Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #5 *Arrest*

[Amalgam]

I haven't heard this before and keen to know more if you happen to have a link/reference as that's not my understanding of C-PTSD

I’ve been part of a court case with psychiatrists giving expert evidence and this was part of their evidence.

EDIT TO ADD : this court case was in 2014. Looking at recent research it seems that whilst there is a big overlap in symptoms and the conditions often occur together in the same patient they do distinguish between cPTSD and BPD.

 

[Estelle]

or personality disorder? is that considered mental illness?

A personality disorder is a mental health condition where people have a lifelong pattern of seeing themselves and reacting to others in ways that cause problems. People with personality disorders often have a hard time understanding emotions and tolerating distress. And they act impulsively. This makes it hard for them to relate to others, causing serious issues, and affecting their family life, social activities, work and school performance, and overall quality of life.

Personality disorders - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

By the way, which personality disorders do you have in mind? Or is it best not said here?

 

[Amalgam]

vinteresting re what the dogs are prob. trained to sniff for.
{ A SIM card is basically an electronic chip that is made of silicon in addition to some other metals including phosphorus and gold. If you notice SIM cards you will see an outer layer of gold, which comes into contact with your device.}
source: google search- awaRefiners.co.uk (old sims are sold in bulk for their scrap gold.)

The dogs are trained to sniff out a chemical called triphenylphosphine oxide, TPPO for short.

TPPO is used as a coating for memory chips, to protect them from overheating.

An extract of pure TPPO is used in technology detection dog training.

 

[discostu]

I’ve been part of a court case with psychiatrists giving expert evidence and this was part of their evidence.

EDIT TO ADD : this court case was in 2014. Looking at recent research it seems that whilst there is a big overlap in symptoms and the conditions often occur together in the same patient they do distinguish between cPTSD and BPD.

That's what I found too when I googled, thanks for clarifying

 

[Estelle]

Various personality disorders are certainly considered mental illnesses according to the DSM. They have recently been renamed to avoid what were considered stigmatizing or derogatory terms. For example Borderline Personality Disorder is now called complex PTSD.

Is complex PTSD the same as borderline personality disorder?

Individuals with complex PTSD often over-regulate emotions, using emotional numbing, withdrawing, or dissociation to cope with reminders of traumatic experiences. On the other hand, BPD is characterised by under-regulation of intense emotions, resulting in expressions of intense anger or self-harm.

CPTSD vs. BPD: What’s the Difference?

CPTSD and BPD share common symptoms and key differences. You can learn more here.

psychcentral.com

 

[mangoes999]

I’ve been part of a court case with psychiatrists giving expert evidence and this was part of their evidence.

EDIT TO ADD : this court case was in 2014. Looking at recent research it seems that whilst there is a big overlap in symptoms and the conditions often occur together in the same patient they do distinguish between cPTSD and BPD.

my amateur findings: I agree severe or sustained trauma can definitely, dramatically alter a person's personality to the point of dual-diagnosis -have 2(3) disorders/conditions together.
The history: It was named Borderline bc the people suffering from it were observed by psychs. to be on the border between neurosis and psychosis.

 

[Amalgam]

Is complex PTSD the same as borderline personality disorder?

Individuals with complex PTSD often over-regulate emotions, using emotional numbing, withdrawing, or dissociation to cope with reminders of traumatic experiences. On the other hand, BPD is characterised by under-regulation of intense emotions, resulting in expressions of intense anger or self-harm.

CPTSD vs. BPD: What’s the Difference?

CPTSD and BPD share common symptoms and key differences. You can learn more here.

psychcentral.com

I was involved with a court case in 2014 in Melbourne where two professors of psychiatry gave expert and witness evidence.

Both of them stated that what was once called Borderline Personality Disorder was now called complex PTSD as the name is less stigmatizing. Even though my recollection of this is crystal clear, I have just checked the book I kept my notes in during that case. This was definitely the two professors’ evidence at the time.

When I was queried on this after repeating it in this thread I researched it myself and it certainly seems that in 2023 they are no longer considered to be different names for the same condition, but they do have a lot in common and often occur simultaneously in a single patient.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Estelle]

I haven't heard this before and keen to know more if you happen to have a link/reference as that's not my understanding of C-PTSD

It is not my understanding of C-PTSD either. I have already done a post about this eg over-regulation of emotions vs under-regulation of emotions.

 

[bearbear]

i actually feel sad for her and do wonder about her motive if found guilty and her mental state and hope she is treated kindly, also hope her dog and children are ok and have proper support

 

[LadyL]

A personality disorder is a mental health condition where people have a lifelong pattern of seeing themselves and reacting to others in ways that cause problems. People with personality disorders often have a hard time understanding emotions and tolerating distress. And they act impulsively. This makes it hard for them to relate to others, causing serious issues, and affecting their family life, social activities, work and school performance, and overall quality of life.

Personality disorders - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

By the way, which personality disorders do you have in mind? Or is it best not said here?

it would probably take us too far o/t to speculate about that at this point in the case ... ?

 

[Neet_Mc]

questions: please refresh my memory- Her being the only cook at the deadly lunch and the major POI, didn't vicpol obtain a warrant to do a buy-the-book forensic-level search of her house in the first week or 2?
(in the last couple of months, you would think if shes guilty she would've gotten rid of anything incriminating by now. the poor families need answers.) Also, I assume vicpol got a warrant to tap/track her phone but perhaps she is using a burner/2nd phone for more private calls.

Perhaps they are looking for additional things that may not have been obvious from the outset. Also, Erin may have been up to things in the interim, which are related to the concealing things relating to the original crime which has become apparent from monitoring they have been doing since that time.

 

[Amalgam]

i actually feel sad for her and do wonder about her motive if found guilty and her mental state and hope she is treated kindly, also hope her dog and children are ok and have proper support

Whilst I appreciate that Erin may have been through a lot to hypothetically end up poisoning these victims, I find it very hard to feel sorry for her in the assumed absence of serious mental illness.

To plan ahead the preparation of a lethal meal, to serve it and sit eating with your invited victims, in the knowledge of how slowly and agonizingly they will die is sick, wicked, evil and twisted in the extreme. Utterly reprehensible.

It takes an egregiously arrogant person to think they can get away with this. Or a mind blowing level of selfishness to accept the risk of getting caught and yet still proceed, regardless of the potential consequences including the impact upon her own children.

People go through worse than Erin presumably has and remain civilized. Nothing can excuse this conduct if the perpetrator is of sound mind.

I feel deeply sorry for her children, the deceased and their families plus the community in which this unfolded.
IMHO

 

[Charlot123]

Is complex PTSD the same as borderline personality disorder?

Individuals with complex PTSD often over-regulate emotions, using emotional numbing, withdrawing, or dissociation to cope with reminders of traumatic experiences. On the other hand, BPD is characterised by under-regulation of intense emotions, resulting in expressions of intense anger or self-harm.

CPTSD vs. BPD: What’s the Difference?

CPTSD and BPD share common symptoms and key differences. You can learn more here.

psychcentral.com

Technically, they are different conditions. But this study is very interesting as it shows not the way people with BPD regulate emotions, but rather, how they think. (As always, it has no connection to individual cases, as one can speculate, but no diagnosis is possible without seeing a person).

The overlap between autistic spectrum conditions and borderline personality disorder

Both people with autism spectrum conditions (ASC) and borderline personality disorder (BPD) are significantly challenged in terms of understanding and responding to emotions and in interpersonal functioning.To compare ASC, BPD, and comorbid patients in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Estelle]

I'm always interested in hearing about Erin's possible motivation for this crime (if she is found guilty).

IMO it could have been about child custody and the four guests had dirt on Erin that they were going to reveal in court.

Also I have often wondered whether Erin is mentally ill.

The main "dirt" that the media have reported about Erin Patterson is this below but it happened 19 years ago when her name was Erin Scutter!

The woman who remains a suspect in a deadly mushroom beef wellington investigation can be revealed to have fled the scene of a drunken car crash and failed to provide information to police on a previous occasion.

48-year-old Erin Patterson was convicted of five charges after a drunken rampage in Glen Waverley, Victoria, in 2004 — leading police to suspend her license for 30 months.

The Australian reports her charges include; failing to give a name or address after causing property damage, using an unregistered vehicle on a highway and failing to stop after an accident.

She was also charged for driving 35km/h over the speed limit after travelling 95km/h in a 60km/h zone.

At the time Ms Patterson was named Erin Scutter.

The Australian reported her blood-alcohol level was 0.14 three hours after she fled the crash.

When speaking to media on Tuesday, prominent criminal lawyer Bill Doogue declined to comment on her previous convictions.

“Our client does not have any comment for you on a drink-driving charge from 19 years ago,” he said.

REVEALED: Mushroom cook’s past run-ins with police

The woman who remains a suspect in a deadly mushroom beef wellington investigation has been revealed to have fled the scene of a drunken car crash and failed to provide information to police.

thewest.com.au

 

[Kemug]

I'm guessing she won't be seeing her kids again for quite some time.

 

[minusfour]

i actually feel sad for her and do wonder about her motive if found guilty and her mental state and hope she is treated kindly, also hope her dog and children are ok and have proper support

I hope her dog and kids are ok, and that she is treated kindly, but I only feel sorry for the victims

 

[Amalgam]

I'm guessing she won't be seeing her kids again for quite some time.

Those poor children. I’m glad that their father is still in the picture.

 

[MrJ]

The ABC article has been updated to say that the police have finished their search, 'seizing items from inside', and EP has now been, in their words, 'escorted' to Wonthaggi Police Station for an interview.

 

[Kemug]

They have already just lost 2 grandparents (they now have none at all) and a great-aunt. Now they are facing the prospect of effectively losing their mother as well. If EP is guilty, how could she have done this to those poor kids?! They are victims too.

 

[Ellery84]

They have already just lost 2 grandparents (they now have none at all) and a great-aunt. Now they are facing the prospect of effectively losing their mother as well. If EP is guilty, how could she have done this to those poor kids?! They are victims too.

Right, and not so long ago their dad was in intensive care. It’s a very good thing that he pulled through.