AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce, Wynarka, Bones of a Child Discovered, July'15 - #7

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SapphireSteel said:
You are.

Genetic science has come far enough that they can create a face merely by DNA.

What you are likely to look like...be Caucasian, say, have a big nose and closely spaced eyes because its in your genetic map.

Its in its infancy so restricted to research at the moment but it IS available.

In Baby Wynarkas case they have a skull. They could very well be reconstructing her face as we speak, the old fashioned way, with an artist and clay.

However I used to work with SAPOL and believe the resounding silence in the local press speaks volumes.

They have an ID imo, and a suspect.

This is a very small part of the world down here - SA especially so - Adelaide itself is famous for being the Worlds Biggest Village. You literally cant go anywhere without bumping into someone who knows someone you know - 1 degree of separation instead of 3 or 4 like more populated places. A stranger literally will be gawped at. Suitcase guy.

Its how they caught Ivan Milat, btw. People KNEW him, called up police and told them. Tip after tip all naming the same guy.
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Great info there Sapphire. Especially as you are from the area.
It's been my belief that due to the lack of info being supplied to the public on 'suitcase guy' that they have a very good idea of who he is.
Whether or not he is responsible for Angel's death, only we can surmise.
Hopefully SAPOL are a lot further ahead in their investigations than we are.
 
Imagine the technology they will have in another 10 years. I do wonder how it can keep the same pace.
 
SapphireSteel said:
You are.

Genetic science has come far enough that they can create a face merely by DNA.

What you are likely to look like...be Caucasian, say, have a big nose and closely spaced eyes because its in your genetic map.

Its in its infancy so restricted to research at the moment but it IS available.

In Baby Wynarkas case they have a skull. They could very well be reconstructing her face as we speak, the old fashioned way, with an artist and clay.

However I used to work with SAPOL and believe the resounding silence in the local press speaks volumes.

They have an ID imo, and a suspect.

This is a very small part of the world down here - SA especially so - Adelaide itself is famous for being the Worlds Biggest Village. You literally cant go anywhere without bumping into someone who knows someone you know - 1 degree of separation instead of 3 or 4 like more populated places. A stranger literally will be gawped at. Suitcase guy.

Its how they caught Ivan Milat, btw. People KNEW him, called up police and told them. Tip after tip all naming the same guy.
Click to expand...

Yes, though constructing a face from DNA really must be in its infancy if in terms of genotype we can't be completely sure which particular country a person is from, never mind anything more specific than that. There are halpogroups which include vast swathes of North Africa, or the Middle East, or North and South Europe, for example. That gives a general picture of a person but nothing more.

The idea that has been expressed in some discussions here that we would know if a person might be of a Scottish vs Irish background from DNA, for example, is not quite right - that's a very narrow distinction. We might know if someone was from a northern vs southern European background, for example, or from one part of Asia rather than another. To break it down by country is not possible yet, and given that most countries are comprised of different groups of immigrants dating thousands of years back in time, reaching that goal is complex and possibly quite arbitrary. European nations as they are scored on today's maps are very recent phenomena on any genetic timescale.

So I take your point about creating a face from DNA rather than a skull, but at this point, it can't be a very exact science. The 'old-fashioned' method, as you say, is probably what they're working on.

That being said, in this particular case, the genetic angle will be being explored to its absolute limit as there's really almost nothing else to go on - witnesses, and person or persons involved, being so unwilling (or perhaps unable) to come forward.

I fully agree that SAPOL's silence means that there is probably something very interesting going on in the background. We shouldn't lose hope just because we're not being fed information every day. They're obviously not able to divulge whatever it is they are working on - which shows that it's sensitive material.
 
Even if they could tell precisely where one's ancestors came from, that doesn't and will never be able to tell us much about the person whose DNA was tested. They might be able to say you're an Ashkenhazic Jew from central Europe, for instance, but they can't tell whether you came to this country three generations ago or emigrated last week, or were adopted at birth by a Chinese family who raised you as a Confucian scholar, or by an Italian family who emigrated to Fiji, or if you were a visiting professor, a tourist, a kidnapped sex worker, an illegal immigrant with an assumed identity, and on and on and on.

So even if they reach that point with DNA research, it's probably not going to be as useful as it sounds at first.
 
carbuff said:
Even if they could tell precisely where one's ancestors came from, that doesn't and will never be able to tell us much about the person whose DNA was tested. They might be able to say you're an Ashkenhazic Jew from central Europe, for instance, but they can't tell whether you came to this country three generations ago or emigrated last week, or were adopted at birth by a Chinese family who raised you as a Confucian scholar, or by an Italian family who emigrated to Fiji, or if you were a visiting professor, a tourist, a kidnapped sex worker, an illegal immigrant with an assumed identity, and on and on and on.

So even if they reach that point with DNA research, it's probably not going to be as useful as it sounds at first.
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I am aware that bone.teeth testing will reveal where the individual spent the most time.

In our baby's case I suggest she has been exposed to the (highly treated) SA water and they can tell.

Also South Australia has practically zero zinc in its soil.

Anyone who grows up around these parts>>>science can tell. Especially with a tiny girl who has only been on the planet for a couple of years.

SAPOL seem quite convinced the baby is from South Australia and I suggest the bone/teeth analysis is the reason for this conviction.

So, add in a face mapped by DNA, and a history, and you have a whole lot of information to work on.

Which is why SAPOL have gone quiet. IMO the next announcement will be Arrest.
 
SapphireSteel said:
As an aside to this case, SAPOL have just apparently solved a 30 year old cold case.

Louise Bell was abducted from her Hackham West home and SAPOL have just arrested Dieter Pfennig for her murder.

http://www.news.com.au/national/sou...-trial-next-week/story-fnii5yv4-1227537326778
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This is a very good example of the police having a suspect reasonably early on, but not having the evidence to secure a conviction. Mind you, they wrongly convicted another guy early on too, based on circumstantial evidence. From memory, they searched Pfennig's house in the early 90's, after he had abducted and killed another child. They were making sure they got it right this time.

They also could have arrested him sooner, but there were delays of a legal nature. For anyone interested http://www.mako.org.au/missing-children-Louise-Bell.html

I remember when this happened very clearly, as she was only a few years younger than me when she was taken.

I am so glad we live in times of increased surveillance and DNA technology. Bring it on, I say, those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.

It is for people like Pfennig that you wish they would make exceptions with the death penalty.
 
SapphireSteel said:
I am aware that bone.teeth testing will reveal where the individual spent the most time.

In our baby's case I suggest she has been exposed to the (highly treated) SA water and they can tell.

Also South Australia has practically zero zinc in its soil.

Anyone who grows up around these parts>>>science can tell. Especially with a tiny girl who has only been on the planet for a couple of years.

SAPOL seem quite convinced the baby is from South Australia and I suggest the bone/teeth analysis is the reason for this conviction.

So, add in a face mapped by DNA, and a history, and you have a whole lot of information to work on.

Which is why SAPOL have gone quiet. IMO the next announcement will be Arrest.
Click to expand...

I wasn't questioning the information SAPOL has, or the value of the isotope testing, and I'm sorry if you thought I was. I just doubt that the detailed DNA information would add much to the search.
 
I don't often post but I'll say this in defence of a DNA line of enquiry:

Recently I had my ethnic DNA profile tested by a prominent online genealogy website. I was motivated to learn more about my ehtnic makeup and was initially unware that the test would connect me to all other online members with similar DNA.

I NEVER expected my DNA to be connected in any other members because none of my ancestors came from an English speaking country, and the website is used mainly by residents in Australia and UK and US. Also, I had never met anyone else who had done this test so I thought it was not widespread even among people who are actively interested in genealogy. In short, I had pretty low expectations of what a DNA test could do for my family tree.

When the test came back, not only did it tell me my ethnic make up, according to world regions, but it also listed 18 PAGES of my online relatives at last count. Some of these relatives were 4th cousins or closer, though I had never heard of them. Many of these relatives have extensive family trees posted online through the website. And many of these trees are public.

Through these family trees I was able to see how accurate the test was as it traced one of my one great-grandfathers (the one I know most about) to the tiny village where he was born. I'm sure it traced my other great-grandparents too and through others' trees I will be able to find them.

My great-grandparents' generation was born in mid nineteenth century, but in Angel's case it would have been born around 1920 or thereabouts. Quite possibly born in Australia, but even if they weren't I can almost guarantee she'll have a relative among the DNA-tested members of my genealogy website - ancestry.com.au (please delete if mention of this website is not allowed).

Sure, it wouldn't be easy to figure out where these members' family trees connected with Angel's, but it would be possible. I'd say there'd be quite a few amateur genealogists who'd fall over themselves to be Abel to help if police resources were lacking. Personally I don't think it would be any less productive than knocking on doors or going through thousands of children records. In Boston's Baby Doe case, these records proved useless, sadly.

I really hope the police have thought about all this - not just trying to match her DNA though police records but also through geneology websites.

In any case, I feel we will have an ID soon and following that justice for Angel.
 
@Thebuttlerdidntdoit How much did the DNA genealogy analysis cost?

That is some serious crime analysis there. One bit of DNA with all those family members
 
"It was the 18th of January in 1989. Michael Black was just 10 years old when he was abducted by Pfenning from a reserve near Murray Bridge. His body was never found.
Murray Bridge is a small town on the Murray River. Pfenning placed the child’s bicycle and clothing upstream on the Murray bank in an attempt at ‘staging’ the scene to appear as though he had drowned."
Already convicted on murder not far from where our angle was found...
http://auscrimes.com/2013/12/06/louise-bell-abduction-long-time-suspect-dieter-pfenning-arrested/

 
It's unlikely this child was a victim of abduction though, as police have stated, because she has never been reported as missing.
 
Thebuttlerdidntdoit said:
I don't often post but I'll say this in defence of a DNA line of enquiry:

Recently I had my ethnic DNA profile tested by a prominent online genealogy website. I was motivated to learn more about my ehtnic makeup and was initially unware that the test would connect me to all other online members with similar DNA.

I NEVER expected my DNA to be connected in any other members because none of my ancestors came from an English speaking country, and the website is used mainly by residents in Australia and UK and US. Also, I had never met anyone else who had done this test so I thought it was not widespread even among people who are actively interested in genealogy. In short, I had pretty low expectations of what a DNA test could do for my family tree.

When the test came back, not only did it tell me my ethnic make up, according to world regions, but it also listed 18 PAGES of my online relatives at last count. Some of these relatives were 4th cousins or closer, though I had never heard of them. Many of these relatives have extensive family trees posted online through the website. And many of these trees are public.

Through these family trees I was able to see how accurate the test was as it traced one of my one great-grandfathers (the one I know most about) to the tiny village where he was born. I'm sure it traced my other great-grandparents too and through others' trees I will be able to find them.

My great-grandparents' generation was born in mid nineteenth century, but in Angel's case it would have been born around 1920 or thereabouts. Quite possibly born in Australia, but even if they weren't I can almost guarantee she'll have a relative among the DNA-tested members of my genealogy website - ancestry.com.au (please delete if mention of this website is not allowed).

Sure, it wouldn't be easy to figure out where these members' family trees connected with Angel's, but it would be possible. I'd say there'd be quite a few amateur genealogists who'd fall over themselves to be Abel to help if police resources were lacking. Personally I don't think it would be any less productive than knocking on doors or going through thousands of children records. In Boston's Baby Doe case, these records proved useless, sadly.

I really hope the police have thought about all this - not just trying to match her DNA though police records but also through geneology websites.

In any case, I feel we will have an ID soon and following that justice for Angel.
Click to expand...

That's fascinating. Thanks for sharing. <modsnip>


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It seems that the value of most DNA testing is in its matching to other information. When my son had his DNA done a couple of years ago, it turned up practically nothing about my side of the family, because we're from a class and background that didn't leave very many records behind and even now aren't searching much for our ancestors. We're just a string of names with birth and death dates attached.
 
All babies born in Australia have a pinprick test on their heel.

I suggest SAPOL has accessed these results (as they are stored) and are analyzing the DNA (and whereabouts) of all female babies born in SA in that year.
 
Not if one or more of your family has a criminal record.

SAPOL stores all DNA taken on arrest.

If there is a mitochondrial match to our baby Wynarka, they'll find it.

I'm also mindful that at last report, SAPOL were finding it difficult to extract any DNA at all from the bones.

IIRC they've sent them overseas for more advanced testing.

When you think about it, if they have to do it "the long way", by which I mean scouring all birth records, analyzing all pinprick swabs, its going to take a loooooong time...!
 
Fortunate said:
Just read this... Sickening! http://www.mygc.com.au/news/man-who-sexually-tortured-wife-and-two-sons-jailed/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ear-wife-s-clothes-sexually-abusing-them.html
Click to expand...

Justices Tom Gray, John Sulan and David Lovell agreed that the man should be locked away for 43 years but decided on 20 years as they did not want to 'crush' him, saying he would most likely die in jail during this time.

NPP 12y only :banghead:

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...thes-sexually-abusing-them.html#ixzz3mjriWS5s
 
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