Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

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My last post tonight as it’s 11.50pm and i am tired.

There is evidence he committed the crime so a massive big difference. RA can be placed at the crime scene so of course what he claims holds more water.

IMO
Well, if I were a juror, I'd need a good amount of evidence that he wasn't just on the bridge and that he actually did the crime he is accused of. Simply being there doesn't make the dude a killer imo. I'm sure he's guilty of something, but man, I want that evidence to be airtight and to lock him up for good!
 
Murphy said he finally realized EF was (parapgrasing) playing him, conning him, making stuff up.
He did? Ok so Murphy felt EF was not credible - but how did he verify that? Especially in light of different info from others who were there (pls can the powers that be provide us some sort of chart so we can keep track of who said what to whom / when etc?). My brain hurts. !! MOO.
 
Was it not claimed he suffered with Depression for half his life?

So LE can not be blamed for his poor mental health. He had it way it before he brutally murdered two innocent children on an afternoon walk and LE came knocking.

IMO

IMO Is it surprising a mental health report from an independent psychologist wasn’t ordered by the D. But then it might include a full background history.

“Prosecutors said Allen's shift toward bizarre behavior happened after a meeting with his lawyers. Dr. Monica Wala noted in past reports her concerns that Allen was faking his symptoms.”

I’m also curious what was going on in his life immediately prior to the Delphi murders. IMO the missing link is something that might’ve set him off him into a vicious, raging episode. Personal issues (ie threats from somebody, blackmail?), work issues (ie drug theft?), marital issues (ie infidelity?), alcohol or drug addiction, financial issues (ie bankruptcy?) to name a few are all situations everyday people get faced with from time to time. So what was going on in RA’s life early Feb, 2017? The silence is deafening.

JMO
 
Random thoughts incoming. There's stuff we know (which is probably pretty little), then there's stuff we don't know (which is a lot), and then there's stuff we don't even know we don't know (which also, is likely, a good bit of stuff) :)

That road, W 300 N, the one that goes out to the Monon High Bridge....that road simply isn't traveled a whole lot, even on a busy day. It ain't like driving in London, or out around the Baltimore beltway.

Think maybe the killer here had to drive out of there? I wonder if he went downtown Delphi, you know, grab something to eat? Or maybe just went home. Think maybe there's a couple of ring cams on the way? Or, maybe a gas station, or courthouse, or convenience store might have a cam?

Delphi isn't a big town, I didn't spend a bunch of time looking, but it appears to be a one light town, one traffic light, right downtown...well, maybe there's more, at an intersection or two. There's not a whole lot going on in Delphi, and certainly not a whole bunch of traffic on any given day.

And all those searches early on? If y'all were on board early on, there were several places searched. Maybe we could focus on all those searches for a spell....uh, nevermind. They were all dead ends, and not conducive to current discourse.

Then there's that nagging question I've seen raised recently. Could vehicles have arrived from the other direction, thereby avoiding the Harvest Store cam? Well, this was discussed ad nauseum back in the day, arrival by boat up the river, departure by boat, departure out Bridge Creek by 4 wheeler, hitchin' a ride on Rt. 25, escape via the railroad all the way to W 200 N.

How about those boots? You know the ones, over there at the Packing Plant....yep, there was grand discourse relative to that packing plant, oh how it went on, and on, and on. Imagine, a meat packing plant, blood, boots, and knives. Wheweee!

The killer, Bridge Guy, was he wearing a hat, or no hat, color of his hair, a puppy in his pocket, what's that around his neck, is there a bat, or club down his pants leg, a gun in his pocket, a plastic baggie around his neck, a leather pouch to carry his kill kit?

And then, all the discussion revolving around that cemetery, could it have been where he parked (can't see the back from the road), the old quarry there, did he escape that way, why did nobody see him parked there, on and on and on.

And the hunting tree stand....how it would have provided him a view of the girls arrival, how he could have stalked them from there, waiting to make his move.

There was even great discussion about 'down the hill', what hill, was it this one, at the end of the bridge, or that one, on down a ways, or was it the next one, that hill from the old driveway down?

And, the voices under the bridge, and red flannel guy, and the folks who live at the end of the driveway, and why were they on vacation, and was there a car waiting for them there, and were they whisked away, and, and the cabin, and the reference to the Shack, and can you hear screams on the bridge all the way from the murder scene, or would you hear gunfire from that far away, and just how far was it from the end of the bridge, and exactly where did they cross the creek, and was it up this way further, or down around that bend, and how deep was the water?

Then the discussion of why the canines weren't brought in right away, and the calling off of the search that first night, and how the locals searched, and who spotted the girls first, and what did that person say or do, and had the murder scene been compromised?

And don't forget the entire discourse relative to the bridge itself, the preservation of it, those involved in that, whether there was something nefarious going on there, was that somehow tied in?

And the university, don't forget the discussion of the university, and did that tie in somehow?

And the billboards, the national hunt, the thinking the killer might be transient, homeless, a trucker, from anywhere in the country, a traveling serial killer, and the talk of ties to another state, or two, and the discussion of the fire that killed several in a town nearby, and whether that was related, and was it a politician, or someone that works in the courts, or a person of power and prestige trying to cover up some dastardly deed of the past.

And, on, and on, and on, I could go. For real.....and to think, there is so much we simply do not know.

Abby and Libby. Truth will be revealed. I believe it to be near.
 
Yes you’re right! The thing is most other cases don’t take a deep dive into several other parties who were investigated, the focus remains who was charged.

Maybe it’s the difference between mental illness (a medical condition that doesn’t come and go without treatment) or an episode (re -RA although there is questions if he was faking it). I suppose her mental history which we don’t know might’ve been considered. Severity is also a factor. MOO
This is one of my worries though - they investigate a specific person and become satisfied that it HAD to be that person right? And then they stop looking at anyone else it COULD have been. Not even in terms of accomplices. Just stop looking for anything or anyone else. EG: kinda like what happened in Canada to Guy Paul Morin who was accused of a vicious murder of Christine Jessop in the 80's. Despite other possible options, the police zero'd in on him and kinda went out of their way to get him to make incriminating statements etc (jailhouse informant undercover placed in his cell or something)... He was convicted. Spent years in prison. BUT... he did not do it! Finally DNA showed it wasn't him. Imagine That? His alibi was that he was at home. Alone. When his neighbor vanished. His own mother confirmed his alibi and still... he rotted in prison for years!! It is a disgrace! And when we ask if LE are corrupt or working with tunnel vision to convict someone, while it does not happen in every case, the danger is always present that it COULD be happening. I want to avoid this as being a thing in this case or any other case. So to me, I want the State to show the jurors how even if Odins are never mentioned, how it HAD to be RA and couldn't reasonably have been any of the others they've investigated to date... Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - The Alibi
 
If I was on a jury and I was told that an officer handwrote a note saying that the man was on the trails from 1:30-3:00 but this LE made errors elsewhere in this note and then had the accused say that he left at 1:30 and there’s video of a similar car driving in the direction of his house at 1:27pm, I would absolutely need more evidence than that to prove what time he was actually on the trails. Like his cell phone data that we never hear about !

MOO
I have taken quite a bit of time off Websleuths so am not as up to date or as sharp as I once was, lol.

But I don't think the prosecution has needed to release cell phone data yet? None of the hearings have been about the prosecutions's overall evidence...only what they need to release to disupute the Odinism theory of the defense...i.e the blood splatter expert to dispute an "F" on a tree.

There is also the group of girls that saw him ...and most importantly that HE admitted seeing.... on the trail right before the murder time frame.

He also placed himself on the bridge in BG clothes....almost nobody goes on the bridge, it's terrifying, so that would be a crazy coincidence.

His bullet is found next to the girls, another outrageous coincidence.

He looks and sounds like the BG, who we know is "seen and heard" directing the girls down the hill.

He has confessed over 60 times, including almost immediately after his arrest before his mental episode and to his closest relatives. This is actually crazy, I am amazed it is going to trial. I think RA does have that bit of conscience left...he went to the conservation officer and he is confessing all over the place. It feels to me like he wants to be found guilty, but between the misfiling or whatever, his family, and his lawyers, somehow he keeps getting a reason to keep going!
 
I have taken quite a bit of time off Websleuths so am not as up to date or as sharp as I once was, lol.

But I don't think the prosecution has needed to release cell phone data yet? None of the hearings have been about the prosecutions's overall evidence...only what they need to release to disupute the Odinism theory of the defense...i.e the blood splatter expert to dispute an "F" on a tree.

There is also the group of girls that saw him ...and most importantly that HE admitted seeing.... on the trail right before the murder time frame.

He also placed himself on the bridge in BG clothes....almost nobody goes on the bridge, it's terrifying, so that would be a crazy coincidence.

His bullet is found next to the girls, another outrageous coincidence.

He looks and sounds like the BG, who we know is "seen and heard" directing the girls down the hill.

He has confessed over 60 times, including almost immediately after his arrest before his mental episode and to his closest relatives. This is actually crazy, I am amazed it is going to trial. I think RA does have that bit of conscience left...he went to the conservation officer and he is confessing all over the place. It feels to me like he wants to be found guilty, but between the misfiling or whatever, his family, and his lawyers, somehow he keeps getting a reason to keep going!
Welcome back.
 
This is one of my worries though - they investigate a specific person and become satisfied that it HAD to be that person right? And then they stop looking at anyone else it COULD have been. Not even in terms of accomplices. Just stop looking for anything or anyone else. EG: kinda like what happened in Canada to Guy Paul Morin who was accused of a vicious murder of Christine Jessop in the 80's. Despite other possible options, the police zero'd in on him and kinda went out of their way to get him to make incriminating statements etc (jailhouse informant undercover placed in his cell or something)... He was convicted. Spent years in prison. BUT... he did not do it! Finally DNA showed it wasn't him. Imagine That? His alibi was that he was at home. Alone. When his neighbor vanished. His own mother confirmed his alibi and still... he rotted in prison for years!! It is a disgrace! And when we ask if LE are corrupt or working with tunnel vision to convict someone, while it does not happen in every case, the danger is always present that it COULD be happening. I want to avoid this as being a thing in this case or any other case. So to me, I want the State to show the jurors how even if Odins are never mentioned, how it HAD to be RA and couldn't reasonably have been any of the others they've investigated to date... Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - The Alibi
^BBM
Far from the truth. Were you aware of all of the others investigated over the course of five years? DM lists SIX that were well-known in MSM. There were others not brought to MSM.

 
He did put himself there on the bridge that day (true) and he was apparently seen by others which is fine, however, the only thing that can't be overlooked really is that unspent bullet.

Having said that - it still needs to be proven beyond a doubt that he is the murderer.


No. It doesn't.
It only has to be proven that he led the girls off the bridge and to their death.
 
The people with Nordic views that the FBI immediately investigated due to their connections to the victims

How many of them had 'connections' to the victims? LG appeared to be the target--how many of th Odinists had any prior connection to her? I know only about A having a crush on th son of Holder. But both the son and his father had an alibi and neither were ever shown to be in Delphi at the key time.

How were the others 'connected' to th victims?
and the signatures at the crime scene,
The signatures seem kind of 'IFFY' imo. Much of them have ben debunked. No rune painted in blood, no 'horns' on the head, just random branches strewn around the crime scene. No evidence of any groups of males being at the scene.
which includes a man who confessed to the crimes with intimate details before the girls were even found. MOO
The man has the mental capacity of a 7 yr old, the details were questionable, and no DNA of his was ever found, nor any evidence he was even in Delphi at the time. IMO
 
Well, if I were a juror, I'd need a good amount of evidence that he wasn't just on the bridge and that he actually did the crime he is accused of. Simply being there doesn't make the dude a killer imo. I'm sure he's guilty of something, but man, I want that evidence to be airtight and to lock him up for good!

Yes ideally that’s how it should go. This the exactly the issue with delense’s SODDI, there is no airtight evidence proving someone else is responsible for the murders. So if that’s their best shot and they want to risk it, by virtue of elimination is that to say RA must be guilty?

Just my speculation.
 
I don't understand why the Judge would tell the defense they are not allowed to present a "some other dude did it" defense. The defense should be able to present the defense they deem best, and allow the jury to evaluate the merits of it. Isn't that the way the criminal justice system works in the US? If the judge and prosecution start telling the defense what they can and can not argue, then "we have a problem, Houston", IMO.
In order to present a SODDI case there has to be evidence that the suspect could have done the crime. If there is an alibi and the suspect had no opportunity to commit the crime then they cannot be put forward in the trial. Common sense, IMO.

If Holder was absent from work that day and his phone had traveled to Delphi he would be able to be put forward as a SODDI option. IMO
 
Yes ideally that’s how it should go. This the exactly the issue with delense’s SODDI, there is no airtight evidence proving someone else is responsible for the murders. So if that’s their best shot and they want to risk it, by virtue of elimination is that to say RA must be guilty? Just my speculation.


@ClearAhead - I am not saying that this is what you think, just adding to your discussion.

Why can't Allen be guilty if there are other John Does who may have played a part?

Happens alot.

3 people in a car target a victim and one shooter kills or injures them. Shooter gets caught from ballistics and gun ownership.

Shooter is tried and convicted while LE is still searching and trying to bring to justice the 2 other people in the car.

The possibility of other perpetrators does not erase Allen's culpability - evidence against him.

2 Cents
 
We need actual proof of that because he says he left at 1:30. This is why interviews should always be recorded. You can’t prove he said anything with a handwritten note.
Does it not matter that RA changed his time story?

It seems strange to me that a self-declared innocent man would need to change anything he had previously told LE, right after the murders...and doing it six years later too, that's very odd.

Do you think maybe it was his lawyers that told him he needed to change his reported arrival time at the trails to his departure time? Or did he think of that himself?

And if he agknowledged seeing the group of girls when he did, as he was walking towards the Monon High Bridge, was he mistaken about that too? Was he really walking in the same direction they were, leaving?

If it turns out his phone doesn't show up on the tower data, was he just mistaken about walking and watching his stock ticker and need to change that info?

Just some thoughts
 
This is one of my worries though - they investigate a specific person and become satisfied that it HAD to be that person right? And then they stop looking at anyone else it COULD have been. Not even in terms of accomplices. Just stop looking for anything or anyone else. EG: kinda like what happened in Canada to Guy Paul Morin who was accused of a vicious murder of Christine Jessop in the 80's. Despite other possible options, the police zero'd in on him and kinda went out of their way to get him to make incriminating statements etc (jailhouse informant undercover placed in his cell or something)... He was convicted. Spent years in prison. BUT... he did not do it! Finally DNA showed it wasn't him. Imagine That? His alibi was that he was at home. Alone. When his neighbor vanished. His own mother confirmed his alibi and still... he rotted in prison for years!! It is a disgrace! And when we ask if LE are corrupt or working with tunnel vision to convict someone, while it does not happen in every case, the danger is always present that it COULD be happening. I want to avoid this as being a thing in this case or any other case. So to me, I want the State to show the jurors how even if Odins are never mentioned, how it HAD to be RA and couldn't reasonably have been any of the others they've investigated to date... Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - The Alibi

Nothing about this case resembles tunnel vision IMO which often involves questioning witnesses or manipulating evidence in such a way to point directly toward the accused.

The statements from the witnesses in this case and crime scene evidence was all in hand long before RA was arrested and charged.

LE had said long before RA’s arrest the only missing piece of the puzzle remaining in this case was learning the identity of the killer. That suggests all the other details of the crime including the timeline were known.

MOO
 
This is one of my worries though - they investigate a specific person and become satisfied that it HAD to be that person right? And then they stop looking at anyone else it COULD have been. Not even in terms of accomplices. Just stop looking for anything or anyone else. EG: kinda like what happened in Canada to Guy Paul Morin who was accused of a vicious murder of Christine Jessop in the 80's. Despite other possible options, the police zero'd in on him and kinda went out of their way to get him to make incriminating statements etc (jailhouse informant undercover placed in his cell or something)... He was convicted. Spent years in prison. BUT... he did not do it! Finally DNA showed it wasn't him. Imagine That? His alibi was that he was at home. Alone. When his neighbor vanished. His own mother confirmed his alibi and still... he rotted in prison for years!! It is a disgrace! And when we ask if LE are corrupt or working with tunnel vision to convict someone, while it does not happen in every case, the danger is always present that it COULD be happening. I want to avoid this as being a thing in this case or any other case. So to me, I want the State to show the jurors how even if Odins are never mentioned, how it HAD to be RA and couldn't reasonably have been any of the others they've investigated to date... Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - The Alibi
I’d probably also relate to Karen Read, in the sense that in that case, they did quite a bit of working backwards to try to force the “evidence” to fit the their accused. MOO
 
I'm so perplexed here - so her tip was unfounded due to mental illness right? But then RA's info / confessions whatever we're calling them from prison under some sort of presumed mental health issues (smearing his own crud on himself???) are supposed to be valid? Perhaps the only difference is she didn't put herself there, only her brother. So many things to keep track of in the he / said she said of this crazy case (moooo!)
RBBM
The irony!
 
@ClearAhead - I am not saying that this is what you think, just adding to your discussion.

Why can't Allen be guilty if there are other John Does who may have played a part?

Happens alot.

3 people in a car target a victim and one shooter kills or injures them. Shooter gets caught from ballistics and gun ownership.

Shooter is tried and convicted while LE is still searching and trying to bring to justice the 2 other people in the car.

The possibility of other perpetrators does not erase Allen's culpability - evidence against him.

2 Cents

I can’t disagree with the point you’re making. But the D have not alleged any connection between RA and Odinism, or that there was any joint involvement in the murders of Libby and Abby. The defense theory goes that RA is innocent and the wrong man was charged because the truly guilty weren’t adequately investigated. This has been outlined in various defense motions. MOO
 

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