Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #11

[petedavo.au]

2 things.

Firstly, why does there seem to be CCTV of JR but none of the first & third victims?

Second, and this isn't very nice, but as a teacher I've met a small handful of students who, at a young age, worry you that they could, potentially, develop into something like a SK, mainly because they have a complete and utter lack of empathy (you have to see it to believe it I'm afraid) but also because of an inability to form close/normal/productive bonds/r'ships with peers and or teachers.

IMO, what footage was released was to seek someone who could identify MM, and thus they could interview the last person recorded as interacting with her alive. Everyone else at the pub that night came forward and we're interviewed. It doesn't prove MM involved in abducting her, as it does not show that. It does not prove anything, but it's a line of inquiry to establish if MM could illuminate what comes next as MM from up the road might of seen where she went, or indeed interviewing him might of given detectives that MM might be a person of interest (POI) (Suspect). Now that BRE has been linked by DNA then this footage is maybe not so important anymore except if someone who knows BRE identifies that MM is BRE and thus further adds admissable evidence.

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[MrsNathanDrake]

I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

It seems like the attackers behave how they think they should behave (ie. the kissing/display of intimacy)?

Thank you. I think it was harder on my partner and family than it was on me, truthfully.

I think it's more to do with a kind of greed, wanting to do/touch/control every sexual thing. The other thing I remember is that his eyes were glazed over, it was so very creepy. He was almost looking past me like I wasn't there, even as he was trying to kiss me.

I think a murderer/rapist has a completely different mental state that is almost like they're a different person which is why it's so hard to connect them to the normal day-to-day person.

 

[tundrawolf]

I said my wife caught a lift with EE and BRE after a work function and I said my wife was young, blonde and gorgeous (my wife's words ha!).

I'm only responding here because someone copied and posted my BF post on this site.

My wife worked with EE at a law firm in the early 90's.

EE is not a lawyer she was a legal secretary. She does NOT look like any of the girls, she is of a different ethnicity or at least appears or appeared to my wife at the time. She was definitely not blonde. My wife told me what she thought her ethnicity is/was but I am not going to state it here.

Coincidentally in BRE's year 12 GSHS yearbook as has been mentioned previously, is a barrister who is married to a Supreme Court justice. This barrister I first met when she worked at the DPP but unbeknown to me until recently my wife also worked with at the same law firm that EE worked at and at the same time....as I mentioned in my BF post Perth is very small.

My wife stated that BRE was very quiet and she still can't grasp how he managed to get the women into his vehicle because according to her he just didn't have the charm to do so. However, she also stated that if she was on a night out and he offered her a lift she probably would have accepted it thinking that he was the husband of a work colleague and it would have been safe.


Also as an aside and as someone who sat on criminal trials for 15 years (in my previous working life) if I was a guilty person with lots of evidence against me I would choose a trial by jury everyday of the week. I've seen more guilty people be acquitted by a jury than I have seen not guilty people convicted! It does happen of course, but i'd fancy my chances with a jury over a judge alone.

 

[MrsNathanDrake]

I was just thinking about the JR/employee angle and while I don't think it is necessarily probable, I do think it is very possible and makes sense of some of her behaviour that some of us have found odd.

Maybe she's seen him the last few times she's been, there's always some chemistry, tonight she's getting strong vibes and decides to make a stronger play and hope he offers her a lift after work.

It would explain why she was quite happy for her friends to leave, why she was happy to let others get into a cab ahead of her, why she stayed in her 'good' outfit rather than putting on her jacket, why she was chatty and maybe mildly flirty, someone said she was speaking to the doorman too? I think it's possible she was trying to look alone and attractive and friendly and approachable, hoping the employee would take the opportunity to give her a lift. And if not, she would just take a taxi.

If that's the case, then how did the CSK take advantage of this situation? I haven't watched the cctv footage, it all sounds too confusing to me. But I gather JR looks up the street and by the next shot she has vanished? Could she have thought the employee was calling her over or had sent someone else to get her to meet him by the staff exit, for example? Maybe CSK relayed a message supposedly from the employee that he would get in trouble for fraternizing with patrons but to meet him around the corner at, for example, 12:15? Maybe CSK was being middle man, taking advantage of the way that staff are vaguely friendly with regular patrons to be like "*waves at employee* oh yeh, me and employee go way back, I reckon he likes you, let me go talk to him...... Oh yeh, he said to meet him at 12:15" or even "we're all going to X's house after here, employee will be there too"

A *lot* of extrapolation there, I know. Like I said, not probable but possible.

 

[123sniff]

I said my wife caught a lift with EE and BRE after a work function and I said my wife was young, blonde and gorgeous (my wife's words ha!).

I'm only responding here because someone copied and posted my BF post on this site.

My wife worked with EE at a law firm in the early 90's.

EE is not a lawyer she was a legal secretary. She does NOT look like any of the girls, she is of a different ethnicity or at least appears or appeared to my wife at the time. She was definitely not blonde. My wife told me what she thought her ethnicity is/was but I am not going to state it here.

Coincidentally in BRE's year 12 GSHS yearbook as has been mentioned previously, is a barrister who is married to a Supreme Court justice. This barrister I first met when she worked at the DPP but unbeknown to me until recently my wife also worked with at the same law firm that EE worked at and at the same time....as I mentioned in my BF post Perth is very small.

My wife stated that BRE was very quiet and she still can't grasp how he managed to get the women into his vehicle because according to her he just didn't have the charm to do so. However, she also stated that if she was on a night out and he offered her a lift she probably would have accepted it thinking that he was the husband of a work colleague and it would have been safe.


Also as an aside and as someone who sat on criminal trials for 15 years (in my previous working life) if I was a guilty person with lots of evidence against me I would choose a trial by jury everyday of the week. I've seen more guilty people be acquitted by a jury than I have seen not guilty people convicted! It does happen of course, but i'd fancy my chances with a jury over a judge alone.

Thanks tundrawolf, it was me who reposted your BF post on here. At the time it was quite a revelation that BRE had a first wife (EE) as nothing had been reported about her at that stage. I understood it was your wife who was blonde & gorgeous, as I'm sure she still is! Your insight and your wife's insight are invaluable - thank you for clarifying for everyone here.

 

[lampformypath]

This feels right on the mark to me. IMO JR was waiting in vain for VE (Vested Employee), whilst at the same time MM/CSK was trawling the dark corners of the streets waiting for a vulnerable female. Someone earlier mentioned the direction MM came from was an elevated footbridge, a perfect vantage point to select his prey. Her reaction to MM when he approaches is exactly how most girls would behave if they are trying to gain the attention of another male, as another poster noted 'look how funny, desirable etc I am to other men'. At some point she either gives up on waiting for VE, or VE gives her the slip and she makes her way across the road & down the street, possibly to catch a cab. There were possible sightings of her further down the road. IMO this is when MM/CSK made his move.

I saw a documentary about a decade ago about serial killers. They had random women walking across a screen & the convicted SK's had to pick out which ones they would select as victims. Although to the viewer, there was no noticeable differences between the women, the SK's all selected the same woman as their mark. It was then analysed, and concluded that because psychopaths develop into good readers of body language (due to lack of empathy), they have an innate ability to pick out the weak sheep from the flock.

Fascinating 123SNIFF, thank you, especially the last para about the serial killers being able to spot the vulnerable just by looking at them. They seem to have this "sense" inbuilt in them somehow, like someone who is a good hunter of animals ): If only they would use this "gift" to benefit society rather than rape and destroy young innocent women and devastate their families forever. There's no doubt a lot of "practise makes perfect" there too, if you concentrate on something and devote so much of your waking hours (and dreams no doubt too) in thinking and fantasising on a particular subject (the "conquering" of women, or men, not being sexist here) you'd get very good at it, sad to say. You know I've always been a non-blitz for JR but we should all keep our minds open (as many on here have rightly advised), and now I'm thinking the blitz is perhaps such a turn on for him, the thrill of the lunge to capture and overpower the victim, the struggling to get away, and then the eventual surrender to your brute force, all huge sexual buzzes for him, could be the only way he can actually get aroused is to play this out in some way? Wouldn't be surprised if ex-wives have had to submit to some sort of "rough play"? This could have been the reason for the breakdown of the marriages, the sexual role play getting taken too far/too cruel? Who knows what goes on behind closed doors and what people put up with for "love"?

 

[lampformypath]

these stills from the CCTV are a follow up to my original post #491

Toomanytoocount,
I was able to extract only 5frames per second on my device and I think there is now a better quality video than the one from which I sourced these frames.


1) Jane is aware of the man in the vest

2) a lovely smile from Jane as the vested man becomes aware that her gaze is on him.

3) subtle but definite eye to eye contact with vested man

After their eye contact, Jane's smile fades away as the vested man's focus shifts from her.
He waits at the door as theMM is seen to appear
Vested man then enters the hotel where (i have spec'd) he removes his work vest.


[emoji887]

Great work BReVeTTe, such clear images, like it's coming out of the murky darkness and we can finally see it clearly! You techno whizzes are bedazzling me!:great:Yep, see what you are getting at regarding JR and her "vested interest".

 

[123sniff]

Fascinating 123SNIFF, thank you, especially the last para about the serial killers being able to spot the vulnerable just by looking at them. They seem to have this "sense" inbuilt in them somehow, like someone who is a good hunter of animals ): If only they would use this "gift" to benefit society rather than rape and destroy young innocent women and devastate their families forever. There's no doubt a lot of "practise makes perfect" there too, if you concentrate on something and devote so much of your waking hours (and dreams no doubt too) in thinking and fantasising on a particular subject (the "conquering" of women, or men, not being sexist here) you'd get very good at it, sad to say. You know I've always been a non-blitz for JR but we should all keep our minds open (as many on here have rightly advised), and now I'm thinking the blitz is perhaps such a turn on for him, the thrill of the lunge to capture and overpower the victim, the struggling to get away, and then the eventual surrender to your brute force, all huge sexual buzzes for him, could be the only way he can actually get aroused is to play this out in some way? Wouldn't be surprised if ex-wives have had to submit to some sort of "rough play"? This could have been the reason for the breakdown of the marriages, the sexual role play getting taken too far/too cruel? Who knows what goes on behind closed doors and what people put up with for "love"?

I wish I could remember what doco it was because it was a real eye-opener. They only showed the women from the neck down, so the SK's were not reading facial expressions. When the criminologists replayed the women walking in slo-mo and presented the differences, they were barely discernible, such as a slight difference in the positioning of the shoulders, how they moved their hands when walking etc.
That's not to say a person who carries themselves with confidence is not at risk of attack, probably just less so.

 

[CuriousChum]

IMO, what footage was released was to seek someone who could identify MM, and thus they could interview the last person recorded as interacting with her alive. Everyone else at the pub that night came forward and we're interviewed. It doesn't prove MM involved in abducting her, as it does not show that. It does not prove anything, but it's a line of inquiry to establish if MM could illuminate what comes next as MM from up the road might of seen where she went, or indeed interviewing him might of given detectives that MM might be a person of interest (POI) (Suspect). Now that BRE has been linked by DNA then this footage is maybe not so important anymore except if someone who knows BRE identifies that MM is BRE and thus further adds admissable evidence.

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I think you are spot on and from WAPOLs perspective this was why the CCTV was released (and edited IMO).

However, I have felt a need to understand what transpired on the CCTV to get an understanding of who JR was communicating with, and likely intentions and direction.

I think through this process potentially some key things have been picked up, which may or may not be useable:

* Potential MM walking to and from JR had a gait, which bares a resemblance to BRE walk (great work by other member)
* Potential MM pacing up and down, could indicate state of mind
* A potential end point for JR (carpark behind Conti) and hence possible areas for scene of crime

All unknowns, but I believe discovered through detailed analysis of CCTV by large number sleuths

 

[lampformypath]

Or she'd be dismissive and show it to one of her mates, or leave it on a table, or hand it to security,or find a cop and give it to him/her. Given that one girl had been raped, one was missing and the town was on alert, I find it hard to imagine a serial killer wandering around handing out business cards.

Points taken, thank you. We all go off on tangents, I had just seen a programme about a serial killer who had used this as one of his methods. I then fixated on it, we all do it at some stage, I think. Each of us wants to help and bring something new to the table. Hear that noise? It's me going down in flames!

 

[Daddy Tas]

I said my wife caught a lift with EE and BRE after a work function and I said my wife was young, blonde and gorgeous (my wife's words ha!).

I'm only responding here because someone copied and posted my BF post on this site.

My wife worked with EE at a law firm in the early 90's.

EE is not a lawyer she was a legal secretary. She does NOT look like any of the girls, she is of a different ethnicity or at least appears or appeared to my wife at the time. She was definitely not blonde. My wife told me what she thought her ethnicity is/was but I am not going to state it here.

Coincidentally in BRE's year 12 GSHS yearbook as has been mentioned previously, is a barrister who is married to a Supreme Court justice. This barrister I first met when she worked at the DPP but unbeknown to me until recently my wife also worked with at the same law firm that EE worked at and at the same time....as I mentioned in my BF post Perth is very small.

My wife stated that BRE was very quiet and she still can't grasp how he managed to get the women into his vehicle because according to her he just didn't have the charm to do so. However, she also stated that if she was on a night out and he offered her a lift she probably would have accepted it thinking that he was the husband of a work colleague and it would have been safe.


Also as an aside and as someone who sat on criminal trials for 15 years (in my previous working life) if I was a guilty person with lots of evidence against me I would choose a trial by jury everyday of the week. I've seen more guilty people be acquitted by a jury than I have seen not guilty people convicted! It does happen of course, but i'd fancy my chances with a jury over a judge alone.

I think BE might have met CG on a previous occasion. I previously a few weeks ago that that barrister and BE were in the same year 12 class photo. Further, someone else in that same photo mentioned on the FB school reunion page (before that page was locked down) that that barrister and CG were in the same year of law together at UWA, and that CG had gone out 'with someone in our group at uni' or words to that effect.


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[lampformypath]

Only speaking from personal experience but when I had an incident where I was tied up, tortured and raped when I was younger, that person also tried to kiss me. It was very weird because the rest of it had definitely been very violent and controlling and this was very intimate and disgusting. Also much harder to deal with because the other stuff was easier to block out but hard to block what's literally happening right in front of your face.

Oh I'm so sorry for what happened to you MrsNathanDrake, what an horrendous ordeal you've been through thank you for your bravery in sharing this terrible trauma in your life and for giving me new understandings of how these hideous men behave. I pray they captured the man responsible and that he's going to spend a long time in jail. You're an amazing person to have survived and I'm sure continued to thrive after this harrowing event. May God bless you, always.

 

[Sutton]

Yes! And MM must have felt quite rejected when she turned her attention back to waiting for VE. MM then heads back up the street, around the corner and waits/watches. Interestingly JR watches him turn the corner, maybe she's making sure he's gone, he gave her the creeps? A fellow poster SKYZA cleverly identified this as MM by his distinctive gait (refer earlier posts in this thread).

Note: MM's legs are visible pacing back & forth at the corner of the street (top of screen) before and after his interaction with JR. I'm convinced these legs belong to MM based on the distinctive gait.

Actually, none of these are confirmed as MM. You can barely see anyone's gait in the CCTV, so it has definitely not been confirmed. No one heading up the street and around the corner has been confirmed as MM. We have no idea whose legs those are pacing back and forth.

CIA said every other person in the CCTV (in front of the Conti) was identified, except the person shown approaching Jane, who is referred to as MM. Every person in the video is not MM. You might think they are, and I might think they are, but your posts are misleading. Only the last sentence in your comment reads you think. The rest of the post states MM is seen throughout the footage.

 

[troumye]

A previous poster (around thread 5 or 6?) Said he got a lift with BRE and EE mid 90's i think....said EE was a good looker and blonde....

The poster said HIS wife got a lift with them,and that the poster's wife was goodlooking . No mention of EE's appearance at all.

 

[Lorinda]

But isn't vest guy right there in the same frame as MM?

 

[JoeDetective]

Also as an aside and as someone who sat on criminal trials for 15 years (in my previous working life) if I was a guilty person with lots of evidence against me I would choose a trial by jury everyday of the week. I've seen more guilty people be acquitted by a jury than I have seen not guilty people convicted! It does happen of course, but i'd fancy my chances with a jury over a judge alone.

As it stands there is only DNA evidence and car fibre evidence that could match thousands of other cars, trial by judge with proposal of any reasonable doubt seems a far easier avenue to me.

There is no accountability for the career of a jury member if they make the wrong call, there is for a judge who wrongly improsions someone who is subsequently cleared, which is why they are less likely to find someone guilty if there is even the smallest semebelence of doubt.

oh and welcome aboard, glad to have you here.

 

[ShellyGale]

That saying I live by comes to mind "Stand up for what you believe even if you are standing alone."
But okay, I don't want to get banned for talking about the 'S' word.

 

[Sutton]

I said my wife caught a lift with EE and BRE after a work function and I said my wife was young, blonde and gorgeous (my wife's words ha!).

I'm only responding here because someone copied and posted my BF post on this site.

My wife worked with EE at a law firm in the early 90's.

EE is not a lawyer she was a legal secretary. She does NOT look like any of the girls, she is of a different ethnicity or at least appears or appeared to my wife at the time. She was definitely not blonde. My wife told me what she thought her ethnicity is/was but I am not going to state it here.

Coincidentally in BRE's year 12 GSHS yearbook as has been mentioned previously, is a barrister who is married to a Supreme Court justice. This barrister I first met when she worked at the DPP but unbeknown to me until recently my wife also worked with at the same law firm that EE worked at and at the same time....as I mentioned in my BF post Perth is very small.

My wife stated that BRE was very quiet and she still can't grasp how he managed to get the women into his vehicle because according to her he just didn't have the charm to do so. However, she also stated that if she was on a night out and he offered her a lift she probably would have accepted it thinking that he was the husband of a work colleague and it would have been safe.


Also as an aside and as someone who sat on criminal trials for 15 years (in my previous working life) if I was a guilty person with lots of evidence against me I would choose a trial by jury everyday of the week. I've seen more guilty people be acquitted by a jury than I have seen not guilty people convicted! It does happen of course, but i'd fancy my chances with a jury over a judge alone.

Thanks, tundrawolf. I appreciate your wanting to protect EE's identity. Can you comment (on behalf of your wife) on EE's personality? Was she outgoing? Reserved? Outspoken? Ambitious? Maternal?

Does your wife remember anything else about B-rad, other than he was quiet, not necessarily charming, and she did not sense any danger from him? Can she say if he was handsome? Did he seem particularly interested/disinterested in his partner? Anything at all really.

It seems like there are just a few degrees of separation in Perth. Thanks to your wife for any opionion she might offer. (If I'm reading your post correctly, you did not meet EE. If you did, please include your opinions as well.)

 

[123sniff]

Thanks, tundrawolf. I appreciate your wanting to protect EE's identity. Can you comment (on behalf of your wife) on EE's personality? Was she outgoing? Reserved? Outspoken? Ambitious? Maternal?

Does your wife remember anything else about B-rad, other than he was quiet, not necessarily charming, and she did not sense any danger from him? Can she say if he was handsome? Did he seem particularly interested/disinterested in his partner? Anything at all really.

It seems like there are just a few degrees of separation in Perth. Thanks to your wife for any opionion she might offer. (If I'm reading your post correctly, you did not meet EE. If you did, please include your opinions as well.)

Actually, none of these are confirmed as MM. You can barely see anyone's gait in the CCTV, so it has definitely not been confirmed. No one heading up the street and around the corner has been confirmed as MM. We have no idea whose legs those are pacing back and forth.

CIA said every other person in the CCTV (in front of the Conti) was identified, except the person shown approaching Jane, who is referred to as MM. Every person in the video is not MM. You might think they are, and I might think they are, but your posts are misleading. Only the last sentence in your comment reads you think. The rest of the post states MM is seen throughout the footage.

Oh my goodness Sutton, I apologise for misleading you. If you'd read previous posts, you would see that we were brainstorming on possible scenarios of the CCTV footage.

Note my original post with Tundrawolf's BF post he does describe both BRE & EE in more detail from his wife's perspective.

IMO

 

[123sniff]

But isn't vest guy right there in the same frame as MM?

Yes he is IMO