Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Parkie]

I know exactly where Garden Island is - visited family there many times...in the navy ship ahoy.

But how did you know that any of the Claremontghost images depicted Garden Island ?

In the Navy Ship Ahoy? Please explain Papertrail?

 

[enzeder]

How do I block someones comments from showing up on here?

Top of page: Click on Forum Actions > General Settings > My Settings > Edit Ignore List..

 

[J35]

Associating/relating your victims with/to your new daughter could be enough to stop, in conjunction with fear of DNA (future crimes) and/or being on the police radar?

 

[billywhizz]

Born 1960 add 34 equals 1994. Ruled out as being the martial arts practitioner. .. simple as that.

Papertrail - hypothetical: if you came across someone that fit the martial arts practitioner description from CIA doco in every way, but was born in 1960, would you rule them out?

If they were born in December 1960, this would make them 34 years old at the time of the Karrakatta attack in 1995. And 35yo on 26 Jan and 9 June 1996.

So, to reiterate, would you rule someone out because of a one/two month discrepancy?

Thanks

 

[enzeder]

Associating/relating your victims with/to your new daughter could be enough to stop, in conjunction with fear of DNA (future crimes) and/or being on the police radar?

Quite possible J35.

Excerpt:

Serial Murder
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

Myth: Serial killers cannot stop killing.

It has been widely believed that once serial killers start killing, they cannot stop. There are, however, some serial killers who stop murdering altogether before being caught. In these instances, there are events or circumstances in offenders’ lives that inhibit them from pursuing more victims. These can include increased participation in family activities, sexual substitution, and other diversions.

 

[J35]

In the USA, A full dna profile consists of 13 loci (STRs) or 26 alleles, with 15 or more alleles being cause for familial DNA testing.

References:
"The DNA "partial match" will result when the profile shares at least 15 STR (Short Tandem Repeat) alleles with a different but potentially related offender profile"
from http://www.dnaforensics.com/StatesAndFamilialSearches.aspx (has familial DNA case examples)

"A perfect hit will be obtained if all 26 allelesmatch a DNA profile in the database, indicating that the DNA sample is from the same person. But if a partial match occurs on at least 15 or more alleles then this could indicate that a close relative left the sample at the crime scene."
from http://www.dnaforensics.com/familialsearches.aspx

and if you want to know more about probabilities in DNA profiling + another source for 26 alleles then this is a reputable paper on the subject
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585748/

EDIT::: I am unable to find references to Familial DNA testing in the claremont case (other than BF).. if someone has the link or the article that would be great... it would support my DNA profile example on page 31 post 439

 

[Bartholemeus]

I've quoted my first comment here from 4 months ago. Since then, two ideas have come to light as features of this discussion: there are claims that police have DNA and that the Karakatta case is linked. My perspective has changed based on these new ideas and the opinions I've read here since then.

My Profile of the CSK
I think he's someone with an "outsider's connection" to Claremont. This is a nice area and he is someone who experienced it as a teacher's son or a cabdriver or a janitor. Or simply a resident of a nearby, less-posh community. He may not be a native of Perth but I still believe that he must have lived there for a very long time to be familiar with all of those dump sites as well as the night clubs.

New Ideas

1. I still think there is no way that the killer knew the victims. He may have coincidentally known one, but it had nothing to do with his opportunistic selection process. He could not have predicted that these three particular girls would suddenly leave their groups on each of those nights. And I stand by my logic in favor of a cab driver in my previous post. I have, however, come to believe that a blitz attack was possible and is as likely as a cabdriver in terms of explaining these crimes. I don't think anything else is likely -- see my explanation in my first post. The girls were all waiting for cabs... Their homes weren't en route to normal destinations so any 'good Samaritan' pickup act would have been transparent... Maybe the CSK even specifically planned to catch girls as they were waiting for cabs. Maybe that's something he noticed frequently and saw as an opportunity.

2. I no longer think the CSK stopped because he was investigated. In retrospect it's kind of obvious that he couldn't possibly have committed a 4th murder at the same building under the circumstances... He either stopped because he didn't want to figure out a new means, or he started killing in a new area. I still think the odds of a family change or imprisonment are slim given that the crimes were committed over such a short period of time (vs longer, which would result in a higher likelihood that his life had fundamentally changed).

3. The Police... I think WAPOL/SCS/Macro is beyond neglect for not releasing more details or being more forthright about the information they have. I would like to hear one example of information about the crime scene, related to the perpetrator, that would make sense to keep private at this point. I don't believe in any corruption-oriented conspiracy theories, but I believe in stupidity, ignorance, arrogance and lack of foresight. I do think this case would be solved in 2016 if the police released 100% of their information. I'm not saying websleuths would solve it, but it would be solved.

4. Karrakatta proves that the killer used a blitz attack.

5. Mystery Man (MM) is not connected to the crime. How would that timeline work? Does he jog to his car? Does he show up to the club in one murder and switch to a different MO I. the others? Is he conspicuously in the club on the nights of all 3 murders? Chances are slim that this was the case.

New Questions

1. Other than Karrakatta, what Perth crime do you believe is most likely to have been the CSK? What is the most important thing that crime tells us about him?

2. What is the longest time period in another case that a body has laid out and still had recoverable DnA evidence? Can anyone name cases like this one where the bodies were lost for weeks in bad conditions and the perpetrator's evidence was still recovered?

3. Does Judoman's (JM) age align with the CIA doc since Karrakatta was actually earlier than the other crimes? Would someone please PM me with whatever has been discussed privately about him?

4. Does Perth have a registry of sex offenders comparable to an American city?

Lastly, I would like to thank aim2solve, Bartholemeus, Sutton, BillyWhizz, J35, 88mph, papertrail and parkie for their consistent and excellent contributions.

Great post.

I'm thinking this;

My Profile of the CSK - maybe. My favoured profile is still local guy (western suburbs), 25-40, professional worker, normal guy who blends in

I still think there is no way that the killer knew the victims. - I also think this is unlikely

I no longer think the CSK stopped because he was investigated. - I still think this is a good chance. It all comes down to DNA. If they have DNA then it's someone off our radar and potentially off the police's as well. He might be way down their pecking order or never was on their list. If we could get confirmation that they had DNA it would make things a bit clearer.

Karrakatta proves that the killer used a blitz attack. - I don't know about this. There has to be a good chance that CSK and Karra are same guy, but not definite. But the CSK abductions are more likely pick ups. He could have changed his abduction MO between Karra and SS. He may have mixed it up and used whatever appropriate on the night.

Mystery Man (MM) is not connected to the crime. - I too don't believe he's involved.

Other than Karrakatta, what Perth crime do you believe is most likely to have been the CSK? What is the most important thing that crime tells us about him? - hard to say. At least a 1 but probably 3 or 4 and maybe more. the Cott Hotel/Lakeway Drive in is likely for me.

 

[J35]

4. Does Perth have a registry of sex offenders comparable to an American city?

Better, WA is able to publicly name sex-offenders
Databases here https://www.communityprotection.wa.gov.au/
and also one here http://www.mako.org.au/temp_wa.html

 

[enzeder]

References:
"The DNA "partial match" will result when the profile shares at least 15 STR (Short Tandem Repeat) alleles with a different but potentially related offender profile"
from http://www.dnaforensics.com/StatesAndFamilialSearches.aspx (has familial DNA case examples)

"A perfect hit will be obtained if all 26 allelesmatch a DNA profile in the database, indicating that the DNA sample is from the same person. But if a partial match occurs on at least 15 or more alleles then this could indicate that a close relative left the sample at the crime scene."
from http://www.dnaforensics.com/familialsearches.aspx

and if you want to know more about probabilities in DNA profiling + another source for 26 alleles then this is a reputable paper on the subject
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585748/

EDIT::: I am unable to find references to Familial DNA testing in the claremont case (other than BF).. if someone has the link or the article that would be great... it would support my DNA profile example on page 31 post 439

BBM

Familial DNA testing mentioned on page 92 in this article.

Serial killer net tightens By BRET CHRISTIAN
March 21, 2015: http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20150321/pdf/paper.pdf

 

[CSK?]

You know we all exist in this little bubble of a great society, but when you truly start digging it's amazing how many psycho sexual predators and killers are out there.

Now I have a question: Does anyone know of a website that allows you to search all criminal convictions from the WA courts?

 

[papertrail]

Papertrail you drip. It`s the biggest island in the vicinity. You can`t miss it & it is so recognisable. There are plenty of lights out there. It was not Penguin or Carnac island. Now someone in a blog mentioned that a Euro guy tried faking an English accent & he was in Claremont. I`m trying to find that comment. Sorry no idea it was a guy videoing driving around. Just a guess it was.

Absolutely NO need for your offensive comment. I know all about Garden Island but you seem to be trying to dodge answering my query re HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS GARDEN ISLAND when all that apparently can be seen on the video is darkness and a couple or a few lights. It could be anywhere (I've been told) but you insist it was Garden Island --- why ?

 

[papertrail]

He said he was real busy. Trying to help him out so he can spend 15mins going up Stirling Hwy on google st view.

And you really consider the federation house was on Stirling Highway -- how so when there is NO information that states that ?

 

[papertrail]

You mean me CSK? Anyways the island had plenty of lights in Claremont Ghosts videos. Maybe it was Rottnest Island? but I can tell you it was a long island. Someone who is free for time might try to find the comment where a guy posting as an English guy where as he had a Euro accent. I know the SCS have no idea atm. They offloaded Stanbury. Ok he had a damn good go at this. But the SCS have to look outside the square. That is where we come in. Excluding some of you...of course..

They haven't 'offloaded' Stanbury at all. Given the investigation is honing in on forensics it is VERY interesting what his current position is - FORENSICS

 

[papertrail]

Papertrail - hypothetical: if you came across someone that fit the martial arts practitioner description from CIA doco in every way, but was born in 1960, would you rule them out?

If they were born in December 1960, this would make them 34 years old at the time of the Karrakatta attack in 1995. And 35yo on 26 Jan and 9 June 1996.

So, to reiterate, would you rule someone out because of a one/two month discrepancy?

Thanks

You need to be more accurate with your hypothetical question. The attached will make what I say perfectly clear !

 

[billywhizz]

And you really consider the federation house was on Stirling Highway -- how so when there is NO information that states that ?

BECAUSE. THIS. ARTICLE. MENTIONS. A. FEDERATION. HOUSE. ON. STIRLING. HIGHWAY.

AND. A. COMMODORE.

AND. IT. CAME. OUT. A FEW. WEEKS. BEFORE. THE. COMMODORE. ARTICLE.

I. ASKED. PARKIE. IF. HE. COULD. CHECK. IF. HE. RECOGNISES. THE. ONE. FROM. THE. VIDEO. ON. STIRLING. HWY. IN. CLAREMONT.

(is it really that hard to understand?)

http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/edi...51114/view.php

Cops seek info on student
Police seeking the Claremont serial killer want information about a student who worked in hospitality around the time of the murders.
Last month, police questioned a woman who had lived in a Federation house in Stirling Highway, Claremont in the mid 90s.She shared the house with her sister and four other people.She said the man the police were interested in had lived in the share house for about three months after the first victim, Sarah Spiers, went missing in January 1996.During the initial investigation into the murders, a house resident had contacted police about the man because he thought he was suspicious.“They asked us if we could remember any-thing about the guy,” the woman said.“All we could remember was his first name and sketchy details: he drove a Com-modore, he was a student and worked in hospitality.“The police said they couldn’t rule him out and he was still on their list.”The woman said that in 1996 they had adver-tised in the local paper for a short-term tenant."He responded and my sister met him,” she said.The woman was sorry neither she nor her former housemates could remember much.“The police tried hard to jog our memories,” she said.She said a housemate had reported the man to police because he was creepy.“I would come home from work late and he would be outside looking in my window,” she said. She said police told her there were still a few people they wanted to investigate so they could be eliminated from their inquiries.“They were very, very definite they weren’t homing in on this person [the man at the house],” she said.A WA Police spokeswoman said Operation Macro remained an active investigation for the special crime squad.“Maintaining the operational integrity of this investigation is paramount,” she said.

 

[papertrail]

BECAUSE. THIS. ARTICLE. MENTIONS. A. FEDERATION. HOUSE. ON. STIRLING. HIGHWAY.

AND. A. COMMODORE.

AND. IT. CAME. OUT. A FEW. WEEKS. BEFORE. THE. COMMODORE. ARTICLE.

I. ASKED. PARKIE. IF. HE. COULD. CHECK. IF. HE. RECOGNISES. ONE. FROM. THE. VIDEO. ON. STIRLING. HWY. IN. CLAREMONT.

http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/edi...51114/view.php

Cops seek info on student
Police seeking the Claremont serial killer want information about a student who worked in hospitality around the time of the murders.
Last month, police questioned a woman who had lived in a Federation house in Stirling Highway, Claremont in the mid 90s.She shared the house with her sister and four other people.She said the man the police were interested in had lived in the share house for about three months after the first victim, Sarah Spiers, went missing in January 1996.During the initial investigation into the murders, a house resident had contacted police about the man because he thought he was suspicious.“They asked us if we could remember any-thing about the guy,” the woman said.“All we could remember was his first name and sketchy details: he drove a Com-modore, he was a student and worked in hospitality.“The police said they couldn’t rule him out and he was still on their list.”The woman said that in 1996 they had adver-tised in the local paper for a short-term tenant."He responded and my sister met him,” she said.The woman was sorry neither she nor her former housemates could remember much.“The police tried hard to jog our memories,” she said.She said a housemate had reported the man to police because he was creepy.“I would come home from work late and he would be outside looking in my window,” she said. She said police told her there were still a few people they wanted to investigate so they could be eliminated from their inquiries.“They were very, very definite they weren’t homing in on this person [the man at the house],” she said.A WA Police spokeswoman said Operation Macro remained an active investigation for the special crime squad.“Maintaining the operational integrity of this investigation is paramount,” she said.

Parkie was referring to federation house with the hydrangeas on lefthand side relative to his discussion re one of claremont ghost's videos. The search using google earth on stirling highway was to locate that house not the house in the article.

 

[billywhizz]

You need to be more accurate with your hypothetical question. The attached will make what I say perfectly clear !

Why don't you add on 34 years, 11 months and 30 days and see what date you come up with.

You are still 34 years old, right up until the day of your 35th birthday. FFS.

 

[billywhizz]

Parkie was referring to federation house with the hydrangeas on lefthand side relative to his discussion re one of claremont ghost's videos. The search using google earth on stirling highway was to locate that house not the house in the article.

I know what I asked him to do.

I was trying to see if it was possible the houses could be linked.

Go back to sleep Papertrail.

 

[papertrail]

just re-watched the CIA documentary -- this came about because I came across a news article that had detail of a press discussion with someone that appeared on the CIA documentary. The news article is attached.

That person is George Kyme.

Then after rereading the recent article (SS anniversary article) in which the woman that found JR was interviewed. In that interview she detailed how when her family were traveling down Woolcoot Road there were a number of chickens roaming around, and that their children and pressured her husband to stop so they could catch a few. It appears that this was the main reason why the family stopped, and the flower picking was a later thought.

The George Kyme article (dated 5/4/97) contains a fair bit of detail about the guy Jason who had discovered CG's remains :
1. Kyme ran a market garden business on Bernard Road Carabooda, about 1km from the CG scene
2. Jason had worked for Kyme approximately 4 months before the CG discovery day -- that would make it he worked for Kyme in December 1996. How long for ?
3. Jason was driving his girlfriend's vehicle on the day of discovery and Kyme assumed that is why he returned to Kyme's premises to raise the alarm
4. Jason's girlfriend was working for Kyme
5. Jason was a plasterer (from Kyme's memory)

I googled Kyme's name (george kyme western australia) surprise surprise -- and found that he was also the director of a chicken hatchery located on Karoborup Road Carabooda which is about 4kms south of the market garden location and according to the online article this business was founded in 1980.

This detail prompted me to recheck some paper clips I have and in particular one clip from West Australian dated 17/3/97 (initial photocopy blackened - attached) which showed a very large strange building and I could never make out what it was. As it turns out it is a very large shed of the design that is used to house chickens in a battery (egg laying) situation.

I then located another copy of the same photo that shows WA police doing a forensic line search in Wellard and I believe this search was done on 619 Millar Road; which just happens to be the property at which JR was located (on that property's north - east boundary which is Woolcoot Road) !

I have also checked the online electoral role and it is clear that the Kyme extended family were connected to the Bernard Road market garden property, and other properties located in Wanneroo.

There are a few points that niggle me now :
1. Did employees of the Kyme market garden, also work at the Kyme chicken hatchery in Carabooda ?
2. Did Jason ever work at the chicken hatchery ?
3. Did Jason's girlfriend ever work at the chicken hatchery ?
4. Did the Kyme chicken hatchery ever supply stock to the Wellard chicken farm ?
4a?If so, did Jason ever make deliveries there ?
5. Kyme mentioned that Jason worked as a plasterer. Did Jason have access to a panel van ?
6. Why did Jason work at the market garden if he was a plasterer ?
7. Did Jason drive his girlfriend's vehicle to the site where he discovered CG ?
8. Did Jason walk to the CG discovery site? If so, why did he not drive there ?
9. Where did Jason live ?
10.Did Jason, or any of his acquaintances including his girlfriend ever attend Claremont area ?
11.Did Jason have access to a taxi ?

I have been unable to find anything that connects the Kyme business to Wellard online. But I consider the 'possible connection' between the Carabooda hatchery and the Wellard chicken farm needs to be followed up.

Is this how the two disposal sites are connected ?

 

[papertrail]

Why don't you add on 34 years, 11 months and 30 days and see what date you come up with.

You are still 34 years old, right up until the day of your 35th birthday. FFS.

Why don't you add on 34 years, 11 months and 30 days and see what date you come up with.

You are still 34 years old, right up until the day of your 35th birthday. FFS.

No need for that nasty language.

1996 minus 35 years is 1961; so not matter which way you want to TWIST the date you cannot come up an answer to match your theory. The company account online (ASX doc) is as at 30 June 2011 and that details (accurately) the age of 51 so that will take you back to 30 June 1960. Therefore his birthdate is before 30 June 1960. 30 June 1960 + 35 years (so that each possible day is included in the calculations according to your theory) would make it 30 June 1995 is the absolute latest date. The CIA documentary STATED that one of the (current at time in August 2008) persons of interest was 34 when THE CLAREMONT MURDERS occurred which as we all know occurred in 1996 - if you want to be pedantic the murders commenced on 9 June 1996.

There is one point you appear to have missed regarding your comment "You are still 34 years old, right up until the day of your 35th birthday". The online calculator I used, and I posted the screen copy of the calculation, I used 34 years so the online calculator would include ALL days up until the 1st day of the 35th year.

I have always found that people that get abusive when an error is pointed out, do so due to embarrassment. No need to be embarrassed.