Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

[JLZ]

Wouldn’t that be a tendency evidence nightmare of sorts for the Prosecution?

I’m sure there are a couple of great tendency specialists (Barristers) out there in Victoria, imo they might just blow this case to smithereens.

IMO

Tendency evidence generally isn't admissible. There would be dispute about having the circumstances of Simon's illness brought into the mushroom trial. But making Simon's sickness itself the subject of charges means evidence about it is directly relevant, not merely tendency evidence. Defence should then apply to have separate trials for the separate incidents. However, some defendants don't want the stress and expense of multiple trials.

 

[jjleroche]

I'm curious to see if they will drop any of the attempted murder charges for the suspected poisonings of her ex.

I wonder how much solid evidence there is for those incidents. Really curious to see what she's accused of giving him, since it wasn't death caps apparently.

Me to katydid23. I recall reading, a few threads ago (can't remember which Weblseuther posted it, and can't find it now), that this (charging EP with 4-5 attempted murders of SP) would be a specific strategy. Can't remember details of how this would work (haven't been awake for long - brain-fog etc) but it made sense when I read it at the time.
I'm going to keep looking for it, but of course, if the poster, or anyone else recalls, would love to refresh my memory. TIA. IMO

 

[Kemug]

I wonder if SP, rather than being paranoid, had eventually talked himself out of believing that EP had poisoned him - "Nah, she wouldn't do something like that, not possible, it's just a coincidence". And then suddenly 3 (nearly 4) of his family are allegedly murdered by poisoning! And allegedly by EP. What a jolt that must have been, as well as an appalling tragedy.

 

[katydid23]

Look, when @Lady Bug initially suggested charges can be dropped at committal hearings <in a general sense>, I actually started thinking, well ok - I wonder if the Crown will drop either the Death Cap lunch charges (including murder and attempted murder of various individuals known to Ms. Patterson) en masse or might they drop all of the historical charges of attempted murder relating to Simon Patterson?

To me, there’s no link between the alleged familial poisoning via beef Wellington and the historical charges of attempted murder (the ones alleged to have occurred before the lunch in question) of ex partner Simon, as you also have mentioned that the methodology was thought by police to be (allegedly) different, I. e. Not via death caps.

There are other ways, besides the type of poison used, to compare two murder attempts.

For example, just the act of trying to poison your partner, is a very big similarity in MO. Does the type of poison really make it dissimilar enough to rule it out?

Perhaps the MO looks different because the first choice of poison, nightshades, was not toxic enough to do the job? Thus the final attempt was with something called Death Caps?

One similarity between the two poisons used is that both are regular edible foods. She didn't try to use a chemical or an overdose of medications. She chose edible foods that are toxic in some situations. Mushrooms are regularly served unless you pick the wrong type.

None of this makes any sense to me.

I do wonder: In the brief that the Crown put together for Erin’s charges: What did the Prosecution state was the alleged method of Erin’s attempted murders of Simon prior to the lunch incident?

Was it allegedly death by weapon or some kind of poisoning?

I’m going to play devils advocate here and go out on a limb and ask:

Does anyone think that maybe ex partner Simon might be a bit paranoid and be mistakenly (but not maliciously) be attributing his previous illnesses on Erin with not much proof?

I don't think he was being paranoid. In fact, he was probably not paranoid enough because it kept happening.

All imo

I would really hate to see an innocent woman in prison, and I can’t see any motive she might have at all for anything that she has been charged with:
What am I missing, Sleuthers?

The motive is simple, and obvious, IMO. They were going through an upcoming divorce settlement. They had big issues to work out, like custody arrangements, property division and financial settlements. How much simpler would that be for her if her partner was erased?

 

[Lady Bug]

Me to katydid23. I recall reading, a few threads ago (can't remember which Weblseuther posted it, and can't find it now), that this (charging EP with 4-5 attempted murders of SP) would be a specific strategy. Can't remember details of how this would work (haven't been awake for long - brain-fog etc) but it made sense when I read it at the time.
I'm going to keep looking for it, but of course, if the poster, or anyone else recalls, would love to refresh my memory. TIA. IMO

I agree with this train of thought. The historical attempted poisoning charges could be a prosecutorial tactic.

It reminds me of the perjury/false swearing charges which were brought into the murder trial of Keli Lane. According to the Judge they could have and should have been severed as allowing them to be heard in the murder trial allowed the Crown to bring in a lot of circumstantial evidence he otherwise wouldn't have been able to.

 

[katydid23]

I agree…. I was quite suspicious over the alleged mushroom poisoning, and whether that was intentional or not, but I didn’t link it with Simon’s previous illnesses and hospital admissions until the police did, when they arrested Erin and laid all of those charges.

Obviously, the police know more than I do! <Maybe they’ve got it wrong!> And the police know more than the media know as they have custody of the actual evidence, but just as a regular person - I would never have drawn the connection between the two very different sets of situations. You have the (allegedly) fatal Beef Wellington lunch on one hand, and then a string of historical attempted murder charges on the other hand. The only common denominator that I can see between the two very distinct sets of (alleged) charges is: Simon Patterson the ex husband, who was supposed to be at the Beef Wellington lunch. IMO

To me it would have seemed like an outrageous conspiracy, and too fanciful to think anyone might have committed such a large amount of murders and attempted murders, some at a distinct point in time with a number of alleged victims and others over a period of time centred on only one victim, but outrageous things happen from time to time and I’m eagerly awaiting the upcoming matters that relate to this case.

I feel like the MO or psychological profile of a person who would poison a group of people at a lunch is different to the profile of a person who would attempt to kill their husband (or ex) many times over a period of time, as the Crown has alleged here. If this is real, if the judicial system does one day determine that these charges are legitimate, to me it would seem as if there were two people operating within one person, concurrently, if and when these horrific alleged events occurred.

IMHO

Just sharing some thoughts on the case. Ms. Patterson has presumption of innocence, and quite rightly so.

"I feel like the MO or psychological profile of a person who would poison a group of people at a lunch is different to the profile of a person who would attempt to kill their husband (or ex) many times over a period of time, as the Crown has alleged here. If this is real, if the judicial system does one day determine that these charges are legitimate, to me it would seem as if there were two people operating within one person, concurrently, if and when these horrific alleged events occurred."

I see it differently. I see it as ONE person, who attempted to get rid of her partner and failed. The poison was not strong enough, even after a few attempts.

So this same person moves on from nightshades to death caps. And her husband dropped out of the scheduled luncheon at the last minute. In her mind she had a solid plan to rid herself of her partner and her in-laws, in one fell swoop.

She was frustrated by her earlier attempts at murder and this time went all in. JMO

After he dropped out she was too invested in her mission. The Wellington was already prepared. She went for it anyway.

 

[jjleroche]

Well, for starters, he was in a coma in the ICU and had to undergo several unplanned procedures and a planned surgery. It seemed consistent with some bacterial infection at that time (C. Diff?), but a year later, he still had weakness in one arm. So paranoid or not, he had objective symptoms of a very serious illness.

I read only SP’s posts in a photographer’s journal when married to EP, and the eulogy he gave to parents. In the posts, he was not devoid of some funny, albeit slightly clumsy, sense of humor when complaining of EP’s anger. She didn’t like to be taken photos of, and his phrase “the reason I am still alive is because I don’t try” indicates the tendency to joke off when the situation is difficult. I can’t see much more, but I doubt he was that paranoid before he ended up on a ventilator for almost a month. This changes one’s outlook on life. And even after that, he wasn’t suspicious of EP, but then he felt unwell again. To me, EP seems rigid, unforgetting and overall, a “heavy person”, never letting things go. SP is sort of a lightweight compared to her. (BTW, in the “death wall” I see dad’s trait in the kids - using humor to deal with an uneasy situation.)

So of course, we don’t know much, but I think his suspiciousness developed over time. Whether validated or not, we don’t know, of course, and while I am very suspicious about the mushroom poisoning, SP’s case is 50/50.

Yes, SP's illness at the time did seem consistent with bacterial infection. IIRC Jepop noted photos were posted on SM of SP sitting alongside a lion which he'd killed on safari - and that if he had ingested any "meat" from the carcass (which is apparently often done when one is on safari) there would be a very high likelihood that very dangerous parasites would have entered his system and caused grave illness. FWIW. I haven't read anything specific regarding other possible attempted murders of SP. IMO JMO

 

[MsMarple]

Yes, SP's illness at the time did seem consistent with bacterial infection. IIRC Jepop noted photos were posted on SM of SP sitting alongside a lion which he'd killed on safari - and that if he had ingested any "meat" from the carcass (which is apparently often done when one is on safari) there would be a very high likelihood that very dangerous parasites would have entered his system and caused grave illness. FWIW. I haven't read anything specific regarding other possible attempted murders of SP. IMO JMO

No! SP photographed wild animals. He never killed any and never consumed wild animal meat.

This misinformation keeps coming up throughout the threads. He photographed the animals.

While Mr Patterson was on holiday in South Africa in January 2017, he made the comments about his 'favourite sayings' on Instagram next to a photograph of a leopard devouring a water buffalo in the famous Kruger National Park.

Instagram post of mushroom cook's husband about 'not getting caught'

A bizarre old Instagram post by the ex-husband of the beef wellington pie chef in the Death Cap mushroom tragedy about 'forgiveness' and 'not getting caught' has emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Kruger National Park prohibits hunting.

Hunting is prohibited in the area that is now the Kruger National Park | South African History Online

 

[Kemug]

Is it possible that EP allegedly planned to kill SP and his 4 relatives at the same time so that with SP dead, he would have no close family to claim his share of the property division? IANAL, or anything close to it, so have no idea if or how that would work. But maybe EP didn't either.

 

[katydid23]

Is it possible that EP allegedly planned to kill SP and his 4 relatives at the same time so that with SP dead, he would have no close family to claim his share of the property division? IANAL, or anything close to it, so have no idea if or how that would work. But maybe EP didn't either.

I think it was something like the above. I think it was also about the child custody though. I don't think she wanted the intrusion and undue influence from the in-laws. She wanted to raise them how she wanted without interference.

Also, she may have expected that the children would receive an inheritance if they were all declared dead. MOO

 

[Kemug]

EP is 40-something, right? Don't most murderers start earlier than that? (assuming she is guilty, that is)

 

[Lady Bug]

The motive is simple, and obvious, IMO. They were going through an upcoming divorce settlement. They had big issues to work out, like custody arrangements, property division and financial settlements. How much simpler would that be for her if her partner was erased?

I have never seen a report stating they had an upcoming divorce settlement. Is that assumed due to the fact they were separated or did I miss the report?

The property settlement took place in 2021 as reported by Candace Sutton in the Daily Mail in an article I have searched for but can no longer find. But there is this from The Age....

"While Patterson and her former husband Simon Patterson were previously the owners, public records show the property was transferred from joint ownership into Erin Patterson’s name alone in 2021."

Accused mushroom cook sells Mount Waverley townhouse

Alleged triple murderer Erin Patterson listed her three-bedroom house for about $1 million, but it sold before auction.

www.theage.com.au

Custody arrangements are made at the same time as property settlement I believe.

 

[katydid23]

I have never seen a report stating they had an upcoming divorce settlement. Is that assumed due to the fact they were separated or did I miss the report?

The property settlement took place in 2021 as reported by Candace Sutton in the Daily Mail in an article I have searched for but can no longer find. But there is this from The Age....

"While Patterson and her former husband Simon Patterson were previously the owners, public records show the property was transferred from joint ownership into Erin Patterson’s name alone in 2021."

Accused mushroom cook sells Mount Waverley townhouse

Alleged triple murderer Erin Patterson listed her three-bedroom house for about $1 million, but it sold before auction.

www.theage.com.au

Custody arrangements are made at the same time as property settlement I believe.

That simple sentence, that the one property was now in Erin's name, does not prove that all of their financial and child custody issues were permanently and legally settled. That home was left to her by her deceased mother---so it makes sense it would end up in her name.

This luncheon was originally reported as a negotiation and the 4 guests were to be mediators. Why would the separating couple need mediation if everything was all settled already? Every thing that I have read describes them as separated, not as divorced.

I do not believe that child custody final decisions are settled permanently until the divorce is finalised. JMO

 

[jjleroche]

I have never seen a report stating they had an upcoming divorce settlement. Is that assumed due to the fact they were separated or did I miss the report?

The property settlement took place in 2021 as reported by Candace Sutton in the Daily Mail in an article I have searched for but can no longer find. But there is this from The Age....

"While Patterson and her former husband Simon Patterson were previously the owners, public records show the property was transferred from joint ownership into Erin Patterson’s name alone in 2021."

Accused mushroom cook sells Mount Waverley townhouse

Alleged triple murderer Erin Patterson listed her three-bedroom house for about $1 million, but it sold before auction.

www.theage.com.au

Custody arrangements are made at the same time as property settlement I believe.

I have never seen a report stating they had an upcoming divorce settlement. Is that assumed due to the fact they were separated or did I miss the report?

The property settlement took place in 2021 as reported by Candace Sutton in the Daily Mail in an article I have searched for but can no longer find. But there is this from The Age....

"While Patterson and her former husband Simon Patterson were previously the owners, public records show the property was transferred from joint ownership into Erin Patterson’s name alone in 2021."

Accused mushroom cook sells Mount Waverley townhouse

Alleged triple murderer Erin Patterson listed her three-bedroom house for about $1 million, but it sold before auction.

www.theage.com.au

Custody arrangements are made at the same time as property settlement I believe.

Not necessarily IMO. Alternatives to court | Family Relationships Online

 

[jjleroche]

No! SP photographed wild animals. He never killed any and never consumed wild animal meat.

This misinformation keeps coming up throughout the threads. He photographed the animals.

While Mr Patterson was on holiday in South Africa in January 2017, he made the comments about his 'favourite sayings' on Instagram next to a photograph of a leopard devouring a water buffalo in the famous Kruger National Park.

Instagram post of mushroom cook's husband about 'not getting caught'

A bizarre old Instagram post by the ex-husband of the beef wellington pie chef in the Death Cap mushroom tragedy about 'forgiveness' and 'not getting caught' has emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Kruger National Park prohibits hunting.

Hunting is prohibited in the area that is now the Kruger National Park | South African History Online

I recall seeing a photo of SP on this forum, to which he had added text. The photo with accompanying text had initially been posted on Facebook IIRC. The text referred to a safari in which he was a participant, and implied that he had shot the big cat (I think I referred to the carcass as that of a lion, but clearly was mistaken.) IMO. I shall find the post and re-post. (I have no idea of the date of the event, or its location.)

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Did Erin ever go with him on these overseas jaunts or did she only get to look at photos of him enjoying himself.

And no, if she is guilty of anything, there is no excuse.

 

[katydid23]

EP is 40-something, right? Don't most murderers start earlier than that? (assuming she is guilty, that is)

Serial killers usually start earlier than their 40's.

But someone killing their family doesn't usually have any previous murders, from what I've seen here on this forum. People like Chris Watts, who killed his wife and kids for example.

It is a goal oriented killing, as opposed to someone who kills for the thrill or compulsion. JMO

 

[Lady Bug]

That simple sentence, that the one property was now in Erin's name, does not prove that all of their financial and child custody issues were permanently and legally settled. That home was left to her by her deceased mother---so it makes sense it would end up in her name.

No it doesn't prove anything. Unfortunately I couldn't find the article I wished to share which stated there was a property settlement in 2021.

"While Patterson and her former husband Simon Patterson were previously the owners, public records show the property was transferred from joint ownership into Erin Patterson’s name alone in 2021. The townhouse previously traded in 2019 for $931,000."

This paragraph from The Age media report is referring to the property at Mount Waverly which was purchased in 2019 in both Simon and Erin's names.... not the Eden NSW property which was left to Erin and her sister by their mother.

This luncheon was originally reported as a negotiation and the 4 guests were to be mediators.

Agree

Why would the separating couple need mediation if everything was all settled already? Every thing that I have read describes them as separated, not as divorced.

Agree... separated not divorced.
We haven't been told officially yet what the mediation or negotiation was about. It may not have been anything to do with property or custody arrangements which would normally be discussed between a husband and wife. Simon's Aunt and her Pastor husband Ian being included might suggest it was to do with a certain level of religion being maintained in the children's lives for example.

I do not believe that child custody final decisions are settled permanently until the divorce is finalised. JMO

I'm only going off what I've been told by couples who have been through it and it seems if there is a property settlement there is also a custody agreement at the same time. As they were separated there would have to be a custody agreement. I wasn't inferring it was a permanent decision.

It will be so helpful to have all the gaps filled in when the time comes.

 

[Lady Bug]

I recall seeing a photo of SP on this forum, to which he had added text. The photo with accompanying text had initially been posted on Facebook IIRC. The text referred to a safari in which he was a participant, and implied that he had shot the big cat (I think I referred to the carcass as that of a lion, but clearly was mistaken.) IMO. I shall find the post and re-post. (I have no idea of the date of the event, or its location.)

This is the article re the safari photo and Simon's Instagram comments.

Instagram post of mushroom cook's husband about 'not getting caught'

A bizarre old Instagram post by the ex-husband of the beef wellington pie chef in the Death Cap mushroom tragedy about 'forgiveness' and 'not getting caught' has emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Salah11]

Did Erin ever go with him on these overseas jaunts or did she only get to look at photos of him enjoying himself.

And no, if she is guilty of anything, there is no excuse.

What makes you believe she wanted to go on His safaris?

Just because you are married doesn’t mean you share the same interests or always want to do the same things.