Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[marlywings]

Yes, and I am pretty sure that it was listed in the amounts owed in MSM somewhere after the second bail hearing. I will try to find a link.

Ok thanks...we were all posting at once...lol.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

I apologise profusely Marlywings - I can't find a link. Below is the best I could come up with. Please delete my post if this doesn't suffice. I do try to be careful and was sure I had seem it on MSM and thought it was common knowledge on websleuths, but I can't find anything now.

I do apologise to everyone. I will check for a link first and post later in future. (Unless I can say it is insider knowledge Marlywings?)

Among the debts listed were:
• $275,000 owed in "gentlemen's agreements" with three friends.
• $200,000 to to a friend in a contracted agreement due for payment on 30 June, 2012.
• $90,000 to another friend in a contracted agreement due for payment on 30 June, 2012.
• $75,000 to a business associate.
• $15,000 in outstanding franchise fees to Century 21 Australia.
• $45,000 credit card debt.
• $58,000 to his parents. (identified through a financial analysis ordered by police).


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz2MSALlWsl

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

What makes you so sure? Has this been in msm?

No, don't think in MSM. That's just in my opinion. Perhaps I should have worded it; There is a pay phone very close to GBC's old C21 offices, perhaps it would have been very easy for him to use that pay phone to call TM.
Off to hide in shame for a while now - and remember to take a little more time to clarify what has been published in MSM and what has not before I make posts in future.
My apologies to everyone here. Sometimes when you are close to something - what has been actually published in MSM and what seems common knowledge gets muddled.

 

[alioop]

I believe GBC and Allison were in serious financial trouble and whilst the financial analyst worked out that on paper they were only $58K in debt at the time of Allison's disappearance, they seemed to have had little ability to raise the cash to pay hundreds of thousands in debts that were shortly due for repayment. GBC's distress in asking Bruce Flegg for a loan is evidence of the pressure and financial difficulties they were under. The calculation of the $58K probably included the value of their business and rent roll which on paper may have been worth a lot of money but it wasn't cash to be accessed to pay loans unless the business was sold. That was their livelihood and it seems they weren't trying to sell it from what we know.

So they had to come up with a lot of money in a short time and no way to do it. That is serious financial trouble in my opinion. Their credit card was maxed out at $45,000. They couldn't pay insurance premiums. Their day to day living costs must have been affected. Pressure would have been mounting daily as their finances got worst. There was a recent case where an Ipswich man was convicted of murdering his wife to collect her ilife insurance of $180,000. Whilst this amount doesn't seem to warrant murder to most people, a jury were convinced beyond reasonable doubt that it was motive in that case.

I don't think that it naturally follows that the less GBC actually owed when calculated by the accountant, the less the motive for murder because what it means is that there would be more left over from Allison's life insurances after paying all his debts. It would leave him with all his financial worries gone, debts paid, a way to get out of his marriage and be with TM and have a nice big nest egg. Isn't that possible motive for murder? The judge at the second bail hearing didn't seem too concerned that anything had changed because on paper he was "only" $58,000 in debt. The judge said it is still on the wrong side of solvency. This means if one of their creditors had issued a bankrupty notice and they had gone into bankruptcy, on those figures they would have lost everything and been bankrupt for at least 3 years. Bankruptcy has a lot of implications other than losing everything. It affects the ability to be a director of a company, to run a business, to apply for any credit, to rent a house etc. And the non financial consequences of loss of reputation, both business and personally. GBC I think would have been mortified about going bankrupt. Serious consequences which were within the realm of possibility with GBC and Allison in my opinion. They owed lots of people money. It would take only one of them to start bankruptcy proceedings against them.

On the issue of loans to TM, I have no recollection of hearing about any such loans.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/ipswich-man-convicted-of-wifes-murder-20121101-28mji.html

 

[marlywings]

No, don't think in MSM. That's just in my opinion. Perhaps I should have worded it; There is a pay phone very close to GBC's old C21 offices, perhaps it would have been very easy for him to use that pay phone to call TM.
Off to hide in shame for a while now - and remember to take a little more time to clarify what has been published in MSM and what has not before I make posts in future.
My apologies to everyone here. Sometimes when you are close to something - what has been actually published in MSM and what seems common knowledge gets muddled.

I recall saying a long time back & I'm still of the same opinion now. When GBC had his little stay in hospital after his "crash"...I think a phone in there was one of the pay phones which he used to contact TM, as he thought it may not be traced.

June 23, 2012

The police claimed in their court documents, Baden-Clay maintained contact with Ms McHugh.

Police say Ms McHugh had told them he called her from pay phones and emailed her as Bruce Overland. He needed to "lay low" he said, but he would be in touch.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-in-court-claim/story-e6freoof-1226405967381

 

[Mountain Misst]

I doubt Allison would have even known about the loan from TM. GBC didn't ask Flegg for the loan until December 2011...then again in March 2012. I think he over borrowed & as I said, didn't have the experience to pull himself out of it.

Was there a loan from TM, Marly - Link?

 

[they'll get you]

Yes, and I am pretty sure that it was listed in the amounts owed in MSM somewhere after the second bail hearing. I will try to find a link.

I'm looking too, I remember!

 

[marlywings]

Was there a loan from TM, Marly - Link?

Not that I'm aware of...which is why I asked redlight to clarify. I thought perhaps, seeing as she's a verified insider, she may have "heard" something.

By all MSM reports there's no mention any of the loans were from TM. There was speculation on here a long time back that perhaps at least one of the amounts came from TM.

 

[Liadan]

Is there anyone out there who would know - how much does it cost to move premises? So signage and the office fitout? I think having the building signage is a bit of a premium for a business and brings in loads of new business - hence the draw card but also is very expensive so can be something that happens as the business develops? I have no idea what other costs there would be involve in moving an RE business. But there has been no mention of how GBC paid for these - or despite sub-letting he was planning on recouping the business after such profitable years. Surely getting the business back in the black would have been a priority of his so he could support his family?

 

[Amee]

Dont forget he traded in his beloved $77,000 Lexus

He said Mr Baden-Clay was a "proud'' man who was thinking of quitting as president of the Kenmore Chamber of Commerce - even recently trading in his beloved Lexus, which he bought in 2009 for $77,000. - See more at: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...y-e6freoof-1226344121450#sthash.C2Ns48wF.dpuf

 

[they'll get you]

When Allison disappeared, the police argued, Baden-Clay was $1 million in debt.
Of that, $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements", $200,000 to a former business partner, $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage, $45,000 on a credit card, $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21, various business loans and police allege $58,000 to his parents, Nigel and Elaine.
"Enquiries to date have failed to identify any legitimate means of salvaging his debt or finances prior to July 2012 in order to meet his commitment to McHugh," the police affidavit said.

You see these comments in MSM you you see where er can go wrong
- See more at: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...y-e6freoof-1226405967381#sthash.CoJGezpJ.dpuf

 

[Amee]

Amandaton1 posted this from Channel 10 news way back in thread 26

ok been trying to post a screen shot of the breakdown Channel 10 showed re the money, wont let me, so here is what it showed:
$275,000 in 3 Gentlemen agreements
$200,000 to J Frost
$ 90,000 to B Bassingthwaite
$ 75,000 to CEO of Century 21 Australasia
$ 58,000 to his parents
$ 15,000 Franchise fees to Century 21
$ 45,000 Credit card debt....
Thanks

 

[alioop]

Thanks TGY. I think that salvaging his finances and his commitment to TM were different issues but were both very pressing as they were only 2 and a half months away. He was under lots of pressures from TM, creditors and Allison. maybe also his parents too.

 

[Liadan]

Amandaton1 posted this from Channel 10 news way back in thread 26

ok been trying to post a screen shot of the breakdown Channel 10 showed re the money, wont let me, so here is what it showed:
$275,000 in 3 Gentlemen agreements
$200,000 to J Frost
$ 90,000 to B Bassingthwaite
$ 75,000 to CEO of Century 21 Australasia
$ 58,000 to his parents
$ 15,000 Franchise fees to Century 21
$ 45,000 Credit card debt....
Thanks

Interesting that at least some of these debts pre-date the move to the Taringa premises as Ben and Jocelyn were no longer in employ so what was the impetus to move to a bigger venue when the business was fragile - and who was helping to do the fitout?

IF TM made so much $$ out of the market during the time she was employed why didn't she move to her own place instead of renting? What was consuming her cash flow - was she planning on renting forever? She had owned property with her de-facto previously so she was definitely not property shy!

 

[Amee]

Century 21 owner Charles Tarbey said he was waiting to learn the fate of the Westside franchise but Mr Baden-Clay was yet to seek required approvals to move. -

See more at: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...y-e6frep2f-1226367888088#sthash.IClPUbby.dpuf

 

[Snails]

Is there anyone out there who would know - how much does it cost to move premises? So signage and the office fitout? I think having the building signage is a bit of a premium for a business and brings in loads of new business - hence the draw card but also is very expensive so can be something that happens as the business develops? I have no idea what other costs there would be involve in moving an RE business. But there has been no mention of how GBC paid for these - or despite sub-letting he was planning on recouping the business after such profitable years. Surely getting the business back in the black would have been a priority of his so he could support his family?

We recently expanded and refitted our professional practice - no change from $150000.

 

[Liadan]

We recently expanded and refitted our professional practice - no change from $150000.

Thanks so much Snails - we really havent seen these costs laid out as being consequential in the finance info we have to date! nd to me this would be consequentialfor the business and GBC!

 

[Snails]

Thanks so much Snails - we really havent seen these costs laid out as being consequential in the finance info we have to date! nd to me this would be consequentialfor the business and GBC!

And there's also the extra ongoing costs involved. Higher electricity, rent, insurances etc.

 

[alioop]

Sounds to me like GBC couldn't afford to move and couldn't afford to stay in his Taringa premises adding to his financial stress. We don't know how long he had left to run on his lease but commercial leases are usually a minimum of 3 years with options for further periods. It would have been costly to break a lease too.

Edit- he did of course move to Toowong Towers after Allison died, but that wasn't really setting up new premises, just a serviced office for himself to run his fast declining business. Maybe by then he was expecting to be arrested so was trying to get his business wound up as best he could.

 

[Snails]

Sounds to me like GBC couldn't afford to move and couldn't afford to stay in his Taringa premises adding to his financial stress. We don't know how long he had left to run on his lease but commercial leases are usually a minimum of 3 years with options for further periods. It would have been costly to break a lease too.

Edit- he did of course move to Toowong Towers after Allison died, but that wasn't really setting up new premises, just a serviced office for himself to run his fast declining business. Maybe by then he was expecting to be arrested so was trying to get his business wound up as best he could.

That's right. As we own one half of our premises and the other half is leased, it was in our interest to request a 5 year lease with a 5 year option. As GBC's business was struggling financially then in my opinion (& experience) you need to be making a decent profit to cover the extra costs involved. And I'm in the relative recession proof medical field.