Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[KiwiNZ]

Ah ha! I think I've figured it out ... could the "new information" be from Episode 16 where it's mentioned that Kristina, having checked the flight details, said it would not have been possible for Marion to be back in Australia on August the 2nd after making the call from Tunbridge Wells. H'mm, maybe that's it ... probably is.

I agree it's impossible to make that call from the UK and be on that flight, however Sally has no evidence she received the call the day she thinks she did or that the call was made from the UK. So to lead us down a track where 2 critical factors can not be backed up
(unless they have some new evidence but I cant think what that could be) would be a bit silly. IMO

But agree with you that is probably what they were leading into …

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

correct me if I am wrong but all of the information released by the NCAT decision will now be public knowledge so they are free to share any of that information as I assume it was deemed not to break any privacy laws or would hinder a future prosecution should one take place.

In a case I was following the UK once you have a ruling on releasing information under the freedom of information act anyone could have access to it not just the victims or requestors.

Yes you're absolutely right. What was i thinking is that now that there is a formal active police investigation who are working with Sally, she may need to stop sharing information and the podcast may need to suspend their own investigations.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes you're absolutely right. What was i thinking is that now that there is a formal active police investigation who are working with Sally, she may need to stop sharing information and the podcast may need to suspend their own investigations.

Oh yes - I agree I don't think the police will want the podcast involved or Sally sharing information. The podcast are probably at a loose end now trying to pull together their own theories and how to keep this going

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

One expert said they couldn't say it was Marion's and the other said it was Marion's, so you need a tie-breaker, a third opinion, at the very least. Have a look at the figure 2 on the passenger card and then look at the number 2 on the visitor sign on book when Marion went to dinner at Mandy's. It's got a loop, and no loop on passenger card. Maybe we could get a screenshot of all the handwriting samples together to compare in one shot, would be easier to make a comparison.

Didn’t the first expert say he needs more samples of marions handwriting before he could look into it? I don’t think he really made a assessment on it.
It’s rediculous the podcast didn’t give him lots of examples of marions handwriting, sally has examples. Why didn’t they go back with the different examples of her writing.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Didn’t the first expert say he needs more samples of marions handwriting before he could look into it? I don’t think he really made a assessment on it.
It’s rediculous the podcast didn’t give him lots of examples of marions handwriting, sally has examples. Why didn’t they go back with the different examples of her writing.

Agree - this is the ONLY clue / evidence they have of Marion's movements you would have thought they would have gone as far as they could to work out if it was her handwriting, its kind of import to the case since they have really nothing other than guess work.

guy number one said - samples supplied were lower case and not enough upper case to compare against the passenger card which was upper case. I think even a novice would know that wasn't going to be the best comparison.

Guy number two said -( and we don't know what they gave him, they may have learnt from their first mistake) his opinion was it was Marion's handwriting.

Even Sallys says she believes some of it (apart from the aircraft number) was written by her mother, which means she believes it was her mother on the flight. So If the podcast go in a different direction (not Marion) it is actual against what Sally believes and lacks any evidence to say it was not her.

 

[Sillybilly]

Just jumping in to bump Tricia's post from earlier this week.

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Thank you,
Tricia

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Didn’t the first expert say he needs more samples of marions handwriting before he could look into it? I don’t think he really made a assessment on it.
It’s rediculous the podcast didn’t give him lots of examples of marions handwriting, sally has examples. Why didn’t they go back with the different examples of her writing.

I think the handwriting samples needed to be fairly recent for the comparison, so there probably weren't many, or any samples of Marion writing in full capitals as opposed to script. The only script on the passenger card was the signature in a name that Marion had never used before, so that'd be a bit tricky comparing .... just my thoughts though. We do have the old passenger card of Marion's from the 60's to look at, but probably too dated for comparison.

 

[Rosalita]

Hi sleuthers,

This is a bit long + confusing so be patient with me . .

Find unclaimed money | ASIC's MoneySmart

Type in Marion Barter on this ASIC search page and you’ll bring up the $14889.70 unclaimed funds. Click on the cross where it says ‘more details’ and you’ll see it says Money From: Commonwealth Bank of Australia. The ‘Last known address (account/owner)’ box states ‘Barclays Bank mint St Rye…’

Now just for a comparison type in a different common name to this search page and see how the listings are set out. The ‘last known address’ section is usually just a street address or a Post office box as you would expect. In Marion’s case it’s a street address for a UK bank, so this is what has caused the confusion, its making it look at first glance like Marion had a Barclays account.

These unclaimed funds of $14889.70 refer to an amount sent to ASIC from the Commonwealth Bank, not from Barclays in the UK. The Barclays Mint St address was (for reasons not clear) a contact address for this Commonwealth bank account. CBA is affiliated with Barclays so not sure if this was an address suggested to Marion by CBA as a temporary UK address to use when overseas.

It is mentioned very briefly by Sally in the end of this conversations episode;

Conversations 12 at about 47.30 mins

‘Barclays Bank Mint St in Rye was my mum’s nominated address in the UK, so not the fact that the money was sitting in Barclays Bank but that my mum’s address in the UK was listed as Mint St on Rye which is a Barclays Bank. And the money was not actually sitting in the bank as we first thought, turns out the CBA has affiliates with banks throughout the world and Barclays Bank is the one for the UK’

So Marion never had a UK bank account. Well not one that we know of anyway. This was just money held in a Commonwealth Bank account returned to ASIC as unclaimed as per the usual process, but with an unusual and confusing contact address for the account holder.

Thoughts?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I think the handwriting samples needed to be fairly recent for the comparison, so there probably weren't many, or any samples of Marion writing in full capitals as opposed to script. The only script on the passenger card was the signature in a name that Marion had never used before, so that'd be a bit tricky comparing .... just my thoughts though. We do have the old passenger card of Marion's from the 60's to look at, but probably too dated for comparison.

I think the 2nd guys said - and I will have to listen again. The things they look for are not the hand writing itself its those subconscious elements we add to letters that we don't even know we do, even in the event we are trying to disguises our handwriting and these things don't tend to change over time, even if your style of handwriting does. Lots of people have been convicted while trying to fraudulently copy someone handwriting only to give away it was them in small clues in the way they form particular letters, even when trying not. even down to where you start the letter I start and R from the top for example, some people start from the bottom up.

But I agree they probably thought resent was the most appropriate to send but I would have sent everything I had including past visitor cards as they have the word Australia on

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Hi sleuthers,

This is a bit long + confusing so be patient with me . .

Find unclaimed money | ASIC's MoneySmart

Type in Marion Barter on this ASIC search page and you’ll bring up the $14889.70 unclaimed funds. Click on the cross where it says ‘more details’ and you’ll see it says Money From: Commonwealth Bank of Australia. The ‘Last known address (account/owner)’ box states ‘Barclays Bank mint St Rye…’

Now just for a comparison type in a different common name to this search page and see how the listings are set out. The ‘last known address’ section is usually just a street address or a Post office box as you would expect. In Marion’s case it’s a street address for a UK bank, so this is what has caused the confusion, its making it look at first glance like Marion had a Barclays account.

These unclaimed funds of $14889.70 refer to an amount sent to ASIC from the Commonwealth Bank, not from Barclays in the UK. The Barclays Mint St address was (for reasons not clear) a contact address for this Commonwealth bank account. CBA is affiliated with Barclays so not sure if this was an address suggested to Marion by CBA as a temporary UK address to use when overseas.

It is mentioned very briefly by Sally in the end of this conversations episode;

Conversations 12 at about 47.30 mins

‘Barclays Bank Mint St in Rye was my mum’s nominated address in the UK, so not the fact that the money was sitting in Barclays Bank but that my mum’s address in the UK was listed as Mint St on Rye which is a Barclays Bank. And the money was not actually sitting in the bank as we first thought, turns out the CBA has affiliates with banks throughout the world and Barclays Bank is the one for the UK’

So Marion never had a UK bank account. Well not one that we know of anyway. This was just money held in a Commonwealth Bank account returned to ASIC as unclaimed as per the usual process, but with an unusual and confusing contact address for the account holder.

Thoughts?

Yes! Barclays was just the clearing agent (for foreign cash in the UK) for CBA. I think the address in Rye more likely relates to Barclays internal processing (their clearing account for agent transactions) rather than Marion's nominated branch. It's a pity we dont know more about the transaction. The funds could have been cash or travellers cheques purchased in Australia to be collected in the UK, she could even have been carrying a draft.

I think Marion may have had problems accessing her UK money. Her CBA accounts were in the name of Marion Barter but once she was in the UK her identification was in the name of Florabella. It's strange that she didnt redeem the money via the CBA when she came back to Australia. She was at a CBA branch every day for 3 weeks it wouldnt have been difficult to organize.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

I think the handwriting samples needed to be fairly recent for the comparison, so there probably weren't many, or any samples of Marion writing in full capitals as opposed to script. The only script on the passenger card was the signature in a name that Marion had never used before, so that'd be a bit tricky comparing .... just my thoughts though. We do have the old passenger card of Marion's from the 60's to look at, but probably too dated for comparison.

Sally had postcards sent to her and others that have capital letters on the address and words such as ‘Australia’ written in capitals look exactly the same as the same word ‘Australia’ written on the passenger card. These postcards were written just weeks before she wrote the passenger card.
Why weren’t these given to expert number 1?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Sussex area obviously has some meaning to Marion as typically a banks nominated address would be their head office, London branch ? Its not a coincidence she ended up in the same area as the banks nominated address, I think she likely said this was the area she was spending her time in, so they used a local agent / address … as other have point out strange place to holiday unless you know someone.

 

[Rosalita]

I’ve been looking at newspapers.com and it looks like Tunbridge Wells, Rye, Brighton and Alfriston were all promoted as destinations in the Sunday Sydney Morning Herald Travel and Holiday sections in the early to mid 90’s. It was promoted as a cheaper and more peaceful/beautiful accomodation option than London hotels. You can see the article headlines without a subscription. For example I found:

‘Inn and around England’ April 21st 1996 which promotes a driving tour taking in both Alfriston and Rye

‘It’s Sussex near the sea for me’ August 30th 1992 which promotes Sussex including Rye which it says ‘the streets are lined with antiques and craft shops and some fine restaurants’

‘Smugglers and murders most foul’ 5th March 1995 which is all about Rye, saying it has attracted royal visits, artists and writers.

‘Following in Winnie the Pooh’s Footsteps’ March 13th1994 which is all about Tunbridge Wells and following the path of the famous children’s author A.A. Milne.

‘A Novel Tour – Jane Austen’s England’ June 8th1996 which details all locations realting to Jane Austen (I think Marion mentioned to family she wanted to do this). This doesn’t include Sussex but suggests she might have been gathering travel ideas from newspapers.

There are also multiple features from the SMH and The Age promoting the style, sophistication and romance of the Orient Express.

Then there's a Shakespeare connection to Rye which she might have read about, and various classical music performances and festivals in the summer months (June to August) across Sussex.

Getting carried away, I’d love to hear if anyone can find anything else Marion might have been inspired by if she read the Sunday papers

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

Yes! Barclays was just the clearing agent (for foreign cash in the UK) for CBA. I think the address in Rye more likely relates to Barclays internal processing (their clearing account for agent transactions) rather than Marion's nominated branch. It's a pity we dont know more about the transaction. The funds could have been cash or travellers cheques purchased in Australia to be collected in the UK, she could even have been carrying a draft.

I think Marion may have had problems accessing her UK money. Her CBA accounts were in the name of Marion Barter but once she was in the UK her identification was in the name of Florabella. It's strange that she didnt redeem the money via the CBA when she came back to Australia. She was at a CBA branch every day for 3 weeks it wouldnt have been difficult to organize.

Interesting point about Marion possibly having problems with accessing her $ due to her name change. I’m sure they would have needed a passport at Barklay’s for that and she didn’t have a current one for Marion.
I wonder if this was why she came back to Australia so quickly.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Cant remember which episode, but they interviewed an ex policeman who was on duty at Byron Bay police station at about that time. Didnt he say that if someone was located shortly after being reported missing, they would just write "f" for found on the paper work.

I found the episode. Its in conversations #3 (2.5 mins to 4.05min). A retired police officer of 25 years service who worked missing persons. She said calls to families about located people (who had vetoed information being shared) were often not recorded. The file was often just marked located. The paperwork was stored in boxes and destroyed after 6 years

 

[KiwiNZ]

Interesting point about Marion possibly having problems with accessing her $ due to her name change. I’m sure they would have needed a passport at Barklay’s for that and she didn’t have a current one for Marion.
I wonder if this was why she came back to Australia so quickly.

I agree I don't think she could access her money in the UK with her Florabella passport, and the UK would require your passport to confirm your ID if you were not a UK resident or a regular customer of that bank. I think the $14889.70 left from the $20K she transferred ( not sure how we know it was $20K) is less the fee's as I doubt the holding account would have been collecting any interest.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I am sure someone in the Bank (aus) would remember this incident and has likely heard the podcast or been told of the podcast / case, I doubt they would come forward to the podcast team or Sally directly, I just hope they will have gone to the police with what they remember

 

[RossCandyfloss]

Did I imagine this or was Marion's original reason for heading to Tunbridge Wells because of a relative - an aunt? (Apologies if I was distracted when this was discussed and cleared up).

Personally, I find the whole trip to the UK a little contrived. "I'm having tea and scones with some little old ladies" sounds like a Murder, She Wrote episode set in England, where red London buses trundle past thatched cottages, brass bands play under bunting and everybody dresses like it's 1927. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that if she was planning to go dark, she'd already be leaving a false trail for her family and friends.

When Marion re-enters Australia under a new identity, do the large withdrawals from her bank account signify moving funds over to the one set up in this new name? She wasn't necessarily taking cash out under duress, as it could appear, just tidying up the last few financial loose ends before starting life under a new identity.

 

[sunnynz]

Personally, I find the whole trip to the UK a little contrived. "I'm having tea and scones with some little old ladies" sounds like a Murder, She Wrote episode set in England, where red London buses trundle past thatched cottages, brass bands play under bunting and everybody dresses like it's 1927. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that if she was planning to go dark, she'd already be leaving a false trail for her family and friends.

RSBM Totally! This destination has always seemed a decidedly odd one to choose to spend a lot of time holidaying, when you think of the myriad other places to choose from in the UK and Europe. She had already started to not tell her family the truth (name change) so unless someone finds proof Marion was actually in Tunbridge Wells then we have to take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I am sure someone in the Bank (aus) would remember this incident and has likely heard the podcast or been told of the podcast / case, I doubt they would come forward to the podcast team or Sally directly, I just hope they will have gone to the police with what they remember

I not sure anyone at the bank would remember this. Foreign cash transactions are common activities. Once the teller had worked out with Marion the product she wanted (cash, draft, travellers cheque) they would have processed the activity like any other (10-15mins) and gotten on with their day. I know it sounds like such a lot of money but $20k isnt an uncommon or surprising value for that type of transaction. When the money became unclaimed 7 years later it would have gone to centralized processing not the branch. The bank would have the records though and hopefully police have them.