GUILTY Australia - Lisa Harnum, 30, killed in 15-story fall, Sydney, 30 July 2011 #4

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jimbob said:
I suspect there will be an all out attack on the Rathmell evidence. The critical point will be, can you accurately discern what happened at a distance of 93m? The judge in the first case thought so but will the 3 appeal judges agree? I have tested what I can see over 93m on a clear day and came to the view that I could quite easily tell the difference between someone unloading rubbish and someone reaching down to grab an object from a balcony.
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I don't think we should be taking our own personal abilities and experiences too much into account since you may not have the same vision as Rathmell.

If the defense does attack Rathmell, we can let the Crown bring in optometry experts and medical records of Rathmell's eyesight.
 
they'll get you said:
SouthAussie same here. My daughter thinks he's innocent so I told her to hold her breath she only made it to 30 seconds. I'm thinking Lisa's heart and fear could help bring on a faint.
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This reminds me of the pilot episode of "Pushing Daisies" where one of the characters survives an attempt at strangulation because as a synchronized swimmer, she had developed the ability to hold her breath for a long time.

Again, everybody has different abilities so don't let personal experiences be a benchmark for evidence... but for personal opinion, it's OKAY.

Would SG have been crushing Lisa's chest while strangling and would this reduce her lung capacity further?
 
they'll get you said:
Gittany is muscular, I bet stronger than the journo. Look how tiny Lisa is!
Lisa's hair was possibly waist length. A plait is strong enough to tow a car. If you're being held by the hair it renders you nearly defenceless. I wouldn't be surprised if he used it to control her or even worse to strangle her. Possible but not probable.
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This photo should be sent to Channel 7 to prove to Lisa that SG was perfectly capable of carrying Lisa and overloading her off the balcony. I had not seen this photo before.
 
It's really hard to say what state she was in when she went over the edge.

I am hoping that she hadn't just fainted - unconcious, but still breathing when she was unloaded, because the sheer callousness of that action is beyond unsettling.

Not that I can condone ANY of it, but if she had done into a full respiratory arrest (hypoxic to the extent that the drive to breathe CO2 was gone, and she was't breathing) - I can sort of understand it seeming like the point of no return was passed.

I really hope that there was no conciousness at all at the balcony approach. The terror she felt in giving her mother her counseller's contact details is heartbreaking. That dash to the door - all too much suffering. I hope it ended there. That there wasn't a further 69 seconds of terror and panic. She had already gone through far too much.
 
jimbob said:
If the eyewitness evidence can stand up to the barrage that the defence will unleash then the appeal may fail. I suspect there will be an all out attack on the Rathmell evidence. The critical point will be, can you accurately discern what happened at a distance of 93m? The judge in the first case thought so but will the 3 appeal judges agree? I have tested what I can see over 93m on a clear day and came to the view that I could quite easily tell the difference between someone unloading rubbish and someone reaching down to grab an object from a balcony.
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He did stand up to an intense cross-examination. The judge herself stood in the same place as the eyewitness, and found herself more ready to accept Rathmell's evidence. That it was clearly "unloading" and pushing away, not reaching down in a desperate attempt to save her. The fingerprint evidence matches his statement.

I do not believe, having withstood a lengthy cross examination, the appeal will be focused on Josh. In applying for leave to appeal against the conviction, the defence needs to prove that the grounds upon which the conviction was secured was unsafe.

Interpretation of evidence may be something that can cause leave in a jury trial, but I highly doubt three judicial minds will find blatant error's in McCallum's decision. I'd be surprised if there was a single dissenter that did.

The only avenues I see are against the sentence - which, considering he isn't even needing to serve the standard non-parole period, I find unlikely. Or new evidence, striking new evidence, like a confession from another party - a ploy which I imagine would be seen through immediately, regardless.

No, SG is gone from this life for a good deal of time. If only RL and those who want to smear the memory of Lisa would vanish into obscurity too.
 
icu nurse said:
respectfully snipped

No, SG is gone from this life for a good deal of time. If only RL and those who want to smear the memory of Lisa would vanish into obscurity too.
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"Let my daughter's cry be heard," says mother of murdered Lisa Harnum.
 
SouthAussie said:
I have always wondered if, with that strong handhold over Lisa's airways, she may have gone into a faint quite quickly, and been easier to handle or been unable to fight back anymore.

Do you know about how long it would take a person of Lisa's small size to faint or become woozy, icu nurse?
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I have another theory on this from personal experience. I was given a glass of wine on the back balcony of a man's home and I had met the students there before this who had gone into their bedroom.

After we had finished our drinks, he suddenly picked me up and carried me down the hall, threw me on his bed and raped me.

As soon as he picked me up, I went into shock mode and while I was conscious of what he was doing, I was incapable of calling out to the students for help or struggling.

No one could ever understand why I could not call out or kick him but I was totally paralysed with fear.

Apparently, we either FIGHT, FLEE OR FREEZE in these circumstances.

Eventually, a Psychiatrist told me that I froze in fear. (Otherwise, in hindsight he could have drugged my wine.) Few people even now ever acknowledge this fear response to trauma.

http://www.stressstop.com/stress-tips/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response-to-stress.php

THE FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE has got a new name. It's now called the fight, flight or freeze response. Stress experts around the world are adding the word freeze to the name in deference to the fact that instead of fighting or fleeing, sometimes we tend to freeze (like a deer in the headlights) in traumatic situations.

The fight or flight response (in its original form) is about survival. It's about hope. We activate it when we believe there's a chance we can outrun or outfight our attackers. The freeze response however, gets activated when's there's no hope.
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IMO SG could have d always told Lisa that if she ever tried to leave him, he would end her life and pretend it was suicide. According to the lady who recently came forward at the sentencing hearing, this was the case.

It is such a pity she did not come forward earlier because IMO Lisa had been living with this fear for some time. I have forgotten how long ago the lady said Lisa told her this.

Therefore, as soon as SG picked her up, Lisa may have known that this was going to be the end. Who knows what he said to her at the same time? An example could have been, "Now I'm going to throw you over the balcony and everyone will think that you have committed suicide.":facepalm:

I also think due to this photo, that Simon could have practised lifting Lisa up several times before and had this plan in mind if he ever needed it. For all we know he may have threatened Lisa with it to keep her under control. The note found in her jeans is also revealing too as if she had a premonition.

Therefore, IMO Lisa would have been completely traumatised and she FROZE as she knew there was no hope.

Some of these things could have helped the Prosecution with a case for premeditated murder if that lady had come forward before the trial. In other words, the practise had been done in advance of lifting her up and it was just a matter of time for the plan to be activated if he ever needed it.
 
Earlier, Lisa Harnum's mother said the abuse and murder meted out to her daughter by the high-flying Sydney drug dealer should be heard as a "cry around the world" for men to stop committing violence against women.
 
jimbob said:
I think Today Tonight has finished...it is the Sunday Night program you need to send it to....or find Ross Coulthart on twitter I guess!
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Yes send it to Ross Coulthart on twitter so there is no excuse for his not seeing it but also to other people on that show especially to the producer.
 
icu nurse said:
TGY - it's just too short a period of time - and a massive trauma. If a hyoid fracture was present (small, somewhat fragile bone in neck) - which happens some, but not all, of the time with strangling it could be rather telling and I imagine, mentioned in the Crown case, but strangulation can occur without this break, and I have seen a hyoid fracture as a result of simply whiplash in a high speed MVA. The defence may have been able to sucessfully refute it's presence with statistics or examples.

Signs of strangulation and suffocation in the eyes - like bleeding of the sclera wouln't have developed to a significant enough extent to differentiate between that and the fall.


The ONLY way that SG could have covered up this murder was in the way that he did - in the timeframe that he did - before more damning evidence - bruising patterns, etc, could form. Even arson wouldn't have been effective, as it would have become apparent that she wasn't breathing due to the lack of smoke inhalation.
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IMO SG had thought this through over many months before and knew what he was going to do if Lisa ever tried to leave him. Therefore, SG thought he had the perfect plan to get away with murder.
 
OMG' Channel 7 just contacted me
NF from channel 7 is very interested in this photo, he asked were I obtained it & he's looking at Webslueths now. I told him WS is highly moderated and we can only post with proof from MSM. He somehow vaguely recalls the photo but is extremely happy to have it.
Phew that was exciting!
 
Estelle said:
I have another theory on this from personal experience. I was given a glass of wine on the back balcony of a man's home and I had met the students there before this who had gone into their bedroom.

After we had finished our drinks, he suddenly picked me up and carried me down the hall, threw me on his bed and raped me.

As soon as he picked me up, I went into shock mode and while I was conscious of what he was doing, I was incapable of calling out to the students for help or struggling.

No one could ever understand why I could not call out or kick him but I was totally paralysed with fear.

Apparently, we either FIGHT, FLEE OR FREEZE in these circumstances.

Eventually, a Psychiatrist told me that I froze in fear. (Otherwise, in hindsight he could have drugged my wine.) Few people even now ever acknowledge this fear response to trauma.

http://www.stressstop.com/stress-tips/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response-to-stress.php



IMO SG could have d always told Lisa that if she ever tried to leave him, he would end her life and pretend it was suicide. According to the lady who recently came forward at the sentencing hearing, this was the case.

It is such a pity she did not come forward earlier because IMO Lisa had been living with this fear for some time. I have forgotten how long ago the lady said Lisa told her this.

Therefore, as soon as SG picked her up, Lisa may have known that this was going to be the end. Who knows what he said to her at the same time? An example could have been, "Now I'm going to throw you over the balcony and everyone will think that you have committed suicide.":facepalm:

I also think due to this photo, that Simon could have practised lifting Lisa up several times before and had this plan in mind if he ever needed it. For all we know he may have threatened Lisa with it to keep her under control. The note found in her jeans is also revealing too as if she had a premonition.

Therefore, IMO Lisa would have been completely traumatised and she FROZE as she knew there was no hope.

Some of these things could have helped the Prosecution with a case for premeditated murder if that lady had come forward before the trial. In other words, the practise had been done in advance of lifting her up and it was just a matter of time for the plan to be activated if he ever needed it.
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To dear Estelle, I am very sorry to learn about your experience. Thank you for sharing about it here. Horrible thing to happen.
That you are to share your story here is also educational. Regarding flight fright and freeze.
It is very interesting (apologies if that sounds cold or unsympathetic; not meant that way) and relevant here, that you were rendered incapable of doing or saying anything.
The truth is, I too wonder if this is what happened to Lisa. She FROZE.
I also felt this was premeditated insomuch that the threats and behaviour were rehearsed and practiced.
Having said that; the picture showing his hand over Lisa's mouth appears to have a finger over her nose as well. Would be impossible to breathe, depending on the pressure.
Another thing that has been glossed over was his account of the mornings activities.
They got up early (yawn) and watched *advertiser censored*!
Now we are supposed to swallow his priestly ambitions.
 
Fuskier said:
Simon Gittany jailed 26 years - Sunrise - Yahoo!
‎
Fiancee killer Simon Gittany is now behind bars after being sentenced to ... Sunrise correspondent Sophie Hull is at Parklea Prison in Sydney.

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/21414415/simon-gittany-jailed-26-years/
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In this video, the Reporter said it was premeditated murder. That is the first time I have heard that the Judge considered it premeditated. I need to read the Judge's sentencing. I thought she said it was rage.
 
they'll get you said:
OMG' Channel 7 just contacted me
NF from channel 7 is very interested in this photo, he asked were I obtained it & he's looking at Webslueths now. I told him WS is highly moderated and we can only post with proof from MSM. He somehow vaguely recalls the photo but is extremely happy to have it.
Phew that was exciting!
Click to expand...
Good stuff TGY! The news behind the news eh?
 
they'll get you said:
OMG' Channel 7 just contacted me
NF from channel 7 is very interested in this photo, he asked were I obtained it & he's looking at Webslueths now. I told him WS is highly moderated and we can only post with proof from MSM. He somehow vaguely recalls the photo but is extremely happy to have it.
Phew that was exciting!
Click to expand...

:yourock:
 
Estelle said:
I have another theory on this from personal experience. I was given a glass of wine on the back balcony of a man's home and I had met the students there before this who had gone into their bedroom.

After we had finished our drinks, he suddenly picked me up and carried me down the hall, threw me on his bed and raped me.

As soon as he picked me up, I went into shock mode and while I was conscious of what he was doing, I was incapable of calling out to the students for help or struggling.

No one could ever understand why I could not call out or kick him but I was totally paralysed with fear.

Apparently, we either FIGHT, FLEE OR FREEZE in these circumstances.

Eventually, a Psychiatrist told me that I froze in fear. (Otherwise, in hindsight he could have drugged my wine.) Few people even now ever acknowledge this fear response to trauma.

http://www.stressstop.com/stress-tips/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response-to-stress.php



IMO SG could have d always told Lisa that if she ever tried to leave him, he would end her life and pretend it was suicide. According to the lady who recently came forward at the sentencing hearing, this was the case.

It is such a pity she did not come forward earlier because IMO Lisa had been living with this fear for some time. I have forgotten how long ago the lady said Lisa told her this.

Therefore, as soon as SG picked her up, Lisa may have known that this was going to be the end. Who knows what he said to her at the same time? An example could have been, "Now I'm going to throw you over the balcony and everyone will think that you have committed suicide.":facepalm:

I also think due to this photo, that Simon could have practised lifting Lisa up several times before and had this plan in mind if he ever needed it. For all we know he may have threatened Lisa with it to keep her under control. The note found in her jeans is also revealing too as if she had a premonition.

Therefore, IMO Lisa would have been completely traumatised and she FROZE as she knew there was no hope.

Some of these things could have helped the Prosecution with a case for premeditated murder if that lady had come forward before the trial. In other words, the practise had been done in advance of lifting her up and it was just a matter of time for the plan to be activated if he ever needed it.
Click to expand...

Estelle, IMO this is an excellent post. From your own traumatic experience :furious: you are able to give voice to the 'freeze' response which gives a real understanding. It's like the mind, instantly, accurately perceives the terror and paralyzes the body so that one cannot even scream. You have described the 'freeze' response in a very real and helpful way. This is possible too in Lisa's case. It would be frightening if he had previously threatened her with this fate; then absolutely terrifying if he told her what he was going to do as he was doing it that morning or if she knew that was her fate in those few seconds. Absolutely terrifying.

The phone call to her mother giving her the counsellor's details is very telling of her 'dread' about her own safety in leaving Simon. Dread (a profound deep insecurity and fear) can also have a paralyzing effect as it can make one procrastinate about decisions and action plans longer than is wise to do.

We have learned that she endured approx. 10 months of a psychologically abusive/violating/controlling relationship which increased in intensity following the engagement in the last 6 weeks. Although mentally and emotionally 'beaten down' she reached out for help which is a desire for survival and for a better life. She was able to use the support, but unfortunately her persecutor found out about it and sabotaged it. Another sign of her desire for survival is, that despite all of his surveillance of her, she managed to change the password on the surveillance equipment enough to get that call through to her own mother. Unfortunately SG found out about it before she could exit the apartment that morning. IMO this would also have enraged him because he could not feed his 'obsession' that morning and spy on her as he wanted to do. IMO it is likely he had threatened her before she ran for her life and banged on the neighbour's door.
 
they'll get you said:
OMG' Channel 7 just contacted me
NF from channel 7 is very interested in this photo, he asked were I obtained it & he's looking at Webslueths now. I told him WS is highly moderated and we can only post with proof from MSM. He somehow vaguely recalls the photo but is extremely happy to have it.
Phew that was exciting!
Click to expand...

This is great news that they have responded with interest to this photo and that you had the courage to follow up on my idea.

I am sure we will all be watching with great interest on Sunday night to see how they handle this as they need to show both sides of the story.
 
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