Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[KiwiNZ]

Question for you all: will you tell me about Lesley? Is she the friend who refuses to speak about the case? Did Marion stay with her after Marion sold her house? (I must have missed that bit.)

Yes she did stay with Lesley when she sold the house, Lesley was the one that dropped her at the bus stop.

I don't know the detail but she didn't want to speak about the case, however she did eventually do a segment on the podcast - I cant find which one someone might know - It is worth listening too, she seems very nice but came across to me as someone whom could keep a secret and respected others privacy, not sure if she knows more than she has said or if she feels now its to late to say ?

worth listening too

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Good point about the car money potential deposit and the account being in her old name.
This makes me think, how did the bank contact her as surely her phone number would have been an old one in the system. Seems unlikely for her to have a new contact number on an account in her old name where she is withdrawing her money from and running away from.

Bank customers each have a unique identification number (the banks call them different names). All accounts and services, contact details etc are linked to the customer identifier. Even if you close all your accounts and services the customer identifier will remain active for a number of years.
In those days where I worked it was procedure to update contact details for account closures because of things like direct debits which back then the customer had to cancel.

It seems really counterproductive for Marion to give the bank her new contact details if she was in the process of disappearing but perhaps these details were only short term and she was planning to move on once she sorted herself out.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Question for you all: will you tell me about Lesley? Is she the friend who refuses to speak about the case? Did Marion stay with her after Marion sold her house? (I must have missed that bit.)

Episode 14, DNA listen at the 29:21 minute mark, there's a phone call with Lesley, she sounds like a sweet lovely lady, has some good memories of her friend, Marion.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Money grams are separate from the bank, you can use companies like western union to transfer money to people overseas. You can go to western union and send money to a person and they can pick it up from the western union in their town. The limit is $7K per day (2020)

You do need ID to do this, but she could have used Florabell passport. It is traceable (by police) as they have to keep records but you would need to know that someone has done this and their name, At the time she didn't know anyone knew her new name, so maybe she thought it was less traceable than transferring from her bank account, or the perp thought it was less traceable and told her to use that method.

Long shot but I am just trying to figure what she was doing with $5K a day

Also it is high risk if you are actually steeling money from someone's account to go back to the scene of the crime every day for 3 weeks - so I think it was Marion withdrawing the money not someone else.

Thanks KiwiNZ! That's a very interesting possibility!! I have wondered a lot about why $5k everyday and not 6 or 9.5. This would make a lot of sense

 

[JLZ]

This is something I’m not clear on from the information given. Did the bank actually reach out to contact her? OR did the bank simply speak to her when she came in to do banking?

I kind of suspect the latter. That she came in to do banking and the bank alerted her that Sally was looking for her. This may be why Marion shared so much info with bank (starting a new life) maybe was frustrated that Sally was on to her not being in U.K. (hence hasty statements about the car money). This is also about the time Marion goes completely dark (no other banking/dr. Appointments).

BBM. I thought, only from previous WS comments, that the stuff about starting a new life arose at the time of the house sale. It also seems like it would be a natural observation for someone--the bank or Marion--to make under the circumstances. I imagine they asked what would be her new address, and she answered that she didn't know yet, she'd be staying with a friend for a short time and then heading overseas for some months. And no they couldn't use her business address because she was quitting her job. "Oh really? Like starting a new life!" And Marion agreed. . . .

I think there were things in Marion's life she was keeping private from Sally, but I don't see evidence of an intention of permanent estrangement. (Of course, she could have had the intention without leaving evidence, or she could have formed the intention gradually, after beginning to distance herself.)

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

This is something I’m not clear on from the information given. Did the bank actually reach out to contact her? OR did the bank simply speak to her when she came in to do banking?

I kind of suspect the latter. That she came in to do banking and the bank alerted her that Sally was looking for her. This may be why Marion shared so much info with bank (starting a new life) maybe was frustrated that Sally was on to her not being in U.K. (hence hasty statements about the car money). This is also about the time Marion goes completely dark (no other banking/dr. Appointments).

I think both may have happened?? Its not very clear but this is talked about in the first part of episode 4

In the letter Marion's Dad sent the Salvos requesting their help, he says he was told by police that Commonwealth bank security had contacted Marion by phone and that she didnt want her whereabouts known.

The Salvos investigation talks about another conversation with Marion (this time the security officer at colonial who was contacted by police on behalf of the Salvos) and this is where the 'tell them to stop looking in Byron' and 'im angry with Sally about the car money' messages come from. These messages were relayed to Marion's Dad by the Salvos during a phone conversation they had with him but dont appear to have been included in the letter the Salvos sent.

If this is the case Colonial were able to contact Marion 5 months after she closed her accounts and 7 months after her return to Australia.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I think both may have happened?? Its not very clear but this is talked about in the first part of episode 4

In the letter Marion's Dad sent the Salvos requesting their help, he says he was told by police that Commonwealth bank security had contacted Marion by phone and that she didnt want her whereabouts known.

The Salvos investigation talks about another conversation with Marion (this time the security officer at colonial who was contacted by police on behalf of the Salvos) and this is where the 'tell them to stop looking in Byron' and 'im angry with Sally about the car money' messages come from. These messages were relayed to Marion's Dad by the Salvos during a phone conversation they had with him but dont appear to have been included in the letter the Salvos sent.

If this is the case Colonial were able to contact Marion 5 months after she closed her accounts and 7 months after her return to Australia.

7 month is along time to go without contacting your family, if we assume that the bank did contact her and it was her.

although her cover had been blown by her family, she knew they knew she was back at the 5 month mark, but 5 months is still along time to go without making contact, even if she pretended she was overseas she could have contacted them.

If they had her number that she must of supplied, then I would say it was her that spoke to them if / when they called, a perp would not keep the same phone number of someone they killed, the killer or accomplice had also to be a women.

I feel this case is strange enough with adding a women to the mix it starts to go from farfetched to absurd. I am back to disappeared of own accorded now lol

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

7 month is along time to go without contacting your family, if we assume that the bank did contact her and it was her.

although her cover had been blown by her family, she knew they knew she was back at the 5 month mark, but 5 months is still along time to go without making contact, even if she pretended she was overseas she could have contacted them.

If they had her number that she must of supplied, then I would say it was her that spoke to them if / when they called, a perp would not keep the same phone number of someone they killed, the killer or accomplice had also to be a women.

I feel this case is strange enough with adding a women to the mix it starts to go from farfetched to absurd. I am back to disappeared of own accorded now lol

Im wondering if the 1998 Salvation Army enquiry to the police who tell them that they spoke to someone at the bank was just the same event where the police spoke to the bank in October 1997. Remember Sally got confused about commonwealth bank and colonial on the podcast, this might be that same issue. See below timeline, I think the bank names might be wrong here and it’s the same bank and same bank person who spoke to Marion.
If so this would mean Marion arrived back in Australia at the start of august, but hadn’t finished getting money out of her account until mid October, so say 11 weeks. That’s a long time.

From the channel 7 timeline on their website:

1997 August – September: Over three and a half weeks, someone withdraws $5,000 every day from Marion’s Commonwealth Bank account at the Byron Bay branch and the Burleigh Heads branch on the Gold Coast.

1997 October 21: Sally calls Owen to see if Marion contacted him for his birthday on the 18th – she hadn’t. Sally then calls the Commonwealth Bank and learns of the $5,000 being withdrawn from Marion's account in Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads.

1997 October 22: Sally travels to Byron Bay to canvas locals with a photo of Marion. Sally is suspicious the teller at the Commonwealth seemed to know something they weren’t saying after seeing Marion’s picture and making a copy of it. Sally reports Marion missing with Byron Bay police.

1997 October: Sally receives a call from Byron Bay police, who tell her they had located Marion and she didn’t want anyone to know where she was or what she was doing.

1998 February: Marion’s Father Jack (John) Wilson asks the Salvation Army Missing Persons Bureau for help to find Marion.

1998 March 18: The SA Missing Persons Bureau writes to Jack Wilson claiming they spoke to a Police Missing Person’s officer, who in turn spoke with a security officer at Colonial State bank, who claimed Marion withdrew the balance of her account at the Ashmore branch on October 15, 1990 (Note: i think they mean 1997) and 'spoke of starting a new life'.
February: Marion’s Father Jack (John) Wilson asks the Salvation Army Missing Persons Bureau for help to find Marion.

1998 March 18: The SA Missing Persons Bureau writes to Jack Wilson claiming they spoke to a Police Missing Person’s officer, who in turn spoke with a security officer at Colonial State bank, who claimed Marion withdrew the balance of her account at the Ashmore branch on October 15, 1990, and 'spoke of starting a new life'.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

"New information indicating that missing woman Marion Barter may not have returned to Australia has raised questions over who she was" . They wouldn't have made this announcement if there wasn't something to it, some recent discovery must have been made either by the police, or yes, that clue in the magazine from LA. Maybe it is all an identity theft case, possibly all set into train with the stolen wallet? Hypothetically, if Marion met with an accident/foul play overseas and had no identity on her at the time she could have become a Jane Doe, God forbid, but it is a possible scenario, and someone else has returned using her identity. Of course she would have needed to have checked into a hotel with someone else and their name registered for her accommodation. Possible? Or identified as someone else by said 'friend', then there would be no Jane Doe? End of spontaneous Thursday morning thought.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

"New information indicating that missing woman Marion Barter may not have returned to Australia has raised questions over who she was" . They wouldn't have made this announcement if there wasn't something to it, some recent discovery must have been made either by the police, or yes, that clue in the magazine from LA. Maybe it is all an identity theft case, possibly all set into train with the stolen wallet? Hypothetically, if Marion met with an accident/foul play overseas and had no identity on her at the time she could have become a Jane Doe, God forbid, but it is a possible scenario, and someone else has returned using her identity. Of course she would have needed to have checked into a hotel with someone else and their name registered for her accommodation. Possible? Or identified as someone else by said 'friend', then there would be no Jane Doe? End of spontaneous Thursday morning thought.

Don’t you think though that latest article is a bit weird how that first paragraph doesn’t really relate to the rest of the article? It’s just like thrown in at the start then the article goes on to talk about the Johnny Warren relationship which has nothing to do with her disappearance as it was years prior she was married to him.
If there was ground breaking new information don’t you think the article would be about it - it may not have to say exactly what the new information is but at least talk about what it means in regards to everything else we know.
I just find the writing on the passenger card very similar to hers and a hand writing expert has said it is hers. A scammer could have forged her writing but there would be absolutely no need to do this, only for her signature - customs don’t know her handwriting only the signature. Anyone can fill out the passenger card right? It’s just the signature that is the issue. My partner always fills out my passenger card info!
Anyhow I’m happy to be proven wrong on all of this, just my thoughts for now!

 

[StarrChance]

Don’t you think though that latest article is a bit weird how that first paragraph doesn’t really relate to the rest of the article? It’s just like thrown in at the start then the article goes on to talk about the Johnny Warren relationship which has nothing to do with her disappearance as it was years prior she was married to him.
If there was ground breaking new information don’t you think the article would be about it - it may not have to say exactly what the new information is but at least talk about what it means in regards to everything else we know.
I just find the writing on the passenger card very similar to hers and a hand writing expert has said it is hers. A scammer could have forged her writing but there would be absolutely no need to do this, only for her signature - customs don’t know her handwriting only the signature. Anyone can fill out the passenger card right? It’s just the signature that is the issue. My partner always fills out my passenger card info!
Anyhow I’m happy to be proven wrong on all of this, just my thoughts for now!

Very disappointing no mention of why they believe this,felt like “click bait” and a infomercial for the tavern.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Very disappointing no mention of why they believe this,felt like “click bait” and a infomercial for the tavern.

Could be click bait, sure, but then again maybe it's all the police have allowed to be released at this stage; who knows.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

Could be click bait, sure, but then again maybe it's all the police have allowed to be released at this stage; who knows.

Agree it could be new evidence but surely channel 7 would have done an update on it saying Sally has been told there is new evidence that Marion never came back to Australia, detectives are working hard on the case, we are unable to reveal information at this stage, etc
But we got one paragraph leading into something that doesn’t even relate to it. Really weird.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Don’t you think though that latest article is a bit weird how that first paragraph doesn’t really relate to the rest of the article? It’s just like thrown in at the start then the article goes on to talk about the Johnny Warren relationship which has nothing to do with her disappearance as it was years prior she was married to him.
If there was ground breaking new information don’t you think the article would be about it - it may not have to say exactly what the new information is but at least talk about what it means in regards to everything else we know.
I just find the writing on the passenger card very similar to hers and a hand writing expert has said it is hers. A scammer could have forged her writing but there would be absolutely no need to do this, only for her signature - customs don’t know her handwriting only the signature. Anyone can fill out the passenger card right? It’s just the signature that is the issue. My partner always fills out my passenger card info!
Anyhow I’m happy to be proven wrong on all of this, just my thoughts for now!

I agree a random persons writing would not even be close to Marion's, other than her signature, its hardly a thing you would practice / study for an arrivals card.

I am convinced it was Marion due to the handwriting, and I have no doubt that the bank will have made contact with her (at least once) when the police had asked them to, that's not something the bank takes lightly.

so far I don't think anything points to Marion not returning but in the podcast Gary did elude to the fact that it may not have been Marions handwriting but that was contradictory to what the 2nd handwriting analysis said, and the first guy was non comital.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I agree a random persons writing would not even be close to Marion's, other than her signature, its hardly a thing you would practice / study for an arrivals card.

I am convinced it was Marion due to the handwriting, and I have no doubt that the bank will have made contact with her (at least once) when the police had asked them to, that's not something the bank takes lightly.

so far I don't think anything points to Marion not returning but in the podcast Gary did elude to the fact that it may not have been Marions handwriting but that was contradictory to what the 2nd handwriting analysis said, and the first guy was non comital.

One expert said they couldn't say it was Marion's and the other said it was Marion's, so you need a tie-breaker, a third opinion, at the very least. Have a look at the figure 2 on the passenger card and then look at the number 2 on the visitor sign on book when Marion went to dinner at Mandy's. It's got a loop, and no loop on passenger card. Maybe we could get a screenshot of all the handwriting samples together to compare in one shot, would be easier to make a comparison.

 

[KiwiNZ]

One expert said they couldn't say it was Marion's and the other said it was Marion's, so you need a tie-breaker, a third opinion, at the very least. Have a look at the figure 2 on the passenger card and then look at the number 2 on the visitor sign on book when Marion went to dinner at Mandy's. It's got a loop, and no loop on passenger card. Maybe we could get a screenshot of all the handwriting samples together to compare in one shot, would be easier to make a comparison.

Agree can we have a tie breaker please lol you would think they would have though of that.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

"New information indicating that missing woman Marion Barter may not have returned to Australia has raised questions over who she was" . They wouldn't have made this announcement if there wasn't something to it, some recent discovery must have been made either by the police, or yes, that clue in the magazine from LA. Maybe it is all an identity theft case, possibly all set into train with the stolen wallet? Hypothetically, if Marion met with an accident/foul play overseas and had no identity on her at the time she could have become a Jane Doe, God forbid, but it is a possible scenario, and someone else has returned using her identity. Of course she would have needed to have checked into a hotel with someone else and their name registered for her accommodation. Possible? Or identified as someone else by said 'friend', then there would be no Jane Doe? End of spontaneous Thursday morning thought.

I felt a bit scammed by this. I watched the clip and theres nothing in it about this new information. It's a really lovely clip though.

This is a perplexing statement - what new information I wonder?? I thought Sally made it fairly clear in the last episode that she couldnt share information anymore so parhaps they are referring to the passenger card??

The 28 days the police had to appeal the NCAT decision has passed. I'll be interested to see if any information from the extra released documents is shared - I suspect it wont because of the new police investigation. Hope I'm wrong though - I really want to know what is in Gary's 2011 memo!!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Could be click bait, sure, but then again maybe it's all the police have allowed to be released at this stage; who knows.

I think police will distance their investigation as far from the podcast as possible. They need people to be able to share what they know (or think they know) without being chased down by Bryan and Allison.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I felt a bit scammed by this. I watched the clip and theres nothing in it about this new information. It's a really lovely clip though.

This is a perplexing statement - what new information I wonder?? I thought Sally made it fairly clear in the last episode that she couldnt share information anymore so parhaps they are referring to the passenger card??

The 28 days the police had to appeal the NCAT decision has passed. I'll be interested to see if any information from the extra released documents is shared - I suspect it wont because of the new police investigation. Hope I'm wrong though - I really want to know what is in Gary's 2011 memo!!

correct me if I am wrong but all of the information released by the NCAT decision will now be public knowledge so they are free to share any of that information as I assume it was deemed not to break any privacy laws or would hinder a future prosecution should one take place.

In a case I was following the UK once you have a ruling on releasing information under the freedom of information act anyone could have access to it not just the victims or requestors.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Ah ha! I think I've figured it out ... could the "new information" be from Episode 16 where it's mentioned that Kristina, having checked the flight details, said it would not have been possible for Marion to be back in Australia on August the 2nd after making the call from Tunbridge Wells. H'mm, maybe that's it ... probably is.