw her in the driver's seat, and they probably did since she said they had the windows down and may have even recognized her car....I knew all the cars my friends/classmates drove in high school), and some of them would probably even recognize Libby as her younger sister. I'm so curious what these 10-20 kids have told LE about what they saw that day. Did they see Abby and Libby? Did they see RA? How about BB?

This interview was filmed with a 360 view camera, so you have to drag your finger or your mouse over the screen to turn it around to be able to see James and Kelsi. This is part 1 of a 2-part interview he did with her at the yogurt shop. James has several interviews with family members and they are all good, but I've only permission to share this one .

I saw this interview years ago.

I guess that I wish there was more context from Kelsi.

Kelsi never got out of the car. Were the ten kids in the parking lot? Were they leaving at the time? Did she see them as she was driving away from the scene? Were they on one of the trails or up at Freedom Bridge? Could she have assumed that they were teenagers because it's a place that kids go to hang out when there is no school?

As for what and who they saw, I guess we wait for trial.

Maybe Kelsi saw the 4 teens, DP arriving and waiting for his friend to show up, BB, and perhaps C and C were over near freedom bridge?

It will be interesting to find out.

But, since we are talking about it, how do you think this impacts the case?

Ebm to add that if she said " through out the day ' then it's most likely that this would include the time that she came back to help search.

It makes the most sense to me, IMO.

 

[susane7]

In this interview, he was specifically referring to the direct area where the girls were found as the “crime scene” as they were discussing the potential of collecting evidence found in that specific location.

When people found the girls next morning, if they were found by searchers it probably happened some contamination in the crime scene. I doubt Sr. Riley said the bodies weren't there at night. Or he will be a huge witness for the defense..