Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[delbertGrady]

Hi everyone,

im feeling disappointed that the 20 year anniversary of SS disappearing has come and gone without a breakthrough. sigh.

a (few)question for anyone with martial arts knowledge, How common/ uncommon would a martial are expert be in Perth, or in the western suburbs? Could there be a thousands considered 'experts' just in Perth? Or just a small number? Is someone with a black belt considered an expert?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Hi everyone,

im feeling disappointed that the 20 year anniversary of SS disappearing has come and gone without a breakthrough. sigh.

a (few)question for anyone with martial arts knowledge, How common/ uncommon would a martial are expert be in Perth, or in the western suburbs? Could there be a thousands considered 'experts' just in Perth? Or just a small number? Is someone with a black belt considered an expert?

You never know as the media are often quite flexible with the wording they use but my take would be to be an expert a black belt would be an absolute minimum but not all black belts would be an expert. Plenty would have black belts and have have been dormant for a number of years so therefore wouldn't be an expert.

If you're going to to choose to describe someone and use "martial arts expert" you'd expect this is a major part of that person's make up. So instructor level or up basically. A complete guess but maybe 3 or 400 across Perth. Complete guess though.

 

[delbertGrady]

You never know as the media are often quite flexible with the wording they use but my take would be to be an expert a black belt would be an absolute minimum but not all black belts would be an expert. Plenty would have black belts and have have been dormant for a number of years so therefore wouldn't be an expert.

If you're going to to choose to describe someone and use "martial arts expert" you'd expect this is a major part of that person's make up. So instructor level or up basically. A complete guess but maybe 3 or 400 across Perth. Complete guess though.

Thanks, that makes sense, instructor level. So not too common.
Although If, say.... LW had a black belt from years ago, I imagine that would be good enough for the police or media to add 'martial arts expert' to the list of incriminating facts about him, and maybe it would even bump public servant off of his title position.
public servant. I believe a police officer is also a public servant. Very vague description.
I don't personally think JM is MAE.. Wealthy English family... Scarborough high, doesn't seem to fit to me, there must be quite a few other MAE's around.

 

[CSK?]

I don't care what anyone says common sense dictates that JudoMan is the MAE. I mean how many martial arts experts did some of these guys know? too much of a coincidence that there is a MAE as a POI and the family have close ties to someone considered a MAE. Time to lay the facts on the table about Judoman and decide once and for all if he is worth discussing as a group, I think he is the MAE but if anyone can provide evidence to suggest otherwise then I am all ears.

Now if Judoman is the MAE mentioned in news reports this alone doesn't make him in any way guilty of any crime, but there is nothing to lose from discussing him as in depth as other suspects and POI's. It will either help dig up material against him or find nothing at which point we move on.

I have not been a part of any private conversation in regards to Judoman but if anyone has any info that they still don't want to talk about in the public domain then feel free to message me.

 

[papertrail]

The word 'expert' was NEVER used. The word 'PRACTITIONER' was used -- a well educated martial arts PRACTITIONER.

A practitioner is someone that merely 'practices'. If there was a martial artist expert involved, I am sure that word expert would have been used instead of practitioner.

Stop narrowing the focus down to one form of martial arts. Have a look at the various forms of martial arts. I'd be checking out the martial arts connections to WA University given that the martial arts practitioner was also described as well educated. Here is a link that will take you to all 'sports orientated' clubs associated with UWA Sports for 2015. I note there are
7 such arts that are described as martial arts. The UWA has a specific venue named UWA Martial Arts Centre and all of these 7 listed on the UWA website practice out of the UWA Martial Arts Centre.
http://www.sport.uwa.edu.au/clubs#contact

Aikido https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobudō
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo

I would also be considering what martial arts were popular (in Western Australia) between say late 1980s to mid 1990s -- given the person worked with Sarah and was well educated, a Uni degree would take several years.

Look for someone THAT WORKED CLOSELY WITH SARAH SPIERS -- she worked for BSD Consultants; they were based at 2 Bagot Road Subiaco immediately opposite Kings Park. Given that police detectives obviously looked very closely at an individual Sarah worked with -- and found enough for them to include information about this individual in the CIA documentary, I would perhaps be checking to see if someone 'took flight' from BSD around 1996. Look for somebody that perhaps had a small child in 1996 and that is why he perhaps had MET JANE RIMMER ONCE -- through the child care centre. Look at the sports that Jane Rimmer used to follow ie football and hockey -- Ciara had also been involved with hockey. Was Sarah ever involved in hockey personally, or did she know someone that was ?

The person you refer to on here NEVER worked closely with Sarah Spiers. Simple as that. Sarah Spiers was a secretary -- did this work involve working with a group of people or did her work involve secretarial support for only one person ? I have always found when comparing Sarah with her sister Amanda, that their physical appearance was almost identical. Amanda attended Uni and I believe completed a teaching degree. Was there anyone in her background that could be responsible ?

This link will give you an idea of what BSD Consultants used to do http://trove.nla.gov.au/people/468990?c=people

http://www.australianexporters.net/companyID1229.htm

Simple really.

 

[delbertGrady]

I don't care what anyone says common sense dictates that JudoMan is the MAE. I mean how many martial arts experts did some of these guys know? too much of a coincidence that there is a MAE as a POI and the family have close ties to someone considered a MAE. Time to lay the facts on the table about Judoman and decide once and for all if he is worth discussing as a group, I think he is the MAE but if anyone can provide evidence to suggest otherwise then I am all ears.

Now if Judoman is the MAE mentioned in news reports this alone doesn't make him in any way guilty of any crime, but there is nothing to lose from discussing him as in depth as other suspects and POI's. It will either help dig up material against him or find nothing at which point we move on.

I have not been a part of any private conversation in regards to Judoman but if anyone has any info that they still don't want to talk about in the public domain then feel free to message me.

I haven't heard anything privately about JM. I would also be interested to know if there is any compelling information about him either way.

i think that since the rimmer family had a connection to JM, that connection could have been where she met this other MAE/MAP suspect, eg JM had a party or dinner and one or many of his martial arts friends were there. She may have come into contact to others in his community, she may have known other people who practised martial arts completely not connected to him.

 

[delbertGrady]

The word 'expert' was NEVER used. The word 'PRACTITIONER' was used -- a well educated martial arts PRACTITIONER.

A practitioner is someone that merely 'practices'. If there was a martial artist expert involved, I am sure that word expert would have been used instead of practitioner.

Stop narrowing the focus down to one form of martial arts. Have a look at the various forms of martial arts. I'd be checking out the martial arts connections to WA University given that the martial arts practitioner was also described as well educated. Here is a link that will take you to all 'sports orientated' clubs associated with UWA Sports for 2015. I note there are
7 such arts that are described as martial arts. The UWA has a specific venue named UWA Martial Arts Centre and all of these 7 listed on the UWA website practice out of the UWA Martial Arts Centre.
http://www.sport.uwa.edu.au/clubs#contact

Aikido https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobudō
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo

I would also be considering what martial arts were popular (in Western Australia) between say late 1980s to mid 1990s -- given the person worked with Sarah and was well educated, a Uni degree would take several years.

Look for someone THAT WORKED CLOSELY WITH SARAH SPIERS -- she worked for BSD Consultants; they were based at 2 Bagot Road Subiaco immediately opposite Kings Park. Given that police detectives obviously looked very closely at an individual Sarah worked with -- and found enough for them to include information about this individual in the CIA documentary, I would perhaps be checking to see if someone 'took flight' from BSD around 1996. Look for somebody that perhaps had a small child in 1996 and that is why he perhaps had MET JANE RIMMER ONCE -- through the child care centre. Look at the sports that Jane Rimmer used to follow ie football and hockey -- Ciara had also been involved with hockey. Was Sarah ever involved in hockey personally, or did she know someone that was ?

The person you refer to on here NEVER worked closely with Sarah Spiers. Simple as that. Sarah Spiers was a secretary -- did this work involve working with a group of people or did her work involve secretarial support for only one person ? I have always found when comparing Sarah with her sister Amanda, that their physical appearance was almost identical. Amanda attended Uni and I believe completed a teaching degree. Was there anyone in her background that could be responsible ?

This link will give you an idea of what BSD Consultants used to do http://trove.nla.gov.au/people/468990?c=people

http://www.australianexporters.net/companyID1229.htm

Simple really.

Thank you for that information paper trail, and for clarifying the description of the martial arts ' practitioner'. It is quite a broad description.

 

[Bartholemeus]

The word 'expert' was NEVER used. The wo 'PRACTITIONER' was used -- a well educated martial arts PRACTITIONER.

A practitioner is someone that merely 'practices'. If there was a martial artist expert involved, I am sure that word expert would have been used instead of practitioner.

Does this mean Judoman is not "MAP" (Martial Arts Practitioner)? No it doesn't. At this point in time the evidence points towards MAP most likely being Judoman. That doesn't mean it's definitely him, just very likely. Why you are happy to assume it's definitely not him is beyond me. Why you feel you need to shut down everytime someone brings it up is interesting. You don't have a problem telling everyone RZ got a penis enlargement but the minute people talk about Judoman you go into Defcon 5 defence mode. Why is that?

I'd be checking out the martial arts connections to WA University given that the martial arts practitioner was also described as well educated.

Did that. Guess what happened? Found out he practises there and went to UWA at same time as CG.

I would also be considering what martial arts were popular (in Western Australia) between say late 1980s to mid 1990s -- given the person worked with Sarah and was well educated, a Uni degree would take several years.

Judo was one of them. There was a judo centre at Swanbourne across from the train station that he was known to frequent.

Entirely circumstantial of course but there were 2 rapes committed near the train station.

Look for someone THAT WORKED CLOSELY WITH SARAH SPIERS -- she worked for BSD Consultants; they were based at 2 Bagot Road Subiaco immediately opposite Kings Park.

Do you or do you not have proof he didnt work with her closely? How do you know she didnt work somewhere else previously?

The person you refer to on here NEVER worked closely with Sarah Spiers. Simple as that.

proof please.

Simple really.

Perhaps if you are so certain MAP is someone else then you have a person in mind?

Happy to change my view but need to be shown something more compelling than what you have provided.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Look for somebody that perhaps had a small child in 1996 and that is why he perhaps had MET JANE RIMMER ONCE -- through the child care centre. Look at the sports that Jane Rimmer used to follow ie football and hockey -- Ciara had also been involved with hockey. Was Sarah ever involved in hockey personally, or did she know someone that was ?

Or hypothetically maybe MAP met JR because his wife lived across the road from the Rimmers when he was courting her (his wife that is)?

So a guy has a girlfriend that he goes on to marry. She lives directly across the road from the Rimmers. Is it more likely he's met her a couple of times, or is it more likely he was so close to the family that when the CIA doco came up they thought he was the best guy to comment on Jane?

Apparently MAP lived locally, had English parents and came from a wealthy family.

It has been confirmed that he lived locally, has English parents, is a MAP, and was approximately the same age. It is unconfirmed if he is from a wealthy family but there are and were some expensive houses up on the hill just south of scarborough.

None of us know if Judoman is MAP but you seem to imply you have evidence he's not. You're trying very hard to convince us he's not but the evidence you have supplied is far from compelling.

 

[papertrail]

I haven't heard anything privately about JM. I would also be interested to know if there is any compelling information about him either way.

i think that since the rimmer family had a connection to JM, that connection could have been where she met this other MAE/MAP suspect, eg JM had a party or dinner and one or many of his martial arts friends were there. She may have come into contact to others in his community, she may have known other people who practised martial arts completely not connected to him.

I think it better if you rephrase "i think that since the rimmer family had a connection to JM," to read -- I think that since Jane Rimmer met the martial arts practitioner once..."

 

[papertrail]

Or hypothetically maybe MAP met JR because his wife lived across the road from the Rimmers when he was courting her (his wife that is)?

So a guy has a girlfriend that he goes on to marry. She lives directly across the road from the Rimmers. Is it more likely he's met her a couple of times, or is it more likely he was so close to the family that when the CIA doco came up they thought he was the best guy to comment on Jane?

Apparently MAP lived locally, had English parents and came from a wealthy family.

It has been confirmed that he lived locally, has English parents, is a MAP, and was approximately the same age. It is unconfirmed if he is from a wealthy family but there are and were some expensive houses up on the hill just south of scarborough.

None of us know if Judoman is MAP but you seem to imply you have evidence he's not. You're trying very hard to convince us he's not but the evidence you have supplied is far from compelling.

I cannot understand why you have come up with an hypothesis about the wife living over the road -- makes absolutely no sense at all.

Martial arts practitioner lived locally nearby to Claremont.

What, wait. You supply the evidence then, that the person you refer to as JM, worked closely with Sarah Spiers. I look forward to reading that in the very near future.

I wouldn't call the suburb of Scarborough close to Claremont either -- 11.6kms according to google earth calcs. And he was listed on 1st listing on electoral roll as a carpenter; not what I would expect as a son of wealthy english family.

 

[papertrail]

Reading the coroner inquest report re Sarah McMahon I also see that Morey had told many people he was ex SAS -- and we know that is total BS. But what this shows me is buried in that smokescreen may be a little hint about him; SAS are well trained in many forms of martial arts -- perhaps he has had some sort of training in fitness regimes whilst on the inside.

His parents never lived in Claremont locale or nearby though and Morey would not be what I would classify as 'well educated' -- university of life more like it.

 

[papertrail]

Does this mean Judoman is not "MAP" (Martial Arts Practitioner)? No it doesn't. At this point in time the evidence points towards MAP most likely being Judoman. That doesn't mean it's definitely him, just very likely. Why you are happy to assume it's definitely not him is beyond me. Why you feel you need to shut down everytime someone brings it up is interesting. You don't have a problem telling everyone RZ got a penis enlargement but the minute people talk about Judoman you go into Defcon 5 defence mode. Why is that?


Did that. Guess what happened? Found out he practises there and went to UWA at same time as CG.

Judo was one of them. There was a judo centre at Swanbourne across from the train station that he was known to frequent.

Entirely circumstantial of course but there were 2 rapes committed near the train station.

Do you or do you not have proof he didnt work with her closely? How do you know she didnt work somewhere else previously?

proof please.

Perhaps if you are so certain MAP is someone else then you have a person in mind?

Happy to change my view but need to be shown something more compelling than what you have provided.

You see -- here you go again. I NEVER SAID THAT RZ HAD A PENIS ENLARGEMENT -- I SAID ENHANCEMENT. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

And I do not go into defence mode at all about the person you refer to as JM -- in fact, I would be doing quite the opposite if there is any evidence at all that he worked at the same place as Sarah Spiers and it was proven he had a close working relationship with her. That is the 1st step in proving anything in your argument that you should be looking at. The mere fact that he had appeared on CIA doc talking about Jane Rimmer, and the mere fact the he is an EXPERT as Judo, in no way makes him a martial arts practitioner -- which in my mind, a martial arts practitioner would be someone that took part in some form of the art as a fitness regime.

Open up your mind and take of your blinkers.

Just because he may have attended UWA at the same time as CG means nothing. How many other people attended uni at the same time as CG that also could be described as a martial arts practitioner ? The POI doesn't necessarily have had attended uni at the same time as CG either.

Provide the proof that the person you refer to as JM attended the Swanbourne centre you are referring to -- or is this just unfounded rumour ?

I know SS didn't work elsewhere previously due to the fact it is mentioned in many articles that where she worked as her 1st job.

You are the one arguing that the person you refer to as JM worked with Sarah Spiers due to the fact you keep on and on about him being the POI referred to in the CIA doc. You therefore, need to supply something to support your argument.

 

[*Indigo*]

aimtosolve I hope you don't mind but I would like to reiterate your post by quoting it:

"The offender of these crimes is someone not known to Special Crime Squad, and was not a suspect as part of any Macro task project.

Police are still interviewing suspects to this day, giving structured interviews and gathering DNA samples. They are acting off tip offs given through the crime stoppers network. If suspicious people are reported for a moderately good reason, there is a good chance they may be spoken to by investigators. To be productive, look into businesses in Claremont and neighbouring suburbs which may have had people working for them during that period that match the profile released by Police.

Everytime I hear the word "Judoman", I cringe. He is not a suspect and never was a suspect. SD is a financial consultant and was a family friend to the Rimmers. He did not know Sarah Spiers, and is not the 34 year old student mentioned in the CIA documentary."

aimtosolve you seem to be in the know and this information is very interesting, I thought it deserved a reposting.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I cannot understand why you have come up with an hypothesis about the wife living over the road -- makes absolutely no sense at all.

Really? Do I need to spell it out?

Martial arts practitioner lived locally nearby to Claremont.

Yup. That narrows the field considerably.

What, wait. You supply the evidence then, that the person you refer to as JM, worked closely with Sarah Spiers. I look forward to reading that in the very near future.

I have never claimed I have evidence they worked closely together. I have also never claimed that Judoman is definitely MAP. You on the other hand have claimed you know for a fact that they never worked together and that Judoman isn't MAP.

That makes the obligation on you to provide evidence to back up your claims.

I wouldn't call the suburb of Scarborough close to Claremont either -- 11.6kms according to google earth calcs. And he was listed on 1st listing on electoral roll as a carpenter; not what I would expect as a son of wealthy english family.

What makes you think he lived in Scarborough at the time of the killings?

 

[papertrail]

Really? Do I need to spell it out?

Yup. That narrows the field considerably.


I have never claimed I have evidence they worked closely together. I have also never claimed that Judoman is definitely MAP. You on the other hand have claimed you know for a fact that they never worked together and that Judoman isn't MAP.

That makes the obligation on you to provide evidence to back up your claims.

What makes you think he lived in Scarborough at the time of the killings?

YOU (have for months now) continually have claimed that the man that appeared on the CIA documentary talking about Jane, is the man that is later referred to in the CIA documentary as a martial arts practitioner (you referred to what was said in the CIA doc as 'expert') when in fact the word expert was NEVER used.

Therefore you are totally ignoring the fact that in order to support your claim, you need to come up with a valid argument that this man worked closely with Sarah Spiers. By you continually putting your case, it is therefore your argument that JM worked with Sarah Spiers closely. Then provide the proof of that.

 

[Bartholemeus]

playing devil's advocate to the theory that the Martial Arts Practitioner is Judoman, would the police really put a possible suspect on a national television special talking about one of his presumed victims?

**** yeah!

I can't think of any other crime investigations as serious as this where police have put a main suspect on television in this manner, does anyone know of any?

Happens all the time.

Example: Gerard Bayden-Clay

 

[*Indigo*]

playing devil's advocate to the theory that the Martial Arts Practitioner is not Judoman, would the police really put a possible suspect on a national television special talking about one of his presumed victims? Wouldn't this really prejudice any future trial... if it turned out police found enough evidence to believe that he was the CSK and he appeared in court for the murders?
I can't think of any other crime investigations as serious as this where police have put a possible suspect on television in this manner, completely identifying him and have him talk about one of his victims, does anyone know of any? (I'm not saying it couldn't happen)
I'm just keeping my mind open about this question and just looking at possibilities here, I thought aimtosolves post was very interesting, is it possible that the facts that seem to indicate it is him are just coincidences?

 

[Bartholemeus]

YOU (have for months now) continually have claimed that the man that appeared on the CIA documentary talking about Jane, is the man that is later referred to in the CIA documentary as a martial arts practitioner (you referred to what was said in the CIA doc as 'expert') when in fact the word expert was NEVER used.

You should post where I said this.

 

[papertrail]

playing devil's advocate to the theory that the Martial Arts Practitioner is Judoman, would the police really put a possible suspect on a national television special talking about one of his presumed victims? Wouldn't this really prejudice any future trial... if it turned out police found enough evidence to believe that he was the CSK and he appeared in court for the murders ???
I can't think of any other crime investigations as serious as this where police have put a main suspect on television in this manner, does anyone know of any?

Exactly.

I wonder if Clare was into martial arts at all. The photos released in the UK at the time of his trial there, he looked pretty fit.

There is something very interesting going on behind the scenes re the evil guy convicted of the Morecombe murder. Looks as though he has a legal team about to launch a High Court appeal and it has something to do with the way the police obtained the evidence through the inquest not being 'fair' to him.