AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[Margo/Mom]

There seems to be some sort of "disconnect" (for lack of a better word) between the parents vs. the pre-teen, teen, and adult children. The parents do not have the "fear" of the younger children talking to DHS but I think that comes from their lack of understanding of child developmental milestones for 2 reasons.

1) Developmentally speaking, the very ages that adolescents begin to understand that their parents are just humans with flaws and not idolized as they once were for their "parental awesomeness". These are the ages they start making their own decisions about what they like and how that differs from their parents sometimes. What they think might be different from what they have been taught and the "obey or chose beatings or hell" rigidity in parenting is not really conducive to healthy relationships and has signficant consequences in the longterm. (IMO)


2) The younger children will probably tell more information than the older children about any safety threats in the home through their their play and non-verbal communication. Not to mention their answers to open ended questions, their growth and development, behaviors in a variety of settings - including during parental interaction.

I am really curious about their visits. Is the time spent playing with the children and focusing on enjoying their limited time together? Or is it primarily a congregation gathering for a hell/fire/damnation sermon the entire time? Even if the 30 minute sermon is kept during the visits, are they guilt laden? If they don't have to focus on school or homework during the visits - what do the parents do with the time with the kids? Do the parents know how to play, interact, engage with all ages for fun?

Apparently the visitation has not been given over to worship time--except for the trip home for worship. Prior to the trip home, Hal was saying publically that he was not allowed to pray with the children. Apparently someone clarified for him that prayer is not forbidden.

With that said, I can imagine that supervised visitation--a specified number of hours in some "neutral" location must be incredibly trying for any family. Probably slightly less enjoyable than being stranded at an airport for hours during a layover. I will say that they always manage to arrange a family portrait--and someone in the family (perhaps Michelle) seems to be a very good photographer.

 

[IAMME]

Does anyone know the ages of the kids? Has this been reported anywhere? Anyone still allowed to post on the fb page to find out?

 

[daisytrail]

There seems to be some sort of "disconnect" (for lack of a better word) between the parents vs. the pre-teen, teen, and adult children. The parents do not have the "fear" of the younger children talking to DHS but I think that comes from their lack of understanding of child developmental milestones for 2 reasons.

1) Developmentally speaking, the very ages that adolescents begin to understand that their parents are just humans with flaws and not idolized as they once were for their "parental awesomeness". These are the ages they start making their own decisions about what they like and how that differs from their parents sometimes. What they think might be different from what they have been taught and the "obey or chose beatings or hell" rigidity in parenting is not really conducive to healthy relationships and has signficant consequences in the longterm. (IMO)

Respectfully snipped for focus. This could be true, but there could also be something very different going on with the older children in terms of their treatment by their parent. This could be due to the older children's increasing assertiveness or to their developing sexuality.

 

[K_Z]

I'm wondering if we might see some kind of compromise, too. The oldest kids perhaps go to live with a relative, with the blessings of MS (and possibly HS). The younger ones come home, perhaps to the custody of MS. I think MS is much more likely than HS to agree to the conditions that will be imposed.

I'm even wondering if there could be some kind of voluntary separation whereby HS agrees not to live in the home, so the kids can come home to Michelle? Continue with supervised visitation with HS, but give physical custody to MS? IDK if they could pay for that indefinitely. IDK if that's even realistic, but it seems like it would be better than TPR or continued foster care.

gitana1-- any thoughts?

 

[human]

Foster care is incredibly expensive and states do anything not to have to pay for it.

That is where the idea of reunification came to be. Money. I served on a committee in my community where a bunch of professionals were lead by a politician to agree that reunificiation was the best policy.

It was all about the money. I think most of us were astounded as we were led down a clever path and it was made into law

I sincerely believe that reunification is not the best thing for all children. I wonder how it actually works in most cases.

 

[daisytrail]

Apparently the visitation has not been given over to worship time--except for the trip home for worship. Prior to the trip home, Hal was saying publically that he was not allowed to pray with the children. Apparently someone clarified for him that prayer is not forbidden.

With that said, I can imagine that supervised visitation--a specified number of hours in some "neutral" location must be incredibly trying for any family. Probably slightly less enjoyable than being stranded at an airport for hours during a layover. I will say that they always manage to arrange a family portrait--and someone in the family (perhaps Michelle) seems to be a very good photographer.

I have listened to many prayers where the focus was not toward the ears of god but purposefully directed to the audience to suggest (or in the case of the children, maybe) compel certain responses, behaviors, or just pointedly for the purpose of guilt-tripping. These sorts of prayer do always amuse me because they are more preaching than beseeching god. I have nothing against them, in particular. They are handy for unit cohesiveness, but I always recognize them for what they are. Per example, a meeting of an organization in which there had been treasury expenditures unaccounted for: There was much beseeching about god's power of forgiveness. Not at all surprising, but it was not god who absconded with the funds.

If Mr. Stanley's prayers should take the form of saying that god prefers keeping family business within the family, that would be most improper. However, I have no way of knowing that they took that direction.

 

[wenwe4]

Does anyone know the ages of the kids? Has this been reported anywhere? Anyone still allowed to post on the fb page to find out?

I only know age ranges 4 - 16. I won't post on their fb page.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Respectfully snipped for focus. This could be true, but there could also be something very different going on with the older children in terms of their treatment by their parent. This could be due to the older children's increasing assertiveness or to their developing sexuality.

In fact, I have greater worries about the older children at this point. There are repeated references to "rebellious teenagers" or teens with "a rebellious spirit." Given Hal's preaching vocabulary, I have to believe that they are not discussing something that they believe to be a developmental stage that is difficult. They are viewing these children as being inhabited by demons, or a spirit of evil. When I consider this in the context of Hal's belief in chastising with a rod, I can only envision him trying to beat the devil out of these older kids. While the younger children may be terrorized into obedience (and probably smart enough to avoid Hal's wrath), these teens must have some fight in them. And, they also have the ability to head out should the family be re-unified before they have re-established a sense of safety there.

 

[IAMME]

I'm just trying to get an understanding of the kids dynamics... But from looking at pictures from oldest to youngest they appear to be (girl/boy) g-b-b-g-g-g-g-b-b, so the "Rebel teens" are a boy and a girl, right? And are a 16 year old boy and a girl about 13-15? I'm just trying to put in all into perspective for my own understanding....

 

[gitana1]

I'm wondering if we might see some kind of compromise, too. The oldest kids perhaps go to live with a relative, with the blessings of MS (and possibly HS). The younger ones come home, perhaps to the custody of MS. I think MS is much more likely than HS to agree to the conditions that will be imposed.

I'm even wondering if there could be some kind of voluntary separation whereby HS agrees not to live in the home, so the kids can come home to Michelle? Continue with supervised visitation with HS, but give physical custody to MS? IDK if they could pay for that indefinitely. IDK if that's even realistic, but it seems like it would be better than TPR or continued foster care.

gitana1-- any thoughts?

I don't know, really. My sense is that the county/state will mandate that they take a parenting class, not use corporal punishment on the kids, attend family counseling and they will be returned. There is always a reunification plan unless sexual abuse has occurred and that's not my feeling about this case. If they can agree to that, all will be fine. It is possible that the older kids can't be reconciled with the parents and be placed elsewhere, though.

 

[IAMME]

I don't know, really. My sense is that the county/state will mandate that they take a parenting class, not use corporal punishment on the kids, attend family counseling and they will be returned. There is always a reunification plan unless sexual abuse has occurred and that's not my feeling about this case. If they can agree to that, all will be fine. It is possible that the older kids can't be reconciled with the parents and be placed elsewhere, though.

Can they order them not to use "alternative medical therapies" like MMS, or to only use them after consulting and getting it okayed through a physician?

 

[gitana1]

Can they order them not to use "alternative medical therapies" like MMS, or to only use them after consulting and getting it okayed through a physician?

Yes. They can.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.nwahomepage.com/fulltext...xpert-speaks-out/33522/7FfmhR1bXUuADs2aVtKtTg

According to Tibbs, the Arkansas Child Maltreatment Act outlines how an investigation is handled.

"That's part of just the investigation is trying to see if there's enough evidence to prove whether physical abuse or sexual abuse or emotional abuse had occurred." Said Tibbs.

The Children's Advocacy Center saw 726 open cases in Benton County last year. Majority of those were physical and sexual abuse. Though Tibbs says emotional abuse goes widely unreported.

"With other forms of abuse you may have the actual physical sign of what happened." Said Tibbs.

Tibbs goes on to say that there are many different parenting styles, and Arkansas law doesn't specify how you can or cannot discipline your kids.

"It will say it needs to be moderate and provide correction of a child's behavior." Said Tibbs.

"If it's enough to raise concern to where it's not okay then, that's just where you report that." Said Tibbs.

Benton County Prosecuting Attorney, Nathan Smith says that while he won't comment on the Harris family situation, generally speaking, behavior that is damaging to a child emotionally and not physically would fall under endangering the welfare of a child.

eta: http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/dcfspublications/pub-357.pdf

 

[K_Z]

Somehow, I missed this yesterday.

Partway thru the video, Stanley family attorney Byrum Hurst identifies R. David Lewis of Little Rock, as the attorney representing the 5 younger children. It's unclear to me if Atty Lewis is newly appointed, or has been the attorney representing all 7 kids from the beginning.

[video=youtube;GuLQXiiUFuQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuLQXiiUFuQ&t=128[/video]

R. David Lewis doesn't appear to have a website any longer, but is using FB to publicize his services. He is cross-referenced on more than a dozen attorney-source sites.

https://www.facebook.com/rdavidlewis

http://www.arkansasherald.com/2015/03/outcome-stanley-parents-in-court-for-motion-hearing/

 

[milkymama]

An "educational neglect" allegation may be a factor in this also. Arkansas requires yearly testing of homeschooled kids as well as a yearly approved request to homeschool. (No religious exemption like in some other states.) If the parents didn't follow these rules (no idea if they did or not), then the state considers it "neglect", even if the kids are being educated properly at home. Interestingly, the school can fail to follow an IEP and it isn't considered neglect. Convenient.

Also, not providing preventative care (well baby checks) is not medical neglect (unless there is a medical condition...in which case it isn't preventative care). Only failure to treat an actual medical condition is, and there is a religious exemption for that.

There are some examples of physical punishment that are abuse, but it depends on if there is injury. For example, Arkansas allows slapping a child age 7 or over in the face if no injury occurred (it is also considered ok even if injury occurred but there was justifiable cause), but not at all if under 7 even if no injury, cause or not.

http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/dcfspublications/pub-357.pdf

 

[K_Z]

I also wanted to add my observation that the oldest teen boy continues to by scapegoated, with phrases such as "lies of a teenage boy in rebellion". Yesterday's comments on FB clearly single him out. I have to wonder if it will ever be in his best interest to return to that home. I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would be for him to go home to that environment in that community, with all of their neighbors and friends blaming him as the terrible person who created this whole situation. I think it's shameful that the Stanleys themselves speak about him this way, and allow their friends to speak that way on their behalf about this teen.

Maybe the teen was right, maybe he was wrong. But I really hate to see him blamed and scapegoated this way. It makes me think a lot less of all of the adults engaged in bashing him.

 

[bessythecat]

Kristy from "Bring the Stanley Kids Home" Facebook page has added a new post. She defines the word "arrest." She asks

"Here is a question to think about.
You see the definition of arrest, is this not what the state has done to the Stanley children?
They have been taken and are being kept or detained by the authority of the law"

https://www.facebook.com/bringthestanleykidshome?_rdr

 

[flourish]

Kristy from "Bring the Stanley Kids Home" Facebook page has added a new post. She defines the word "arrest." She asks https://www.facebook.com/bringthestanleykidshome?_rdr

Reading that I rolled my eyes so hard they popped out of their sockets.

 

[wenwe4]

I truly wish that these parents would spend their energy on working toward eliminating the issues that placed their children at risk of harm. To blame their children for lying suggests that there will be consequences once the parents have power and control over those they deem spoke against them. I bet the 2 older teens are even more fearful of their parents given the statements the parents have made.

 

[CathyinTexas]

This is a video of the family when the older ones were home. The oldest was 16. This is not a family that others have described here. These children are full of delight, able to express themselves. There is no abuse here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOA5l7A-rVs