Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021

[Cryptic]

Privilege

Though commonly cast as attractive villains on say, Law and Order, being wealthy neither males Baldwin directly cuplable nor "privelaged".

I am thinking that actors (whose level of familiarity with weapons varies immensely) are told not to attempt to check the weapons handed to them- a very dangerous act if done badly, but to trust the professional armorer.

Thus, Baldwin, his wealth aside, did just that- he trusted the armorer. Likewise, the fact that armorer is likely far less wealthy than Baldwin does not excuse her from primary responsibility.

In the end, Baldwin's responsibility seems pretty distant. He apparently had a part in funding the movie. As a result, he arguably had a responsibility to inform the other financers that things were going badly on the set regarding weapons and that either the armorer, assistant director, director- or all three should be replaced.

 

[10ofRods]

True. But we do know that safety protocols were not followed when Halyna Hutchins and Joel Suoza were shot by Alec Baldwin.

Was there a pattern of non adherence to safety rules? JMO.

The people who walked off the job that morning said yes - and apparently the dead woman was also quite vocal about it - that will become known if true (at least to LE).

There were some other issues besides live rounds being fired prior (such as the fact that there were live rounds on set at all - a violation of protocol - and today we learn that the live rounds were stored in the same area as the blanks).

People have been killed with blanks, too, though...something needs to change in film making.

And I'll never buy the idea that a protocol that absolves an actor (the one pulling the trigger) from responsibility is a good one. Apparently, in Australia, each person who handles a prop gun (made of plastic) must show up personally, sign paperwork every day, inspect the gun personally (after it's been inspected by the armourer) and then return it when the scene is over. The gun users are required to know how to inspect a gun (in Australia). As usual, common sense in Australia.

 

[RANCH]

For a Western-style single action revolver, like a Colt .45 reproduction, they would check the cylinder and rotate it to verify whether it was empty. However, if the intent was to have a blank inside, then it was also just as important to identify what kind of ammunition was being used.

They use rubber prop guns in the film industry. The actor would know it's a fake gun as soon as they picked it up. Here's a link to a prop company that sells a rubber Colt SAA for $80.

Single Action Revolver with 5 1/2'' Barrel Rubber Gun

 

[10ofRods]

They use rubber prop guns in the film industry. The actor would know it's a fake gun as soon as they picked it up. Here's a link to a prop company that sells a rubber Colt SAA for $80.

Single Action Revolver with 5 1/2'' Barrel Rubber Gun

But that's not "fun." If you want to pretend for a month that you're a real gunslinger, you want a vintage Colt .45...

Clearly, we need laws around this issue, but unless it's federal law (that's not gonna happen soon), it'll have to be state by state and most states want money from film production, so...in the end, the human individuals involved must be held accountable (and the company who hires them...)

 

[RANCH]

"We need some help a director and a camera woman have been shot," a woman told the operator. "I was sitting, we were rehearsing and it went off, and I ran out, we all ran out."

Since they were rehearsing they should have used a rubber non firing gun instead of a gun that could fire live ammunition. JMO.

Alec Baldwin was handed prop weapon by a crew member who yelled 'cold gun,' court document shows - CNN

 

[RANCH]

But that's not "fun." If you want to pretend for a month that you're a real gunslinger, you want a vintage Colt .45...

Clearly, we need laws around this issue, but unless it's federal law (that's not gonna happen soon), it'll have to be state by state and most states want money from film production, so...in the end, the human individuals involved must be held accountable (and the company who hires them...)

IMO if there's a federal law banning the use of blank firing guns film production may move to Canada or other countries.

Canadian film and TV productions account for $5 billion in revenue, employing more than 117,000 people on a full-time basis. Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia alone make up more than 90 percent of total volume production in the country.

Film and television

 

[Warwick1991]

Do you know if you can distinguish whether it's a blank or not by spinning the cylinder and viewing what is loaded?

From what I’ve seen, blanks are made to look different than regular ammunition. The type of ammunition would be apparent by looking at the front of the cylinder. From the rear, blanks and regular ammunition would look very similar.

 

[10ofRods]

Unless it is required for the actor to check the gun he has been handed to use in a movie scene (rehearsal or otherwise), I really don't see AB taking the biggest fall here. El Dorado Productions is not one of the biggest production companies backing this film... BondIt (and sister company) likely provided the largest portion of the funding. Dave Halls (A.D.) should face the greatest penalties in this terribly sad injury and loss of life. jmo

Also, I too can equate this to working in the medical field (as others have). A surgeon doesn't examine each implement before heading into surgery to make sure it's sterile... he "trusts" those having that responsibility. So... in most cases the hospital or surgery center takes the legal/financial brunt of anything that goes wrong. (again jmo)

It is required by the protocols of the Propmaster's Union - so any union production is supposed to follow those protocols. This began as a union production but the Propmasters walked off the very morning of this shooting, because there had been too many safety violations (and now we learn that Dave Halls, the Asst Director also had a history of ignoring safety and didn't hold required safety meetings). Other crew members walked off due to not following COVID protocols either.

I think it's a bit different than a surgeon being handed a non-sterile implement. A scalpel is in use for a medical reason, its known dangers include lack of sterilization - but also, it's very sharp. Guns are lethal because they shoot bullets - and they are immediately lethal in the same way a scalpel is lethal if it is misused (and yes, surgeons have been sued and had their licenses revoked for having no skills with a scalpel - listen to the Dr Death podcast if you haven't).

This is much closer to the misuse of a scalpel as a cutting instrument. Blanks can kill too. They have gunpowder in them and sometimes they fragment and the pieces fly out of the gun just like a real bullet - people have died on set that way. That's why the actor is not supposed to fire the gun EXCEPT DURING THE SCENE and the director is supposed to establish the shot such that a gun is NEVER POINTED AT ANYONE on a movie set. Even with rubber bullets or blanks.

When shooting toward the camera, the crew must not be near the camera (50 feet away) and it's rarely done for that reason (camera is operated remotely). Stock footage is readily available and cheap for that type of shot (done in very controlled settings) so there's no need to do it on set with people around.

This gun was not fired during a scene (they weren't even close to shooting yet, they were about to begin a rehearsal). The gun was pointed directly at someone. Those are things actors must do properly or more people will be hurt - yes, by blanks, especially if the gun is as close to a person as appears in this case.

 

[10ofRods]

From what I’ve seen, blanks are made to look different than regular ammunition. The type of ammunition would be apparent by looking at the front of the cylinder. From the rear, blanks and regular ammunition would look very similar.

Yep - and the armourer is supposed to perform that inspection with the actor watching, then the actor is supposed to do it again.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Alec Baldwin shooting: Assistant director on 'Rust' was subject of complaints dating back to 2019 - CNN

 

[shotgun09]

Did 'someone' insist on having a vintage weapon on set?
If so, was that the same someone who was to be acting with the vintage weapon?
How many vintage weapons, that could actually fire lethal rounds were on this set?

 

[Kiranerys]

The victim was not an A list movie star and owner of the production company.

No,she was just a highly respected and experienced cinematographer who had allegedly raised her own concerns over safety issues on set and had campaigned for better working conditions. She may not be a shiney Hollywood A lister but she most definitely had a voice!

 

[whitelilac]

An armorer has a huge responsibility. You'd have to nearly have an OCD personality for this job. This girl didn't have that trait,
She was inexperienced and careless. The way she handled a gun with the 11 year old in a previous movie, the "waving a gun" around etc.
And here, the fact that live ammo and blanks were stored in the same area with the target shooting going on was a disaster waiting to happen. The storing of the ammo was her responsibility. Those 3 guns on that cart were obviously not examined, at the least, not supervised by this person.

Then the 3 previous incidents that happened...people complained, nothing was done about it.
The blowhard impatient AD who yelled at the script supervisor, didn't check the gun like he was supposed to do. Then AB didn't check the gun.

That green armorer should never have been hired, ..at least replaced after the previous accidents.
She's in the wrong business, just because her dad is a well know armorer doesn't mean she has the traits to follow in his footsteps.

Budget, cutting corners, time constraints, a toxic atmosphere on set, ....
The lot of them, from whomever hired this girl, through to AB firing that gun, have responsibility for this tragedy, in various degrees, but mostly whoever didn't make the decision say "stop", we need to examine the safety protocols after the first 3 incidents. IMO.

 

[Speculaytor]

It sure sounds like someone was having fun off set, shooting this gun recreationally as many articles linked to posts in this thread have said. It was also reported that there was live ammunition stored with the blanks on this set, police found in the search. The question NOW is did someone leave a bullet in and those who were to check the gun did not, or was a real bullet put in the gun by mistake, and was that the armorer?

 

[wary]

I would like to make the point that, so far as I know, there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". The correct term is "negligent discharge". A gun never "accidentally" fires itself. The trigger must be pulled, or in the case of a single action revolver, the hammer must be pulled back and then released. This never happens accidentally, someone needs to do it manually. Guns do not fire themselves.

MOO

From all I’ve heard, a vintage revolver could fire if it were dropped, which indeed would be an accidental discharge. I’m not claiming that this applies to this situation, however.

MOO

 

[Betty P]

Somehow I knew this was coming.............

That woman handling the guns was totally unqualified.

But that's not "fun." If you want to pretend for a month that you're a real gunslinger, you want a vintage Colt .45...

Clearly, we need laws around this issue, but unless it's federal law (that's not gonna happen soon), it'll have to be state by state and most states want money from film production, so...in the end, the human individuals involved must be held accountable (and the company who hires them...)

BBM

I'm not sure it's all the actor or director's need for "fun". In fact, the detailed, time consuming process of using a real weapon and blanks seems a pain in the neck. Not all actors are adrenaline junkies.

JMO, it's more about how directors and execs feel the need to stay on the edge in a highly competitive industry driven by consumers who want more action, more blood, more explosions, etc.

Maybe the violent westerns and action viewing market likes "realism" more than, say, the fans of Superhero and Sci-Fi movies who like CGI. Sounds like it's time for the industry to tell that market segment they'll have to get used to CGI.

JMO

 

[mickey2942]

No doubt, this tragedy will lead to change in the movie industry. Few actors will want to be on the end of civil lawsuits.

 

[RANCH]

No doubt, this tragedy will lead to change in the movie industry. Few actors will want to be on the end of civil lawsuits.

I wonder if insurance companies will look more closely at an armorers experience and qualifications when selling liability coverage to film production companies?

 

[Mo Thuairim]

I wonder if insurance companies will look more closely at an armorers experience and qualifications when selling liability coverage to film production companies?

That would make sense.

According to this article:

Some experts have predicted that the movie's insurers may refuse to pay out if it emerges that safety protocols weren't followed properly, potentially ruining its financial backers.

Alec Baldwin's Rust film 'will NEVER be finished' after shooting leaves cinematographer dead | Daily Mail Online

 

[RANCH]

MOO

From all I’ve heard, a vintage revolver could fire if it were dropped, which indeed would be an accidental discharge. I’m not claiming that this applies to this situation, however.

MOO

This means that a hammer in its resting position was actually resting with the striking pin right on the cartridge. There is no other way of saying it – a little bump on the hammer could cause an unwanted shot. And there were many opportunities for such bumps. Can you imagine a cowboy riding on a horse with the revolver flopping around? An accident was waiting to happen.

This is why up to this day it is recommended to load 5 rounds only and to leave one chamber empty.

Why cowboys only loaded 5 rounds in their 6-chamber revolvers? - Technology Org