Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[KiwiNZ]

the post / mail has always bothered me … If my friends daughter advised me that her mother had gone missing and her post was coming to me I would have thought the post could contain vital clues to her wear abouts and checked everything. It feels like the post just disappeared, maybe I have this wrong.

One thing that struck me about the Lesley conversion was she said a few things that in forced how she felt about others privacy and she came across like a person whom would keep a secret for you. Which is a great quality to have, don't get me wrong, we all wish we had friends like this, but I do wonder if she took it to far and knows more than she is letting on, but maybe knows in herself that by revealing what she knows now could really anger people that she didn't say sooner.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Fair enough, good points Intrigued, maybe it was just logged as an occurrence, but I thought it had been said that bank statements and all sorts of bits and pieces of info had gone missing from that time ... where did those documents go that Sally physically handed them and the information she relayed to them, DOB etc. I mean, they must have been placed in a manila folder or something. What happened to that .... did it get tossed? It seems Gary started from scratch again ....

Yes that's all very odd isnt it?? Why would they even need Sally to re-provide that sort of information when they can get it themselves??
I can (sort of) understand how a file may not have created to start with but there must have been one in 2007 after Sally made contact with AFP. The podcasts timeline says Sally was told in 2010 the police file had been lost, but there are a number of documents listed in the NCAT decision dated 2007/2008 so perhaps it wasnt the whole file that was lost or maybe it was later found? What a mess!!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Fair enough, good points Intrigued, maybe it was just logged as an occurrence, but I thought it had been said that bank statements and all sorts of bits and pieces of info had gone missing from that time ... where did those documents go that Sally physically handed them and the information she relayed to them, DOB etc. I mean, they must have been placed in a manila folder or something. What happened to that .... did it get tossed? It seems Gary started from scratch again ....

Yes that's all very odd isnt it?? Why would they even need Sally to re-provide that sort of information when they can get it themselves??
I can (sort of) understand how a file may not have created to start with but there must have been one in 2007 after Sally made contact with AFP. The podcasts timeline says Sally was told in 2010 the police file had been lost, but there are a number of documents listed in the NCAT decision dated 2007/2008 so perhaps it wasnt the whole file that was lost or maybe it was later found? What a mess!!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Cant remember which episode, but they interviewed an ex policeman who was on duty at Byron Bay police station at about that time. Didnt he say that if someone was located shortly after being reported missing, they would just write "f" for found on the paper work.

Yes that's right. I think it was a retired nsw policeman who had worked in missing persons. They talked about how hard it is for police not being able to say anything when people are missing of their own volition and dont want anything shared with their family.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Back to a question I asked a week or two ago which was answered but I believe that answer was wrong.

I had asked - How did the policeman or bank person who called Marion (when she got back from overseas) to verify her whereabouts get in contact with her?

Someone had said she had a mobile number but I believe on Facebook sally confirmed she didn’t have a mobile.

How do you think they got in contact with her with no fixed address?

Did they look up her credit card transaction and find the accommodation where she was staying?

I think the Bank can only use the contact details they have in their system (because its verified). Marion may have updated her address and contact details with the bank prior to leaving Australia or upon her return.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

from the FB page

Question -
Hello could you please confirm did Marion have a mobile phone before she left for the UK, or is it known if she had one after she returned (assuming it was her) and was that what the bank contacted her on ? thank you

Answer -

Marion had never had a mobile phone. The other two queries are not known as the last time Sally spoke to her Mum was the 1st Aug 97. It's also not known as to what ph no the bank rang, as Gary Sheehan stated just after Marion was put on the AFPMP register, that the Police had never spoken too, or sighted nor located Marion.

____________________________________end of FB post

I think if she was contacted she must have updated her mailing and contact details when she returned - would be good to know if the mail stopped going to Lesley's address at some stage and if that coincided with Marion's return. (I think I remember them saying her post was redirected to Lesley's while she was overseas) her bank statements must have been going somewhere ? if she had a credit card that would have held a lot of clues as to her movements.

thanks so much for that information. Why did the bank contact her, were they doing it for sally or the police? Hadn’t she already taken all her money out by then or had she not? Do we know if her bank account was in her new name or old name?
I’m tipping that if the call by the bank was to confirm her identity (which I assume the call was for) then they would have asked her a number of security questions. Surely if the person was a fake and Marion didn’t come back to Australia, then a) the bank more than likely wouldn’t be able to contact the scammer and b) the scammer wouldn’t be able to answer security questions etc.
I’m convinced from everything we know including primarily the writing on the passenger card which looks to match marions, that Marion was withdrawing the money.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

the post / mail has always bothered me … If my friends daughter advised me that her mother had gone missing and her post was coming to me I would have thought the post could contain vital clues to her wear abouts and checked everything. It feels like the post just disappeared, maybe I have this wrong.

One thing that struck me about the Lesley conversion was she said a few things that in forced how she felt about others privacy and she came across like a person whom would keep a secret for you. Which is a great quality to have, don't get me wrong, we all wish we had friends like this, but I do wonder if she took it to far and knows more than she is letting on, but maybe knows in herself that by revealing what she knows now could really anger people that she didn't say sooner.

A little while back I messaged Sally to ask her about the mail redirection to Lesley. Her response was:
There’s nothing to suggest she had a redirection set up with Australia post - just hand written on a few things and Medicare bills c/o Lesley

It doesnt sound like Lesley received a lot of mail for Marion. Makes me wonder if Marion might have had a Po box?

 

[KiwiNZ]

thanks so much for that information. Why did the bank contact her, were they doing it for sally or the police? Hadn’t she already taken all her money out by then or had she not? Do we know if her bank account was in her new name or old name?
I’m tipping that if the call by the bank was to confirm her identity (which I assume the call was for) then they would have asked her a number of security questions. Surely if the person was a fake and Marion didn’t come back to Australia, then a) the bank more than likely wouldn’t be able to contact the scammer and b) the scammer wouldn’t be able to answer security questions etc.
I’m convinced from everything we know including primarily the writing on the passenger card which looks to match marions, that Marion was withdrawing the money.

My understanding the police contacted the Bank and the Bank contacted Marion to ID her. It was a few weeks after the last withdrawal.

I believe the bank account was in the Marion name, as Sally called the bank to see if there was any activity on the account as she had the bank account number / details because she was meant to deposit the money from the sale of the car. The customer service lady let it slip that there had been activity in Byron Bay when Sally said her mother was in the UK.

good point they do always ask security questions, mine always asks DOB and address, which I always roll my eyes at because that's really not that hard for someone to figure out lol... but maybe my bank is just lax lol

I agree no doubt in my mind it was Marion that withdrew the money. Just cant figure why in $5K increments.

 

[KiwiNZ]

A little while back I messaged Sally to ask her about the mail redirection to Lesley. Her response was:
There’s nothing to suggest she had a redirection set up with Australia post - just hand written on a few things and Medicare bills c/o Lesley

It doesnt sound like Lesley received a lot of mail for Marion. Makes me wonder if Marion might have had a Po box?

ok thanks for that.

Would make sense if she had a P/O Box as that would be the sensible thing to do, wish there was a searchable list for PO Boxes

 

[KiwiNZ]

thinking out loud .. money grams have a maximum amount of $7000 may have been $5000 in 1997. But she knew how to transfer money via the bank as she did it for the UK, could she of been transferring money using money grams to avoid detection ?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

thanks so much for that information. Why did the bank contact her, were they doing it for sally or the police? Hadn’t she already taken all her money out by then or had she not? Do we know if her bank account was in her new name or old name?
I’m tipping that if the call by the bank was to confirm her identity (which I assume the call was for) then they would have asked her a number of security questions. Surely if the person was a fake and Marion didn’t come back to Australia, then a) the bank more than likely wouldn’t be able to contact the scammer and b) the scammer wouldn’t be able to answer security questions etc.
I’m convinced from everything we know including primarily the writing on the passenger card which looks to match marions, that Marion was withdrawing the money.

I agree with you Seriallyaddicted I think it was really Marion too. I dont think these specific questions have been answered though.

I think the bank would have been contacting Marion for themselves. After Sallys visit at the branch they would need to contact Marion (using the contact details in their system) to advise her that someone had been trying to access her information and to see if she had any concerns with the transactions on her account.

I think the account must have been in her old name. This was the account she gave Sally to put the car money into. If she changed the name on the account the bank wouldnt accept the deposit. Perhaps she kept it open after the withdrawals to receive the car money?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Cant remember which episode, but they interviewed an ex policeman who was on duty at Byron Bay police station at about that time. Didnt he say that if someone was located shortly after being reported missing, they would just write "f" for found on the paper work.

Yes, agree, thanks Garyb, marked with an F for found, fair enough. Now, going off on my own tangent here, the thing that bothers me is this ... when Sally handed over documents at the time, such as bank statements and whatever it may have been, the police would either have gone off and made copies, and given back the originals, or kept the originals ... then as the case resolved into an "occurrence", wouldn't they have forwarded the docs back, or asked Sally if she wanted to collect them? This is the stuff I think about ...... what happened to these documents, that's the thing .... if they weren't returned and they were originals, then it's highly probable they were lost along with other information. It's been said that things were lost, that's all. End of spontaneous pedantic thoughts.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Back then I remember the bank I was with had a limit on how much cash you could withdraw each day.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

thinking out loud .. money grams have a maximum amount of $7000 may have been $5000 in 1997. But she knew how to transfer money via the bank as she did it for the UK, could she of been transferring money using money grams to avoid detection ?

That's an interesting thought! Please excuse my ignorance but is a money gram like a funds transfer processed through a non-bank?

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

I agree with you Seriallyaddicted I think it was really Marion too. I dont think these specific questions have been answered though.

I think the bank would have been contacting Marion for themselves. After Sallys visit at the branch they would need to contact Marion (using the contact details in their system) to advise her that someone had been trying to access her information and to see if she had any concerns with the transactions on her account.

I think the account must have been in her old name. This was the account she gave Sally to put the car money into. If she changed the name on the account the bank wouldnt accept the deposit. Perhaps she kept it open after the withdrawals to receive the car money?

Good point about the car money potential deposit and the account being in her old name.
This makes me think, how did the bank contact her as surely her phone number would have been an old one in the system. Seems unlikely for her to have a new contact number on an account in her old name where she is withdrawing her money from and running away from.

 

[Meligator]

A little while back I messaged Sally to ask her about the mail redirection to Lesley. Her response was:
There’s nothing to suggest she had a redirection set up with Australia post - just hand written on a few things and Medicare bills c/o Lesley

It doesnt sound like Lesley received a lot of mail for Marion. Makes me wonder if Marion might have had a Po box?

Interesting point. I wonder if the person who purchased her home remembers getting mail addressed to Marion? No mail would suggest she had it redirected.

 

[Meligator]

Good point about the car money potential deposit and the account being in her old name.
This makes me think, how did the bank contact her as surely her phone number would have been an old one in the system. Seems unlikely for her to have a new contact number on an account in her old name where she is withdrawing her money from and running away from.

This is something I’m not clear on from the information given. Did the bank actually reach out to contact her? OR did the bank simply speak to her when she came in to do banking?

I kind of suspect the latter. That she came in to do banking and the bank alerted her that Sally was looking for her. This may be why Marion shared so much info with bank (starting a new life) maybe was frustrated that Sally was on to her not being in U.K. (hence hasty statements about the car money). This is also about the time Marion goes completely dark (no other banking/dr. Appointments).

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I kind of suspect the latter. That she came in to do banking and the bank alerted her that Sally was looking for her. This may be why Marion shared so much info with bank (starting a new life) maybe was frustrated that Sally was on to her not being in U.K. (hence hasty statements about the car money). This is also about the time Marion goes completely dark (no other banking/dr. Appointments).

Meligator, this reminds me of a thought I had ages ago. I had wondered if things had gotten dark by this point and Marion were protecting her children. Pure conjecture. Marion senses she's trapped and fears Sally will be hurt. Maybe even her children were used to coerce Marion to do things. She makes a big show about Sally screwing up so that all will believe she's mad at Sally. No basis for this other than my own [mother] imagination.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Question for you all: will you tell me about Lesley? Is she the friend who refuses to speak about the case? Did Marion stay with her after Marion sold her house? (I must have missed that bit.)

 

[KiwiNZ]

That's an interesting thought! Please excuse my ignorance but is a money gram like a funds transfer processed through a non-bank?

Money grams are separate from the bank, you can use companies like western union to transfer money to people overseas. You can go to western union and send money to a person and they can pick it up from the western union in their town. The limit is $7K per day (2020)

You do need ID to do this, but she could have used Florabell passport. It is traceable (by police) as they have to keep records but you would need to know that someone has done this and their name, At the time she didn't know anyone knew her new name, so maybe she thought it was less traceable than transferring from her bank account, or the perp thought it was less traceable and told her to use that method.

Long shot but I am just trying to figure what she was doing with $5K a day

Also it is high risk if you are actually steeling money from someone's account to go back to the scene of the crime every day for 3 weeks - so I think it was Marion withdrawing the money not someone else.