Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[papertrail]

and another. the language is NOTHING like that used on bigfooty.

http://storywrite.com/story/9832433-Jab-Jab-Jab-by-leon-drawoc

 

[Bartholemeus]

Iknowwhatyoudid or Bartholemeus -- do you have any ideas about who had 'invited' Droc to blog on the Bigfooty forum ? Sounds strange to me that someone would be 'invited'; sounds to me that someone may have found is original (personal) blog (which I have now found and read) and then made contact with him and suggested to him he might want to use Bigfooty. Or could it be that the person who 'invited' had gotten all the info from Droc and then blogged it on Bigfooty, standing in for Droc ?

Myself and others are aware of who invited Droc to BF as some of us have seen the email exchange. He was invited to come tell his story and was requested to conceal the identity of all involved. He didn't of course because he felt he couldn't be sued on the basis that you can't be sued for publishing correct information.

There's a number of flaws in his story. Whilst I think he was genuine in his belief that TT is the CSK, I also think he fabricated a few things to bolster the credibility of his story, justifying it to himself that he was so sure he was right he changed some theories into facts by fabricating some of the gaps.

If police did find DNA in 2008 and all the main POIs have been ruled out then you'd think Macro went back and had a red hot look at TT. From what I can see his alibi is not water tight.

 

[Bartholemeus]

and another. the language is NOTHING like that used on bigfooty.

http://storywrite.com/story/9832433-Jab-Jab-Jab-by-leon-drawoc

I can absolutely confirm that was Noel Coward posting on Big Footy. You're free to believe whatever you want of course but I'd like to think I have a AAA credibility ranking on these boards with most people.

 

[Elwood_1]

droc was a conman\criminal
he was obviously a compulsive lier and attention seeker. ive seen this type of crim before. in his pathetic existance he is nobody never achieved anything and was going nowere, bring on CSK bull.... story and bingo hes somebody.
so an international gang was buying snuff movies thats why these girls were murdered?
i can assure you droc was a compulsive lier he probably believed or convinced himself that what he had made up in his head was true, blearing the lines between reality and fantasy, jail can do strange things to a persons mind, plus i dont think he was a full squid to start with anyway

He sounds to me like a ten pound Pom, who spent half his life wishing he was back in Old Blighty. My feelings are that he was a gypsy. <modsnip>

 

[Elwood_1]

Yep totally agree with your sentiments re the possibility for the forensics to be totally 'set up' by the perp/s. Given the girls were found in situations that also formed the pattern that too shows that the perp/s set up everything.

I do wonder however, who belonged to the clothes and shoes located at JR's site. Could there have been clothes from the Rowe Park / Karrakatta rape victim -- she fled naked to the hospital in Monash Avenue ? I also wonder about the clothes at JR's site, if there was any bodily fluids found ?

It doesn't matter who the clothes belonged to, just so long as there was no evidence of the killer. Pick them up off the beach somewhere. It is all chaff. Leave a carrot there. Just one carrot. 20 years later the police will still be hunting down every single similar carrot in the country just trying for a lead. Forensics aren't the answer.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Believing the Karra victim's clothes were dumped at the JR site is fanciful. That's just La La land stuff to suggest police didn't check those clothes belonged to Karra victim.

 

[Sutton]

Thank you, Bart, for the EXCELLENT compilations on Droc's claims. IMO, his account seems believable, until you start to break it down. For starters:

Other musings from Droc

I am somewhat different than than most people you would meet. I can only give you scant details about how I knew about the snuff movies and the secret room in the factory etc, but I can say that I discovered intimate details, and had such personal and intimate (whisper) details about the woman who for 15 years prior, had an unhealthy obsession with me. I gleaned much knowledge.

Such detail that I can and seem unable to erase, an enactment of what happened in that secret room. The same apply s with gleaning details about the taxi driver, such as watching him take photo’s of blondes on the Fremantle streets, and parades, linked to his rage when his blonde sister dyed her hair black, and the flippant comment that ‘people are nothing but cattle.’ to his boss of fifteen years prior when he worked in a slaughter house and that (quote his boss who had no knowledge of my suspicions) “it wold be just as easy to slash a humans throat.
The routine was this! The girl and he cruised in a cab until they spotted a girl. The girl would offer to share the cab making her feel secure, and then when in the cab, a stun gun was used. They were then driven to the factory where one or more were waiting, the killing and the filming was over before nights end, and the bodies were dumped just before daybreak and transported in the taxi, and with the girl sitting in the back acting as a passenger. They were not about sex, just a hatred for ‘rich little daddy’s brats,’ to quote something the girl said on a previous occasion.

After each girl was murdered, several things happened. One guy left for the UK taking the snuff movie with him, and which is a small fortune on the black market and certain Arab countries. The taxi driver ceased driving cabs after about four weeks after each murder, and changed houses before the next murder, and also recommenced driving cabs, and the girl departed for the Eastern States after each murder; returning at different stages before the next murder, and the gaps between those departures was relative to the long gap between the murder of the 2nd girl, and the murder of the last girl.

Snuff movies are 20 min movies without voices, and old 45 style records and music. From the pick-up point, 15 min to the factory, 20 min plus 10 for filming and prep, and maximum 45 mins to disposal...

Droc is unable to tell us how he knew about the snuff films, other than to say he discovered intimate details about a woman who'd been obsessed with him for 15 years.

Droc cannot forget the 'enactment' of what happened in that secret room. He also cannot forget TT taking candid pictures of blondes, TT's rage when his sister dyed her hair black, or TT calling people cattle.

The operation in which TT was involved was elaborate. TT and an unnamed woman would drive around looking for a 'rich little daddy's brat'. The girl would be there to make the victim feel at ease.

Once the victim entered the car she would be stun gunned. Then they drove her to the factory where at least one other person was waiting. There they killed the victim in 30 min., maximum. They played old 45 style records and videotaping the whole thing. The victim would be put back in the vehicle and disposed of before dawn.

This was not about sex, but about hatred. However, it seems like they decided to turn a profit off that hatred and sell the videos to individuals in certain Arab countries.

After the killing, one person would head to the UK with the film. TT would stop driving a taxi for about four weeks. The girl would go to the Eastern states. She would return before the next murder. TT would "change houses" before the next murder. I don't know why this was necessary, as they were killing the girls at the factory. But whatever.

I am leaving out so many things that don't make sense, but I think that's enough of a reason to question Droc's accuracy.

 

[CSK?]

A few points I really wish Droc would have clarified..

1) The make and model of TT's taxi (like papertrail mentioned)

2) The make and model of the van TT stored in Droc's garage (since van was used in Karrakatta abduction & rape)

3) More info on the Michelle lady.

4) The whereabouts of TT on the nights of other abductions/murders

Some points I find very interesting.....

1) TT's involvement in filming the girls > after leaving the Taxi company TT becomes a photographer.

2) No TT disputing any of what Droc has said (almost like he didn't want any more attention drawn to it)

3) The fact Droc made a statutory declaration, if it was all BS then why risk perjury, a false stat dec is a federal offence. I know this doesn't mean no one lies using stat decs but most who do lie wouldn't repeatedly be bringing that to the attention of police several times, the police commissioner, the royal inquest e.t.c e.t.c


I said in a previous post the whole 'snuff film' scenario was one aspect that made his claims hard to believe however after looking into this there is plenty of evidence online to suggest there is a prominent black market for these films. An Australian pedophile was arrested a few years ago for making Snuff & torture films to order for clients on the 'deep web', A group of Japanese business men were arrested for producing and distributing snuff movies to clients in Dubai in 2014.

For as many holes or inconsistencies Droc has in his story there are just as many points to spike my curiosity enough to believe what he has said is in fact very possible.


and regardless of if Droc's story is true or false, either way the police completely dropped the ball in following it up thoroughly.

 

[Parkie]

It doesn't matter who the clothes belonged to, just so long as there was no evidence of the killer. Pick them up off the beach somewhere. It is all chaff. Leave a carrot there. Just one carrot. 20 years later the police will still be hunting down every single similar carrot in the country just trying for a lead. Forensics aren't the answer.

Papertrail; No victims clothes or anything else was left at another victims site. Full Stop.

 

[J35]

1) The make and model of TT's taxi (like papertrail mentioned)

Barts review posts state Ford- likely to be ford falcon station wagon which were commonly used as taxis back then- even today

2) The make and model of the van TT stored in Droc's garage (since van was used in Karrakatta abduction & rape)

Barts review posts state Bedford Truck.

 

[J35]

Forensics aren't the answer.

Typical outsider attitude.
Forensics should NEVER be solely relied upon- always used in conjunction with other evidence (i.e. part of total evidence).

In cases where DNA has led to wrongly convicted people the cases themselves are generally based on (for example): a) very circumstantial evidence by the prosecution; b) poor forensic procedures; or c) corruption or racism or investigator bias.

I see people posting the Amanda Knox situation one here...I have bit my tongue.. but if you had any experience in forensics you would know that Amanda Knox's DNA would have been everywhere as she lived in the appartment! Naturally her DNA will be on the knife in low concentrations. It was a very weak prosecution case + poor police investigation + investigator bias.

You can not correlate the Amanda Knox example to CSK, where, the CSK's DNA would be in greater concentration than any other male (assumption of male here) profile if obtainable. The DNA would place the suspect in contact with the victim- this IS NOT PROOF that the suspect is the CSK without supporting evidence (eg. semen + no alibi OR scratch marks+DNA profile from finger nails OR hair fibers of suspect + car fibers on JR matching suspect vehicle OR insert combination of cumulative supporting evidence here)

If you think that the police only need a DNA profile to solve a case then you are the unfortunate victim of the CSI effect.

EDIT:
Papertrail has raised the point of CSK being an IVF or Adopted-- this assumes that the forensic investigators + police are incompetent and stupid. If you know the suspect is adopted (from your investigations) then you don't test the adults the suspect grew up with- you track down, for example, the actual parents for familial DNA testing. If it comes to light during police investigation that the suspect was an IVF baby, you do paternal testing (whether it be DNA profiling [half inherited from each parent] or Y chromosome testing etc). Let's stick to what we are good at.

 

[Elwood_1]

Typical outsider attitude.
Forensics should NEVER be solely relied upon- always used in conjunction with other evidence (i.e. part of total evidence).

In cases where DNA has led to wrongly convicted people the cases themselves are generally based on (for example): a) very circumstantial evidence by the prosecution; b) poor forensic procedures; or c) corruption or racism or investigator bias.

I see people posting the Amanda Knox situation one here...I have bit my tongue.. but if you had any experience in forensics you would know that Amanda Knox's DNA would have been everywhere as she lived in the appartment! Naturally her DNA will be on the knife in low concentrations. It was a very weak prosecution case + poor police investigation + investigator bias.

You can not correlate the Amanda Knox example to CSK, where, the CSK's DNA would be in greater concentration than any other male (assumption of male here) profile if obtainable. The DNA would place the suspect in contact with the victim- this IS NOT PROOF that the suspect is the CSK without supporting evidence (eg. semen + no alibi OR scratch marks+DNA profile from finger nails OR hair fibers of suspect + car fibers on JR matching suspect vehicle OR insert combination of cumulative supporting evidence here)

If you think that the police only need a DNA profile to solve a case then you are the unfortunate victim of the CSI effect.

EDIT:
Papertrail has raised the point of CSK being an IVF or Adopted-- this assumes that the forensic investigators + police are incompetent and stupid. If you know the suspect is adopted (from your investigations) then you don't test the adults the suspect grew up with- you track down, for example, the actual parents for familial DNA testing. If it comes to light during police investigation that the suspect was an IVF baby, you do paternal testing (whether it be DNA profiling [half inherited from each parent] or Y chromosome testing etc). Let's stick to what we are good at.

From my casual observations simply based on WAPOL following LW around for ten years it would seem pretty clear that the investigators really were incompetent and stupid. Throw in Drocs repeated attempts to contact them and this entire thing descends into a farce.

I am struggling to decide whether this case, among others, was simply beyond the capability of the WAPOL to investigate, or whether the offender was a lot more careful and smarter than them. If you simply exclude the element of blind luck.

The Knox case is a good example of the police having decided who was guilty, and then just going about setting up the evidence to suit their assumptions. That is exactly what they did with LW. And in both cases they spent millions of dollars and man hours to be left with egg on their faces.

It could be suggested that they have spent the last 20 years successfully excluding suspects, but unfortunately in the process they haven't managed to secure an arrest. At what point do they just admit defeat and give up? 30 years? 40 years? IMHO it is stretching the bounds of credibility to think they will suddenly make an arrest now, let alone exclude 'reasonable doubt' in a courtroom and gain a conviction.

 

[papertrail]

Believing the Karra victim's clothes were dumped at the JR site is fanciful. That's just La La land stuff to suggest police didn't check those clothes belonged to Karra victim.

Pray tell how do you know these clothes found at JR's disposal site weren't checked against the Karrakatta victim's missing clothing ?

Answer: you don't know.

 

[papertrail]

EDIT:
Papertrail has raised the point of CSK being an IVF or Adopted-- this assumes that the forensic investigators + police are incompetent and stupid. If you know the suspect is adopted (from your investigations) then you don't test the adults the suspect grew up with- you track down, for example, the actual parents for familial DNA testing. If it comes to light during police investigation that the suspect was an IVF baby, you do paternal testing (whether it be DNA profiling [half inherited from each parent] or Y chromosome testing etc). Let's stick to what we are good at.

Snipped.

If parents were both deceased, and perp is only child they, the police, would never know. If perp assumed a false identity for some reason for whole of adult life, police would never know. It may never 'have come to light' that the perp is a baby conceived through IVF. There are loads of scenarios that can work.

 

[papertrail]

Papertrail; No victims clothes or anything else was left at another victims site. Full Stop.

Other clothes were found at JR's site. Simple. Full stop.

Or are you stating you know for a fact, if so, how do you know so ?

 

[papertrail]

Myself and others are aware of who invited Droc to BF as some of us have seen the email exchange. He was invited to come tell his story and was requested to conceal the identity of all involved. He didn't of course because he felt he couldn't be sued on the basis that you can't be sued for publishing correct information.

There's a number of flaws in his story. Whilst I think he was genuine in his belief that TT is the CSK, I also think he fabricated a few things to bolster the credibility of his story, justifying it to himself that he was so sure he was right he changed some theories into facts by fabricating some of the gaps.

If police did find DNA in 2008 and all the main POIs have been ruled out then you'd think Macro went back and had a red hot look at TT. From what I can see his alibi is not water tight.

Who are the 'others' ? Email exchanges prove nothing. Could be one person with multi personalities and email addresses.

 

[papertrail]

It doesn't matter who the clothes belonged to, just so long as there was no evidence of the killer. Pick them up off the beach somewhere. It is all chaff. Leave a carrot there. Just one carrot. 20 years later the police will still be hunting down every single similar carrot in the country just trying for a lead. Forensics aren't the answer.

Sounds like you've got all the evidence sorted. I wonder if the upholstery fibres could have been collected (by the perp) from a vehicle in a used car yard or whilst he took the vehicle for a test drive -- how about that for an idea ?

 

[papertrail]

He sounds to me like a ten pound Pom, who spent half his life wishing he was back in Old Blighty. My feelings are that he was a gypsy. <modsnip>

Noel Geoffrey Coward was born in Smithton Tasmania -- Ancestory records show this; he is not a 10 pound immigrant.

 

[papertrail]

The guy (Gozenton) detailed in this document re Occult, is also detailed in the CCC's investigations and subsequent report re the Mallard case. It just so happens Gozenton was connected to Mosman Park with a 'mate' who lived in a block of flats near corner of Glyde Street and Stirling Highway (in May 1994) which raises hairs on the back of my neck (due to the connection to Mosman Park of Sarah Spiers and Ciara Glennon) when the information contained in the link document is considered with Dr Dunn's contact with Neil Fearis re his (Dunn's) patients' information regarding what was going to occur with Ciara Glennon - all detailed in the Marshall book of errors.

Could Gozenton have served his prison sentence after his conviction in March 2001 (don't know length of sentence or parole but he was obviously released by 23 May 1994 (date of Lawrence murder in Mosman Park) and graduated to a 'higher level /degree' in the occult network ?

You will note that a very prominent and highly respected Perth law practitioner's name (which you may recognize from the Rayney case) is mentioned and he gives detail about Gozenton, so too a WA Police representative.

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4883

http://netk.net.au/Mallard/CCCReport.pdf

 

[Parkie]

Other clothes were found at JR's site. Simple. Full stop.

Or are you stating you know for a fact, if so, how do you know so ?

I asked & was told, nope, no clothes were left at another victims locality. I am not saying who said that. No point asking.